Poland to build Jew-savers' museum

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Oct 28, 10, 11:55 #1

Poland is to build a Righteous Among Nations museum dedicated to the thousands of Poles who saved Jews during WW II Nazi occupation.
The museum is to be built in the village of Markowa, near Rzeszów, southern Poland, where the Ulma family was slaughtered by the Nazis after hiding eight people from two Jewish families. The Nazis raided their house in March 1944 and the Jews were immediately shot: the same fate was later met by the pregnant Wiktoria Ulma and her husband.
“Poland should be proud of the Polish Righteous, who were real heroes. During the war Poland was the only country where hiding Jews meant a death sentence. Nevertheless it is the Polish who constitute the biggest group among the Righteous. Over 6,000 Poles put their lives at risk to save Jews. Unfortunately, not many people are aware of that,” Miriam Akawia, an Israeli novelist who survived Holocaust. told the Rzeczpospolita daily.
http://www.thenews.pl/international/artykul142407_poland-to-create-rig hteous-among-nations-museum.html

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 28, 10, 12:03 #2
Now you have only to drag any visiting school class, foreign football team and any official diplomatic guest into it and you are all set! :)

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Oct 28, 10, 13:20 #3
Who would want to go all the way to Poland just to go to a tiny village in the middle of nowhere and see one museum? They should have built it somewhere in Kraków or Warsaw.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Oct 28, 10, 13:22 #4
vetala: Who would want to go all the way to Poland just to go to a tiny village in the middle of nowhere and see one museum? Maybe Poles already living in Poland?

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Oct 28, 10, 13:25 #5
Polonius3: During the war Poland was the only country where hiding Jews meant a death sentence. Not disrespecting the Poles who stuck their necks out but surely the above is an overstatement? I would imagine the average Nazi officer would have thought nothing of executing any nationality (except maybe German) found to be hiding jews.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09 ♀	Oct 28, 10, 13:25 #6
jonni: Maybe Poles already living in Poland? Fine - Who would want to go all the way to the other side of the country just to go to a tiny village in the middle of nowhere and see one museum?

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Edited by: jonni Oct 28, 10, 13:29 #7

vetala:

Fine - Who would want to go all the way to the other side of the country just to go to a tiny village in the middle of nowhere and see one museum?

Tourists or visitors, who are in the area anyway. Or anyone within an hour or so's drive, plus local school groups.

Every year I go on an organised coach tour, in different parts of Poland, usually visiting several little villages or small towns with something interesting. The organisers always hire a local guide for the weekend. Last time was in Kujawy.

Teffle:

Not disrespecting the Poles who stuck their necks out but surely the above is an overstatement?

Occupied Poland was the only place where they automatically executed whole families for it.

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Oct 28, 10, 13:29 #8

Teffle:

Not disrespecting the Poles who stuck their necks out but surely the above is an overstatement?

Nazis had laws. They weren't always fair but they were usually respected. And in most countries the punishment for hiding Jews was paying a fine or getting arrested. But it is, indeed, an overstatement, because Poland wasn't the only country treated this way, Soviet Union was too, and cases of people getting killed for hiding Jews happened all over Europe, although not officially approved by the law.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 28, 10, 13:37 #9
vetala: a tiny village in the middle of nowhere It's actually quite a nice place.

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Oct 28, 10, 17:07 #10

vetala:

Who would want to go all the way to Poland just to go to a tiny village in the middle of nowhere and see one museum?

Perhaps Jews. They go aout of their way to see a Catholic church just because there is painting there.

Teffle:

I would imagine the average Nazi officer would have thought nothing of executing any nationality (except maybe German) found to be hiding jews.

The key words in your statement are "I would imagine." I'm sure you know the difference. Just in case you don't, it is not the same as "I know what I'm talking about."

vetala:

Nazis had laws.

So far, so good.

vetala:

But it is, indeed, an overstatement, because Poland wasn't the only country treated this way,

In Europe, yes.

vetala:

Soviet Union was too

Then surely Israel recognized those in the Soviet Union who were murdered for giving assistance to Jews. Please tell us how many were murdered or even how many assisted.

vetala:

and cases of people getting killed for hiding Jews happened all over Europe,

Are you imagining this or is this something you know and can back up? What it sounds like, you are saying Poles have nothing to be proud of for saving Jews at risk of losing their and their family's life, because in other countries under occupation the Germans could have done the same thing even if it was not their own law. That is like saying that the risk for getting caught stealing is about the same in Saudi Arabia and France.

David_18Threads: 111 Posts: 1,212 Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂	Oct 28, 10, 17:40 #11
First a the largest Jesus statue in the world in a small town and now a jew saves museum in a small village. Whats next? A gigantic Eiffel tower in Rogacze?

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Oct 28, 10, 17:41 #12

vetala:

cases of people getting killed for hiding Jews happened all over Europe

This doesn't in any way reduce Poland's right to celebrate such people.

I am lucky to have known two Righteous Among the Nations. If Poland wants to celebrate and remember the triumph of human decency and bravery over evil, they have every right to do so. Future generations of Poles and others would do well to remember the Righteous Among the Nations, and their courage.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 28, 10, 17:52 #13
1jola: They go aout of their way to see a Catholic church just because there is painting there. Stained glass window actually.

RogalskiThreads: 9 Posts: 146 Joined: May 8, 09 ♂	Oct 28, 10, 18:56 #14
1jola: Perhaps Jews. They go aout of their way to see a Catholic church just because there is painting there. Yes, a list of worthwhile churches to visit is circulated at the monthly meetings. Sometimes tours for paid-up members are arranged too.

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Edited by: vetala Oct 28, 10, 19:09 #15

1jola:

Are you imagining this or is this something you know and can back up?

This forum inspired me to take a course in Holocaust Studies, so I have a whole library and experts to back it up. Just as I said, there were cases of people getting killed for hiding Jews anywhere, the difference is that only on the territories of Poland (and Ukraine and Belarus) it was sanctioned by law.

1jola:

What it sounds like, you are saying Poles have nothing to be proud of for saving Jews

Absolutely not. I, for one, am VERY proud of my great-grandparents.

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Oct 28, 10, 19:20 #16

Bratwurst Boy:

Now you have only to drag any visiting school class, foreign football team and any official diplomatic guest into it and you are all set! :)

Welcoming Germans school kids to visit would be a good idea.

Polonius3:

Poland is to build a Righteous Among Nations museum dedicated to the thousands of Poles who saved Jews during WW II Nazi occupation.

Good idea, I just suggested in another thread that something like this would be appropriate. I would also strongly emphasize the deaths of the 'unknown' heroes who were lost to history.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Oct 28, 10, 19:45 #17
Polonius3: Poland to build Jew-savers' museum they have nothing better to spend their money on? build a hospital, school, plant some trees

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Oct 28, 10, 19:54 #18
ZIMMY: Welcoming Germans school kids to visit would be a good idea. And in exchange polish school children can visit the center about the expellees.... That will surely help future understandings! :)

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Oct 28, 10, 19:58 #19
Bratwurst Boy: And in exchange polish school children can visit the center about the expellees.... lol that's pretty good Bratwurst Boy, good comeback

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Oct 28, 10, 20:00 #20

Rogalski:

Yes, a list of worthwhile churches to visit is circulated at the monthly meetings. Sometimes tours for paid-up members are arranged too.

Welcome to Poland. Stay a while and maybe you will understand what I was talking about. See, Harry does.

Vatela:

This forum inspired me to take a course in Holocaust Studies, so I have a whole library and experts to back it up.

I'm not impressed and I don't think anyone else is. We won't laugh at you though, yet.

vetala:

Just as I said, there were cases of people getting killed for hiding Jews anywhere,

Oh, now you sound convincing. So were these cases in the tens, hundreds, or thousands? In which countries? Were whole families killed?

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Oct 28, 10, 20:41 #21

1jola:

We won't laugh at you though, yet.

You think expanding knowledge through academic studies is something to be laughed at?

1jola:

So were these cases in the tens, hundreds, or thousands? In which countries? Were whole families killed?

What point are you trying to make? The discussion wasn't about who has more right to be proud how many people were killed but about validity of Polonius's statement questioned by Teffle. You don't need to shove numbers when it's pointless to do so, because I know them all and I am not discussing them at the moment.

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Oct 28, 10, 21:28 #22

vetala:

You think expanding knowledge through academic studies is something to be laughed at?

Not at all, but saying there are lots of books and experts to back up facts you have not presented is. This is the normal way to converse if you want to be treated seriously. I have no doubt there was someone killed in other countries for aiding Jews but neither was that the German policy, nor were the numbers anywhere near the number of Poles executed for it. If you came accross these stats, do post them. In Poland, there were over 1,000 such cases and are documented

vetala:

What point are you trying to make? The discussion wasn't about who has more right to be proud how many people were killed but about validity of Polonius's statement questioned by Teffle.

Teffle produced about as much facts as you. That is none. At least he is honest and said he did't know. You are saying you know but won't tell.

vetala:

You don't need to shove numbers when it's pointless to do so, because I know them all and I am not discussing them at the moment.

You are all hot air so far and you are not making it easier to take you seriously. BTW, there was no such thing as Belarus or Ukraine at that time. These were part of pre-war Polish lands and were occupied by either the Soviets or the Germans.

A course in Holocaust studies makes you a beginner in these type of discussions, and they are notorious for bullshit information fed to the gulible and uninformed. Perhaps it's a good place to start though.

.

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Oct 28, 10, 22:03 #23
Bratwurst Boy: And in exchange polish school children can visit the center about the expellees.... Of course, and they could ask what led to all of this. Invite the Russians first though. Bratwurst Boy: That will surely help future understandings! :) Yes indeed.

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Oct 28, 10, 22:47 #24

vetala:

Who would want to go all the way to the other side of the country just to go to a tiny village

Its only about an hour away from Krakow.

Anyone read any books, By Richard C Lukas.

He is best known for "The Forgotten Holocaust," the first systematic study in English by an American historian of the wartime experience of the Poles and their relations with the Jews. Considered a classic, the book has gone through many printings and editions, including a Polish one.
Including Christian Poles under the umbrella of the "Holocaust" was intended by Lukas to call attention to the horrible persecution of others during the German occupation of Poland. Lukas did not draw absolute parity between the sufferings of the Jews and Christian Poles during the Holocaust.
Lukas was the first historian to discover two crucial documents sent by the Polish Underground to London, informing the West of the beginning of the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto.
His continuing interest in the Polish tragedy during World War II resulted in several additional books, including the award-winning "Did the Children Cry?" and his recent, highly-regarded, "Forgotten Survivors."

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Oct 28, 10, 23:03 #25
warszawski: Its only about an hour away from Krakow. And in what used to be the Jewish heartland of Poland.

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Oct 29, 10, 08:38 #26

1jola:

I have no doubt there was someone killed in other countries for aiding Jews

ANd that's exactly the point I was trying to make this entire time.

1jola:

but neither was that the German policy, nor were the numbers anywhere near the number of Poles executed for it.

I know. I thought it was obvious. This was not the point of the discussion though. You can say "most people killed for hiding Jews were Poles" but not "only Poles were ever killed for hiding Jews". This is what Teffle was asking about and so this is what I answered.

1jola:

You are saying you know but won't tell.

What do you want to me to do - send you copies of official Nazi documentation? I don't see what would be the point after you've already agreed with my statement (first quote).

1jola:

BTW, there was no such thing as Belarus or Ukraine at that time. These were part of pre-war Polish lands and were occupied by either the Soviets or the Germans.

No, only part of them was under the Polish rule. The other part was Soviet, hence my previous statement. And whatever country they officially belonged to, vast majority of people there were Ukrainian and Belarussian, so they were the ones affected by the laws.

1jola:

a beginner in these type of discussions

Hardly. I've been in those discussion for several years now, I've read lots of books and testimonies of survivors and rescuers, so I dare say I know more than a bit about it. I started the studies only to expand my knowledge and actually meet and talk to survivors.

1jola:

they are notorious for bullshit information fed to the gulible and uninformed.

lol. 1jola=Holocaust expert, knows more about the subject than people who have been researching it for a good portion of their life.

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Edited by: Teffle Oct 29, 10, 10:25 #27

Ok, so first you say:

1jola:

The key words in your statement are "I would imagine." I'm sure you know the difference. Just in case you don't, it is not the same as "I know what I'm talking about."

and then...

1jola:

I have no doubt there was someone killed in other countries for aiding Jews but neither was that the German policy, nor were the numbers anywhere near the number of Poles executed for it.

So, tentative retraction already.

How about this then for starters?

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/about.asp

"The price that rescuers had to pay for their action differed from one country to another. In Eastern Europe, the Germans executed not only the people who sheltered Jews, but their entire family as well. Notices warning the population against helping the Jews were posted everywhere. Generally speaking punishment was less severe in Western Europe, although there too the consequences could be formidable and some of the Righteous Among the Nations were incarcerated in camps and killed"

Note the first bolded segment, Eastern Europe, i.e. not Poland and Poland alone.

That's after just a few seconds of googling. Scanning other results reveals reference to scores of people killed in Latvia and other countries too.

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Oct 29, 10, 11:23 #28

vetala:

What do you want to me to do - send you copies of official Nazi documentation?

I seriously doubt that you read German and have access to archives, but something more than "yeah, I know stuff which I won't divulge" would do.

vetala:

I've read lots of books and testimonies of survivors and rescuers, so I dare say I know more than a bit about it. I started the studies only to expand my knowledge and actually meet and talk to survivors.

Again, despite all that "stuff" you know, you can't back up what you are saying. Don't waste my time.

Teffle:

Note the first bolded segment, Eastern Europe, i.e. not Poland and Poland alone.

Ask Vatela, she will tell you that that is wrong, or at least grossly imprecise.

Yad Vashem:

Generally speaking punishment was less severe in Western Europe, although there too the consequences could be formidable and some of the Righteous Among the Nations were incarcerated in camps and killed"

The difference between being executed on the spot in Poland and being arrested and perhaps sent to a camp is indeed "less severe."
I don't have time to explain to you the elements of a circus at Yad Vashem, but you should go there yourself to experience it.

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Edited by: Teffle Oct 29, 10, 11:43 #29

Whatever you say 1Jola. I don't really care about the technicalities or caveats or the "buts" or the numbers, I for one am more than satisfied that the following claims by both you and Polonius:

Polonius3:

During the war Poland was the only country where hiding Jews meant a death sentence.

1jola:

vetala:
But it is, indeed, an overstatement, because Poland wasn't the only country treated this way,
In Europe, yes.

...are simply wrong.

That's all.

♂ [Suspended]

Oct 29, 10, 11:58 #30

1jola:

Again, despite all that "stuff" you know, you can't back up what you are saying. Don't waste my time.

Very much like your assertion regarding who murdered Mordechai Growas and the rest of his unit. On the one hand we have a professor of history who has been knighted for his services to history and on the other we have an unknown writer who tries to claim that a man who is known from numerous eye-witness sources and historical documents to be a ZOB fighter was actually no more than a grave-digger. Who should we believe?!

1jola:

Ask Vatela, she will tell you that that is wrong, or at least grossly imprecise.

Interesting that you claim to know more about what happened to people who helped Jews than Yad Vashem do. Is there no end to your talents?

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