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Will NATO commit itself in defence of Poland?


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IronsideThreads: 59
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Edited by: Ironside  Jan 2, 11, 07:11    #1
My discussion with fuzz get me thinking. Our pact with France and Germany had a precise plan military of help those two powers had supposed to provide to Poland,yet real action was postponed till 21st of September and after Soviets invaded, they just let it go!
I wonder would NATO do the same in some hypothetical scenario ?
I know what to think - do you?
discus ......
red

PlasticPoleThreads: 10
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Edited by: PlasticPole  Jan 2, 11, 07:19    #2
It's a frightening scenario...an actual war with Russia...but I doubt NATO would turn it's back on a member since it's a treaty and all. It's not like it's the UN and people are voting on resolutions...it's an actual treaty.
Chicago PollockThreads: 10
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 Jan 2, 11, 07:23    #3
you mean will Poland commit to its own defense?
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
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Edited by: PlasticPole  Jan 2, 11, 07:31    #4
Chicago Pollock:
you mean will Poland commit to its own defense?

Well, yeah, and other members of NATO will too, even though NATO is far more than just a defense against the Russians these days. Since the Soviet Union is no longer here , the question is, is NATO even valid anymore?
Chicago PollockThreads: 10
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 Jan 2, 11, 07:33    #5
Was Poland prepared (committed) in 1939?
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jan 2, 11, 08:40    #6
Chicago Pollock:
you mean will Poland commit to its own defense?

eh? no? what is the NATO for ? All Poland got is committed for NATO and USA benefit !

Chicago Pollock:
Was Poland prepared (committed) in 1939?

Don't you know? Absolutely, Poland was prepared, what kind of question is this?

Point is a Polish treaty with France and Britain was even more precise than a treaty with NATO.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Jan 2, 11, 17:11    #7
Ironside:
Absolutely, Poland was prepared, what kind of question is this?


Actually, Poland wasn't prepared. It was gearing up for war, yes - but wasn't prepared.
PennBoyThreads: 157
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 Jan 2, 11, 17:19    #8
Ironside:
Will NATO commit itself in defence of Poland?

NATO can't defend a river barge with refugees.
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jan 3, 11, 00:14    #9
delphiandomine:
Actually, Poland wasn't prepared. It was gearing up for war, yes - but wasn't prepared.

Was as prepared as she could in the circumstances !

PennBoy:
NATO can't defend a river barge with refugees.

What about USA then ?
KevwadThreads: 1
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 Jan 3, 11, 00:34    #10
Chicago Pollock:
Was Poland prepared (committed) in 1939?

Poland was supposed to mobilize it's army a month before the German attacked, but Britain and France told them "Don't worry because we have a treaty the Germans won't attack you".
Chicago PollockThreads: 10
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 Jan 3, 11, 02:46    #11
Ironside:
Don't you know? Absolutely, Poland was prepared, what kind of question is this?

Point is a Polish treaty with France and Britain was even more precise than a treaty with NATO.



Kevwad:
Poland was supposed to mobilize it's army a month before the German attacked, but Britain and France told them "Don't worry because we have a treaty the Germans won't attack you".


The point I am trying to make is that Poland is too interested in these so called defense treaties with other countries. The other countries are only going to do what they can and what is ultimately in their interest. After WWI both England and France were in no condition to take on Germany militarily as was evidenced at Dunkirk.

Poland needs to get it in their collective heads that no one is going to bail them out. They need to depend on themselves. What is Poland doing now to defend themselves from an attack from another country?
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jan 3, 11, 03:10    #12
Chicago Pollock:


Poland needs to get it in their collective heads that no one is going to bail them out. They need to depend on themselves.

Absolutely !

Chicago Pollock:
What is Poland doing now to defend themselves from an attack from another country?

Nothing really !
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jan 3, 11, 03:12    #13
What CAN they do?
Chicago PollockThreads: 10
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 Jan 3, 11, 03:45    #14
Bratwurst Boy:
What CAN they do?


Okay, here's a start. Largest army in Europe is...you guessed it. Switzerland @ 122,000. So Poland should develop reserve army (bring back AK). Operate 'em like American National Guard. Start by drafting the unemployed. Base them out of the provinces, have them do basic securty details around Poland, do public works projects, roads, bridges, water systems, etc. Instead of buying NATO small arms, build your own. Build your own jets, helicopters. No they won't be the best but it's a start to develop your own technology.

Unfortunately, when I read news about Poland it's always about some alliance with some foreign power. Poland needs to focus on Poland.
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 Jan 3, 11, 03:49    #15
Chicago Pollock:
Start by drafting the unemployed. Base them out of the provinces, have them do basic securty details around Poland, do public works projects, roads, bridges, water systems, etc.

I dunno man that seams like alot of work, who's gonna wanna work hard like that for what the army pays.
FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12
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 Jan 3, 11, 07:44    #16
ironside wrote:

What about USA then ?

what about them?
kondziorThreads: 2
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 Jan 3, 11, 12:15    #17
Chicago Pollock:
Poland needs to get it in their collective heads that no one is going to bail them out. They need to depend on themselves. What is Poland doing now to defend themselves from an attack from another country?

The problem being, Poland cannot defeat Russia on her own. Not if Russia is really committed. There is too damn many of them. We don't have enough people and hardware to even occupy Russian territory, so we cannot dream about straight out military victory.
I believe that we could inflict much more harm on the Russian army then her generals, in their worst nightmares, think it is possible, but if they are really committed, if they buckle up and keep coming, they can soak everything we can possibly throw at them.
Thats why Poland needs these so called defense treaties with other countries. Sure, it would be the best case if no war with Russia ever breaks up (and solid treaties can help with that too), but one cannot build defense strategies based on his hopes alone.
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jan 3, 11, 15:10    #18
FUZZYWICKETS:
what about them?

Will they commit themselves ?
FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12
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 Jan 3, 11, 15:17    #19
ironside wrote:

Will they commit themselves ?

to what?
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jan 3, 11, 15:40    #20
FUZZYWICKETS:
to what?

to defense of Poland
kondziorThreads: 2
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Edited by: kondzior  Jan 3, 11, 16:46    #21
US? Let's just hope Obama is no longer at the office at such a time...

No one is going to defend Poles if we lay down and let ourselves to be overrun. If we, however, keep fighting, they may send some reinforcements. Then something more.
Or they may not. Who knows? But without NATO no one is going to come with help for sure. No "if"s or "maybe"s. Why would they?
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jan 3, 11, 16:56    #22
kondzior:
no one is going to come with help for sure.


As keep saying there is always China.
guesswhoThreads: 23
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 Jan 3, 11, 17:01    #23
Ironside:
No one is going to defend Poles if we lay down and let ourselves to be overrun.


Being a part of NATO is a serious commitment and I'm absolutely convinced that you'll get help from us in case of war. Then again, I don't see any thread from anyone at the moment and if then it will be more like a terrorist attack and not a war.
HarryThreads: 62
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 Jan 3, 11, 17:18    #24
Ironside:
Our pact with France and Germany had a precise plan military of help those two powers had supposed to provide to Poland

The fact that you think that Poland had a military pact with Germany before WWII tells us pretty much all that we need to know about your knowledge of history.

Ironside:
after Soviets invaded, they just let it go!

The Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland specifically referred to "European power" so as to exclude the USSR. And it also said "Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power" but Poland did not become engaged in hostilities with the USSR: Polish troops were ordered not to fire upon Soviet troops unless they were fired on first.

Ironside:
Point is a Polish treaty with France and Britain was even more precise than a treaty with NATO.

No it wasn't. For a start, Poland did not have a treaty with France and Britain: Poland had a treaty with France and a treaty with Britain, there was no three-party treaty. And if you wanted to claim that the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland is more precise than the North Atlantic Treaty, you'd be lying.

Ironside:
Was as prepared as she could in the circumstances !

One might have thought that in Poland's position it would have been a good idea to build alliances with her immediate neighbours. But instead in the year before the war she invaded one neighbour and threatened to invade another if it did not agree to her illegal annexation of that state's territory. Hardly preparing as well as possible.
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jan 5, 11, 00:39    #25
[quote=guesswho]
Being a part of NATO is a serious commitment and I'm absolutely convinced that you'll get help from us in case of war.[/quote/]
Are you willing to bet your life on this ?
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
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 Jan 5, 11, 00:42    #26
Ironside:
As keep saying there is always China.

China's not in NATO
warszawskiThreads: 60
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 Jan 5, 11, 01:08    #27
PlasticPole:
Well, yeah, and other members of NATO will too, even though NATO is far more than just a defense against the Russians these days.


So what is the real threat to Poland ( 2011 ), with the exception of the next invasion of STD carrying English language teachers.
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Jan 5, 11, 01:37    #28
PlasticPole:
China's not in NATO


Good point !
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
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 Jan 5, 11, 05:07    #29
warszawski:

So what is the real threat to Poland ( 2011 ), with the exception of the next invasion of STD carrying English language teachers.

Your guess is as good as mine.
Chicago PollockThreads: 10
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 Jan 5, 11, 05:59    #30
kondzior:
The problem being, Poland cannot defeat Russia on her own. Not if Russia is really committed. There is too damn many of them. We don't have enough people and hardware to even occupy Russian territory, so we cannot dream about straight out military victory.
I believe that we could inflict much more harm on the Russian army then her generals, in their worst nightmares, think it is possible, but if they are really committed, if they buckle up and keep coming, they can soak everything we can possibly throw at them.
Thats why Poland needs these so called defense treaties with other countries. Sure, it would be the best case if no war with Russia ever breaks up (and solid treaties can help with that too), but one cannot build defense strategies based on his hopes alone.


You're not seeing the forest due to the trees. Yes, Russian out mans Poland but that didn't stop the Poles in 1920-22 from defeating the Russian Bolsheviks. In 1939 Switzerland was no match for Germany but they built a defense army of a half of million and shot down every German plane invading Swiss airspace. This sent a message to Germany that if they invaded, the Germans would get more than a bloody nose. Poland needs to send the same message.

[quote=warszawski]So what is the real threat to Poland ( 2011 ), with the exception of the next invasion of STD carrying English language teachers.[/quoter]

Wars start a lot faster than you can raise an army. Ask the Georgians.


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