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Poland Demands Russian Findings on Crash


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David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 3, 10, 00:44    #1
WARSAW—Poland's government for the first time voiced official dissatisfaction with Moscow for what it said was a failure to share critical findings from its investigation into an April plane crash that killed Poland's president.

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk on Monday said Warsaw has yet to receive documents it has requested and called on Russia to turn over "precise information" uncovered during its probe of the crash, near an airfield in Smolensk.

Russian officials have said the country has already handed over everything it has.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704905004575405363242999 960.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

So... Does the russians keep some secrets? Or is it just polish paranoia?
Wiedzmin_fanThreads: 2
Posts: 133
Joined: May 31, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 3, 10, 17:00    #2
The article stipulates that it's the controllers' testimony about the closing of the airport that they are after. If the controllers opted not to close the airport despite the bad weather, the whole thing can be blamed on the Russians.

Imagine that there's a testimony by the controller "yeah, the weather was below minimum, and we really should have closed the airport, but we didn't want to cause a diplomatic incident" - that would be pretty damning. So the Russians wouldn't want to make it public. It's plausible.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 3, 10, 17:40    #3
Wiedzmin_fan:
If the controllers opted not to close the airport despite the bad weather, the whole thing can be blamed on the Russians.

My understanding is that those controllers were not able to 'close' the airport; they could not issue orders, only advice. However, they did advise the Polish pilots that there were no conditions to accept the plane for landing.
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 3, 10, 18:08    #4
Wiedzmin_fan:
The article stipulates that it's the controllers' testimony about the closing of the airport that they are after. If the controllers opted not to close the airport despite the bad weather, the whole thing can be blamed on the Russians.

The controllers weren't flying the plane, and they didn't descend below minimums. The pilots did.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 3, 10, 23:47    #5
They got what was coming to them. If indeed the Russian transcript is genuine, their cockiness was their downfall. They announced a 'debestka' (the best). Time and again we see bravado, only to fall flat on their face. I hope they rot for the loss of life they caused there and many Poles feel the same.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 4, 10, 00:12    #6
Seanus:
they caused

Let's be clear: there was only one cause of the loss of life there & it wasn't the pilots: it was the man who declared that Polish pilots shouldn't be cowards (just after one mistakenly perhaps saved his life).
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 4, 10, 00:14    #7
Blaszczyk?
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 4, 10, 02:27    #8
Harry:
Let's be clear: there was only one cause of the loss of life there & it wasn't the pilots: it was the man who declared that Polish pilots shouldn't be cowards (just after one mistakenly perhaps saved his life).

quack!
IkeThreads: -
Posts: 2
Joined: Apr 7, 09 ♂ 		 Aug 5, 10, 17:03    #9
What about if you create a bad weather?
:

link: eco.rian.ru/danger/20100804/261615989.html

Brief translation of todays info about russian fires and official statement by Sergey Shoygu, Ministry of Emergency Situations:

"We have special equipment in the city of Sarov to fight the fire. Among them is the equipment for creating the fog and mobile firefighting units.

If someone can read russian, please refer to the link above.

They have a lot to hide.
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
Posts: 2,529
Joined: Apr 27, 07  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Aug 8, 10, 08:33    #10
Russia should turn over all information.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 8, 10, 11:44    #11
Not likely! They are still deciphering the NATO codes ;) They don't give a damn what the Polish government wants.
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 9, 10, 07:57    #12
Harry:

Let's be clear: there was only one cause of the loss of life there & it wasn't the pilots: it was the man who declared that Polish pilots shouldn't be cowards (just after one mistakenly perhaps saved his life).

who then. the pilots were the ones flying and in control of the plane.. no one else can really be blamed.
southernThreads: 116
Posts: 10,955
Joined: May 17, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 9, 10, 08:13    #13
David_18:
Poland Demands Russian Findings on Crash


They want the wallets back?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 9, 10, 09:38    #14
The pilot was under immense pressure as it wouldn't have looked good to his bosses had he not tried to make the landing. However, he was confident he could do it and that was sheer stupidity given the lack of an ILS, never mins MLS.
rychlikThreads: 51
Posts: 446
Joined: Aug 6, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 11, 10, 00:13    #15
I didn't read all of the posts BUT I need to know where do we stand in this investigation? I'm not in Poland and need to know if the Poles are getting answers or not? I keep hearing that nothing from the black boxes has been heard but I thought they released this information. Answers from anybody.
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 11, 10, 02:39    #16
rychlik:
I didn't read all of the posts BUT I need to know where do we stand in this investigation? I'm not in Poland and need to know if the Poles are getting answers or not? I keep hearing that nothing from the black boxes has been heard but I thought they released this information. Answers from anybody.

then read all the threads and if you still have questions, ask the russians.
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,305
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 11, 10, 07:00    #17
Seanus:
The pilot was under immense pressure as it wouldn't have looked good to his bosses had he not tried to make the landing. However, he was confident he could do it and that was sheer stupidity given the lack of an ILS, never mins MLS.


If the pilot went to another airport he and his delegation would have only been about an hour or so late. The ceremony would have waited for them. Therefore throwing water on this speculation on "how much pressure he was under". Do you really believe those audio tapes? You don't think in this day and age, especially from ex-KGB institutions they could have been dubbed?

Maybe the pilot had every right to feel confident if the air controllers were giving him the right information which they weren't. The aircontrollers on the same day gave different accounts of the instructions they gave the pilots. THe bottom line is nobody knows for sure what information was relayed to the pilots. Even Russian reports said that ex-SOVIET angencies were investigating this and speaking for the Russian government on providing "information" on this event. Who in their right mind thinks people formerly representing SOVIET agencies are on the up and up now. They are no more honest then those thugs looting the Polish passengers.

Sadly the current Polish government wants to go the path of least resistance and not ask to many tough questions. Because if they find someting objectionable they will be put in a position where they would have to take some tough action against the Russian government which they don't want to do.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 11, 10, 09:11    #18
It does appear to be that way. They seize upon a chance to heal wounds at the expense of sb else. Still, on the Polish side, WHY didn't LK and the others not set off much earlier? That was just stupid!
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,305
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 11, 10, 17:24    #19
Seanus:
It does appear to be that way. They seize upon a chance to heal wounds at the expense of sb else. Still, on the Polish side, WHY didn't LK and the others not set off much earlier? That was just stupid!


If the plane was able to land, do you know what time he would have arrived there at? I believe it would have been just right after everyone else got there. Maybe like a half hour later?.

You're probably right that it would have been better if he got there earlier, I just don't know if that would have made a world of difference in scenarios where he could land at either times.

I understand the reaction though that he should have gotten there earlier since there has been so much repetition after the fact, of the speculated notion (still unproven no matter how much its repeated) that LK was "beating down on the pilot and about to kill him for not landing on time".
jonniThreads: 26
Posts: 4,181
Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 11, 10, 17:28    #20
MediaWatch:
tand the reaction though that he should have gotten there earlier since there has been so much repetition after the fact, of the speculated notion (still unproven no matter how much its repeated) that LK was "beating down on the pilot and about to kill him for not landing on time".

Totally unproven but very much in character.
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 06:12    #21
MediaWatch:
You're probably right that it would have been better if he got there earlier, I just don't know if that would have made a world of difference in scenarios where he could land at either times.

they sat on the tarmac in Warsaw for over an hour.. if they arrived that 1 hour earlier in Smolensk they most likely would have landed without an issue... remember that other planes landed with no problem that morning and the last one, the other polish plane, landed just about an hour earlier.

jonni:


Totally unproven but very much in character.

well, the black box transcripts seemed to kind of at least insinuate that..
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 06:21    #22
I hope this isn't true, special effects done on a computer or something...
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 06:34    #23
PennBoy:
I hope this isn't true, special effects done on a computer or something...

oh jeez.. we've all seen this footage at least a dozen times in the other threads.. there is nothing "special effects" about it either.. what is your beef with the clip?
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,305
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 07:02    #24
plk123:
they sat on the tarmac in Warsaw for over an hour.. if they arrived that 1 hour earlier in Smolensk they most likely would have landed without an issue... remember that other planes landed with no problem that morning and the last one, the other polish plane, landed just about an hour earlier...


Well yes that's true. Hindsight is always 20/20 where people can say after the fact, they should have done this or that.

Do you know why they were on the tarmac in Warsaw for an hour? When flying I've had flights where I waited on the Tarmac longer then that.

plk123:

well, the black box transcripts seemed to kind of at least insinuate that..


Yes and we all know that black boxes in former KGB agency hands are immune from one of the oldest forms of tampering. LOL
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 07:36    #25
MediaWatch:

Do you know why they were on the tarmac in Warsaw for an hour? When flying I've had flights where I waited on the Tarmac longer then that.

yes, the duck was running way, way late

MediaWatch:
Yes and we all know that black boxes in former KGB agency hands are immune from one of the oldest forms of tampering. LOL

where is the one polish black box and what does it say? we have never heard about it again.. hmm
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,305
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 10:04    #26
plk123:
where is the one polish black box and what does it say? we have never heard about it again.. hmm



And you're point?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 12, 10, 15:22    #27
MediaWatch:
If the pilot went to another airport he and his delegation would have only been about an hour or so late. The ceremony would have waited for them. Therefore throwing water on this speculation on "how much pressure he was under".

You might want to consider researching the rubbish you read on conspiracy websites before you regurgitate it here. The closest alternative airport was Minsk: Minsk is 300km from Smolensk. Diverting there would have taken the best part of an hour and the party would then have had to secure suitable transport (i.e. not simply hit the Avis desk and rent some cars) before making a four to five hour drive. So, even assuming that suitable transport could be organised before the plane reached Minsk, the party would have been six hours late for the ceremony.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 15:26    #28
plk123:
there is nothing "special effects" about it either.. what is your beef with the clip?

hehe, so ur admiting FSB agents killed survivors
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 15:52    #29
plk123:
oh jeez.. we've all seen this footage at least a dozen times in the other threads.. there is nothing "special effects" about it either.. what is your beef with the clip?

My personal favorite part of that video is the old guy that is just standing there while the "executions" are going on.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 12, 10, 16:02    #30
convex:
"executions" are going on

If that's what did in fact happen, they're scum above all over scum.

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