Is NORD STREAM dangerous for Poland's natural enviroment?

♂

Edited by: Prince Feb 15, 09, 13:52 #151

lesser:

Gazprom own 50% of RosUkrEnergo, the rest is owned by Naftogas Ukraine. While the author blame just Gazprom, RP is a mouthpiece of PiS. Gazprom don't own or control Ukrainian pipeline system. Gazprom might claim that they already send this gas, while we signed contract with RosUkrEnergo. We, still don't know who is to blame.

Gazprom don't even try to accuse Ukrianians for stealing gas :) you dumb ass :))

In result of agreement between two companies Gazprom and EuroRusGas (owned in 50% by Gazprom) we don't have gas. We have paid for ...

Gasprom tells us ... give us your pipe lines there will be gas

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07 ♂	Feb 15, 09, 13:55 #152
RosUKREnergo is also 50% owned by Naftogas which is Ukrainian state owned company. This is classical deadlock. Is the glass half empty or half full? Stop being such a hypocrite.

♂

Edited by: Prince Feb 15, 09, 13:58 #153

Agreemant which caused that RusUkrEnergo is being out of businsess has been made between Gazprom and this company (RusUkrEnergo) ... which is owned in 50 % by Gazprom.

So in result of agreement between comany owned in 50% by Gazprom and Gazprom we don't have gas. They don't accuse Ukrianians for stealing gas... EU inspectors are in Ukraine. Russians don't send gas which we paid for.

Read something about problems Poland has before you take stance. :)

other countiries have gas transfered through Ukriane.

use your brain :) When our reserves will be finished ... Polands going to be accused for stealing gas (For which Poland paid for)

SashaThreads: 2 Posts: 1,558 Joined: Apr 19, 08 ♂	Feb 15, 09, 14:06 #154
Prince: Russians want Poland. Russians are either friendly or don't give a sh!t about you... and the second option is what I'd worry about, if I were you Princy. Prince: you dumb ass Uff... such a poor rhetoric... bad-bad Princy...

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: Sokrates Feb 15, 09, 14:13 #155

lesser:

Poland doesn't use so much of oil or gas to be worried. We should not change this and finally start to use own resources. This is necessary to stop babbling about global warming and don't reduce involvement of coal. Nuclear and geothermal energy and working on technology of gasification of coal underground, these are our task. Absolutely nothing was done in this direction.

You're right we dont use gas, we're cooking our meals by burning our socks, of course Poland uses lots of gas! Our energy grid is mostly coal based but our heating is gas based, we could never cover our own needs via coal only.

We have enough gas to supply ourselves ( possibly as much as Norway has ) but its much much more expensive to extract, i completely agree about going nuclear though.

lesser:

Please... They were talking the same 15 years ago, 10 years ago and 5 years ago. They are liars.

lesser:

Russian resources are well documented and the cheapest on the market.

Not for long, the price has been steadily growing for the past few years.

They ? I dont know who are "they" but i know that in the march of previous year financial time had a large article together with juicy statistics showing how russian gas is getting more and more expensive for the last 3 years and how its bound to reach and exceed the market price sometime 2012-2013.

Sasha:

Russians are either friendly or don't give a sh!t about you... and the second option is what I'd worry about, if I were you Princy.

No no he is quite correct, Russians want Poland, they also want our natural deposits of socks and mittens.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08 ♂	Feb 15, 09, 14:23 #156
I don't know who is still posting on this forum but ... the facts are that Sasha: Russians are either friendly or don't give a sh!t about you... and the second option is what I'd worry about, if I were you Princy So where is gas Poland paid for ?

♂

Edited by: lesser Feb 15, 09, 14:47 #157

Lukasz, all you can do is just whining about bad Russia and bad Germany without any objectivity. You really should consider joining PiS.

Sokrates:

You're right we dont use gas, we're cooking our meals by burning our socks, of course Poland uses lots of gas! Our energy grid is mostly coal based but our heating is gas based, we could never cover our own needs via coal only.

If you would be interested in this subject then you would know that Poland's usage of gas is small in comparison with western European states or Ukraine. Ukraine heating system is based on gas, Polish in opposition to your claims is based on coal (even in Gdansk!). This is cheaper solution.

Sokrates:

They ? I dont know who are "they" but i know that in the march of previous year financial time had a large article together with juicy statistics showing how russian gas is getting more and more expensive for the last 3 years and how its bound to reach and exceed the market price sometime 2012-2013.

Private companies of chemical industry in Poland are not interested to buy much more expensive gas from Norway. Polish state should not subsidy them and according regulations of the EU such subsidies are forbidden. These are facts and time for home-grown geopolitical strategist to accept reality.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08 ♂	Edited by: Prince Feb 15, 09, 14:50 #158
lesser: all you can do is just whining about bad Russia and bad Germany without any objectivity. You really should consider joining PiS. Where is gas Poland has paid for. In few weeks Poland will be without gas (Poland still has something in magazines). Then Poland will be accused for stealing it form pipelines.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 15, 09, 15:41 #159
Ever heard of delays in delivery, Prince? It happens. Poland still has stocks but, trust me, they don't last long. Just ask any company that places a heavy reliance on its consumption. If Poland was accused of stealing, I am sure it could clear its name. Paranoia helps little.

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: Sokrates Feb 15, 09, 17:29 #160

lesser:

Private companies of chemical industry in Poland are not interested to buy much more expensive gas from Norway. Polish state should not subsidy them and according regulations of the EU such subsidies are forbidden. These are facts and time for home-grown geopolitical strategist to accept reality.

Lesser have you read what i told you ? In a few years Russian gas is going to cost as much if not more than the Norwegian one, the smart thing to do would be to build a couple of nuke plants and start thinking about mining our own deposits which are among the largest in Europe.

lesser:

If you would be interested in this subject then you would know that Poland's usage of gas is small in comparison with western European states or Ukraine. Ukraine heating system is based on gas, Polish in opposition to your claims is based on coal (even in Gdansk!). This is cheaper solution.

Uh...no ? Poland is using gas for heating both in private and commercial sectors, we're using coal in power generation.

Regardless our economy is still heavily dependent on gas and unable to be fully sustained by coal so the point is moot, the moment we're dependent on Russia is the moment we're screwed.

According to the geological surveys and prognostics we have a 70 year long supply of gas, its very deep and extraction is very expensive but we should either prospect from more available sources or start developing cheaper extraction technologies.

♂

Feb 15, 09, 17:42 #161

lesser:

RosUKREnergo is also 50% owned by Naftogas which is Ukrainian state owned company. This is classical deadlock.

Uhm. Just one question - how this, classically deadlocked company, somehow managed to sell gas earlier to Ukraine and Poland, and now - suddenly - they can't do this anymore. Heck, how this company ever worked, if there was exact 50% of shares and influence - from one side 50% of Gazprom (one of the biggest companies in the world) and second 50% of... two Ukrainian private businesmen.
I bet those two Ukrainians are pulling the strings now, yeah, that's for sure! *smirk*

And, I wonder if this newspaper is mouthpiece of PiS, too?
http://gospodarka.gazeta.pl/gospodarka/1,33181,6204832,Polska_nie_dost aje_gazu.html

So, where is 24% of our contracted gas, Mr. Putin?

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08 ♂	Edited by: Prince Feb 15, 09, 18:21 #162
Ryszard: So, where is 24% of our contracted gas, Mr. Putin? Exactly, Gazprom one week after the end of Ukrianian crisise has stoped sending gas for Poland. Poland paid for this gas. Sokrates: According to the geological surveys and prognostics we have a 70 year long supply of gas Polish situation isn't so good. Anny links ?

♂

Feb 15, 09, 18:45 #163

Rather than pointing fingers, have a look at this, http://bbjonline.hu/?col=1004&id=46852. There was a long conference on this, posted by RussiaToday on Youtube. Putin is VERY clear on the position. Judge his sincerity for yourselves.

Compensation has been offered which is more than can be said for Bulgaria and Slovakia, http://www.euractiv.com/en/energy/gazprom-refuses-pay-compensation-gas -crisis/article-178808?Ref=RSS

RosUkrEnergo just have to outline their reasons for the failure but the picture is rosy for Poland. Supplies have been upped from 76% to 93%.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08 ♂	Edited by: Prince Feb 15, 09, 18:46 #164
I don't want to imagine what will happen after Nord Stream being build. Our situation would be much worst. It is clear that Nord Stream would be catastrophe for natural enviroment and for Polish safty.

♂

Feb 15, 09, 19:13 #165

Poland certainly has cause for concern. I wrote an article about 'scoping' way back in 2000 which is part of the Environmental Impact Assessment process (EIA). Scoping takes place in the preliminary part of proceedings. For more, read up on the Espoo Convention.

I have to read up on the effects on nature but I know that there was a hoo haa at the World Wide fund for nature. Statutes like the Habitats Directive must be cited to the planners like Wingas and DONG Energy.

http://eng.gazeta.kz/art.asp?aid=104374. Given that Russia wants to oust Poland, or at least have that option, Poland is right to be uncooperative and non-compliant.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKL0852440420080708?pageNumber= 3&virtualBrandChannel=0, Poland is right to sound the alarm bells. Environmental concerns should not play second fiddle to business deals.

♂

Edited by: lesser Feb 15, 09, 22:56 #166

Ryszard:

Uhm. Just one question - how this, classically deadlocked company, somehow managed to sell gas earlier to Ukraine and Poland, and now - suddenly - they can't do this anymore. Heck, how this company ever worked, if there was exact 50% of shares and influence - from one side 50% of Gazprom (one of the biggest companies in the world) and second 50% of... two Ukrainian private businesmen.
I bet those two Ukrainians are pulling the strings now, yeah, that's for sure! *smirk*

How do I know? These are some very shady Russian-Ukrainian deals. My point is that Polish side should not automatically assume that this is Russia to blame. They signed contract with RosUkrEnergo and they might sue this company.

You all should remember that Tymoshenko way before orange revolution was named to be "Gas princess". She made a fortune at that time, she know something about this business. I think, I don't need to add that she needed to be involved in such shady deals as well.

Ryszard:

No, this euro-socialist mouthpiece. This article is much more objective.

Prince:

It is clear that Nord Stream would be catastrophe for natural enviroment and for Polish safty.

What a nonsense. :) It is absolutely possible to build it without causing any catastrophes. Of course this is good tactic to maybe even stop this project. However we are not politicians, so we should be more honest.

♂

Feb 15, 09, 23:23 #167

Well, Poland joined the EU in May 2004 as we know. Thus, EU Environmental Law applies. It thus has recourse to the integration clause in this sphere/domain. This stipulates that all relevant EIA's will be carried out expeditiously.

I can't remember the exact terminology applied by the ECJ when outlining the sphere of competence of the Commission. Environmental protection became one of the key priorities of theirs, featuring extensively in their remit. It was to permeate through the fabric of the EU. Also, any international agreements are to be congruent with the EU Treaty, Article 10 I think.

Also, the Law of the Sea Convention became annexed to EU Law. After a reading of it, you could conclude that Germany and Russia should be exploring the Polish proposition of taking it away from the seabed and laying it elsewhere.

From a knowledge of EU Law, I can safely say that Poland is on safe legal ground here.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07 ♂	Edited by: lesser Feb 15, 09, 23:27 #168
So why the EU put Nord Stream on the list of projects of special priority?

♂

Edited by: Prince Feb 15, 09, 23:33 #169

lesser:

What a nonsense. :) It is absolutely possible to build it without causing any catastrophes. Of course this is good tactic to maybe even stop this project. However we are not politicians, so we should be more honest.

Even in German newspaper you can find such pictures.

I see that you are natural enviroment expert as well .... What is sure alternativie rout is less dangerous from this point of view. What is more it is cheaper and doesn't cause so many political tensions.

I am not enviroment expert. That is why I am happy that Swedes decided to check more carefuly possible threats for natural enviroment.

lesser:

...

However we are not politicians, so we should be more honest.

To be honest you pretend to be politician I remember you proclaiming political program.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 15, 09, 23:36 #170
I'll take that as a rhetorical question, lesser. You know full well what the answer to that is. Do you really think that if two of the smallest states proposed it and was met with objection from bigger players, it would be accepted and approved? Money talks, BS walks. You want answers, ask a Pole, Marcin Libicki. He is a prominent MEP and a Chairman.

♂

Feb 15, 09, 23:48 #171

Prince:

I see that you are natural enviroment expert as well .... What is sure alternativie rout is less dangerous from this point of view. What is more it is cheaper and doesn't cause so many political tensions.

I'm not an expert but I'm aware that we live in XXI century. This is absolutely possible to localize and avoid dangerous areas. Incredible amount of stupidity would be needed to put a pipe directly on some barrel of poison!

Prince:

To be honest you pretend to be politician I remember you proclaiming political program.

I have some vision of our state but I'm not a politician.

♂

Edited by: Prince Feb 16, 09, 00:13 #172

lesser:

I'm not an expert but I'm aware that we live in XXI century. This is absolutely possible to localize and avoid dangerous areas. Incredible amount of stupidity would be needed to put a pipe directly on some barrel of poison!

Experts need to check it. ... the smalest move can cause enormous problems. Both for natural enviroment and for Polish, Swedish, Norwegian ect. tourist industry. Human has killed so many spices on earth that we need to take special care about what we have.

I want my grandchildern to see all this animals and plants I can see these days. Experts need to check and one thing is sure we can't risk.

lesser:

I have some vision of our state but I'm not a politician.

But you would like to be one ...

♂

Feb 16, 09, 14:01 #173

lesser:

RosUKREnergo is also 50% owned by Naftogas which is Ukrainian state owned company. This is classical deadlock. Is the glass half empty or half full? Stop being such a hypocrite.

That is wrong. This 50% is owned by "private businessmans" from Ukraine.

Prince:

Ryszard:
So, where is 24% of our contracted gas, Mr. Putin?

Exactly, Gazprom one week after the end of Ukrianian crisise has stoped sending gas for Poland. Poland paid for this gas.

Heh, guys, you need to read more. Gasprom decided to cut off this "private businessmans" probably because at least one of them is donator of president Yushchenko. After last agreement between Naftogas and Gasprom, Naftogas took over all RosUkrEnergo gas which was stored in Ukraine. Of course now Gasprom says that it wasn't part of a deal... Anyway, legally RosUkrEnergo is responsible, and has no gas.
Of course Gasprom is behind it, but isn't responsible legally. So what can we do?

Again, important question: there is world wide crisis, now in Poland too, production is falling. Maybe after all it is not so bad that we didn't get this 24% of our contracted gas?
I think we didn't pay for it yet. Why do you think there is no alarming articles about it in Polish press? Why there is no alarming posts on internet forums? Why we didn't see directors from Azoty in the media telling as that they could have problems with production?
My hypothesis: we don't need this 24% now.

♂

Edited by: Ryszard Feb 16, 09, 14:03 #174

lesser:

I'm not an expert but I'm aware that we live in XXI century. This is absolutely possible to localize and avoid dangerous areas.

The point is such localization hasn't been done yet, and doing them was not included in Nord Stream project. That's why Sweden is opposing it... and you can believe them as they really doesn't have any other business than ecology here.

Incredible amount of stupidity would be needed to put a pipe directly on some barrel of poison!

Just try to imagine yourself how Baltic ground looks like... yuck.
It's not an easy job to do. And it must cost money. Lots of them.
And the investors would have to pay them.
Incredible amount of stupidity? No, just good old greed.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 16, 09, 14:08 #175
That info is a little dated. The 76% that was provided was subsequently upped to 93% so only a 7% deficit remains. The Board of Directors of RosUkrEnergo are Scandinavian or German I think. The guy who runs the show, Mogilevich, is Ukrainian by birth but has Russian citizenship and is more thought of as Russian.

RyszardThreads: - Posts: 123 Joined: Aug 7, 07 ♂	Feb 17, 09, 02:11 #176
Seanus: That info is a little dated. The 76% that was provided was subsequently upped to 93% so only a 7% deficit remains. Can I have the source of this information?

♂

Edited by: Prince Feb 17, 09, 07:09 #177

Gazprom ows 50% of this company Gazprom is controled by Cremlin.

FIANACIAL TIMES February 16 2009

Polish shortfall rekindles fears of gas crisis

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/474599ae-fbc8-11dd-bcad-000077b07658.html

Poland is still suffering shortfalls of gas nearly a month after Russia and Ukraine signed a pact to resolve a dispute that left tens of thousands of people across Europe without fuel.

Polish officials say that Russia has demanded a renegotiation of the 1993 treaty that governs gas shipments between the two countries in exchange for making up the shortfalls - a prospect that some fear could result in higher fees or other concessions. Gazprom, the Russian state gas company, was not available for comment.

so it is Russians who have broken long term contracts and blackmail Poland.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Feb 17, 09, 08:54 #178
Yes, Richard, look at post 163 above

♂

Edited by: jwojcie Feb 17, 09, 12:00 #179

For those of you who know polish:
http://gielda.onet.pl/0,1918133,wiadomosci.html
For those who don't:
second month in a row Gasprom is cutting mining by 13% due to falling demand in Russia.
For example production in chemistry sector failed by 30%. As I said before production in Poland is failing too. It seems to me that Russians unintentionally made own goal.
RosUkrEnergo failed? Unnecessarily gas not delivered? we don't have to pay.
Maybe paradoxically one good news in this crisis mess.

PS. Don't forget that now gas is cheaper. I suppose that this gas from RUE was contracted with bigger price.

♂

Feb 17, 09, 21:10 #180

jwojcie:

That is wrong. This 50% is owned by "private businessmans" from Ukraine.

Yes, I confused structure of ownership with UkrGazEnergo company (50% RosUkrEnergo, 50% Naftogaz). These are all political structures. Anyway, this don't change much.

Ryszard:

The point is such localization hasn't been done yet, and doing them was not included in Nord Stream project.

Thus I have wrote before that such strategy might even block this project. But this is technologically absolutely possible.

POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Unanswered \| Archives
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide	Meet Polish People at PF!	Witamy, Guest \| PF Members \| Gold Members

Home \| Unanswered \| Archives \| Random \| Statistics	Time in Poland: 08:22 / Feb 10
About Us \| Contact Us \| Rules, Privacy \| Poland Advertising	© 2005-12 PolishForums.com