Poland Elections oct 2011/your feed back about RP Janusz Palikot? Poland is changing!

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Oct 17, 11, 19:36 #91
Seanus: 890PLN is a lot of money for sb who doesn't have a conventional firm. It's a huge amount for a self-employed person out in the sticks who might only be turning over a couple of thousand.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Oct 17, 11, 19:38 #92
Exactly! I'm not turning in much more than that at the moment. Privates keep me afloat.

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Oct 17, 11, 19:49 #93

Seanus:

I respect peoples' rights to practise their faith, that's not in question. I just question the herd mentality and I have that right

You can question whatever you like but is not what you are doing here. In here you are making mockery in an unbecoming manner which I found disgraceful and disrespectful.

Seanus:

Plenty Polish people are disillusioned with the way the church conducts their affairs, I-S.

Plenty of Polish people like to grumble do not make much of it, and there is a shyt stirring policy of some newspapers aimed at Church.

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Edited by: JonnyM Oct 17, 11, 19:51 #94

Seanus:

Exactly!

And given the high tax rates, the increasing cost of living etc, it's no surprise that a) excellent teachers (whether native speakers or not) need privates and b) the 'informal economy' is so strong. Poland's economic growth is partly at the cost of skilled professionals whose income doesn't always match their abilities. It's why I'm sitting on a ship in the middle of the ocean dreaming of getting back to Poland in a week or so. Lots of Poles working in the UK (or indeed on this ship) can say the same.

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Oct 17, 11, 21:51 #95

Making a mockery of what, I-S? I find it despicable that a Pole allows another Pole the freedom to fire off in all manner of ways yet he takes issue with a foreigner that has another perspective and can thus point out some things which appear wrong in his eyes. We call that hypocrisy where I come from. So, be specific. What did you find "disrespectful"?

Scots like to grumble too so I suggest you get a handle on that.

Precisely, Jonny. You are avoiding Groundhog Day out there :) :) Palikot, for all his eccentricities and clown-style approach, still wants to take things forward from the attitude of many here who are stuck in a rut, sth they call 'Polishness' for whatever reason.

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Oct 17, 11, 23:47 #96

Seanus:

Making a mockery of what, I-S?

Making a mockery of the clergy in a style than can only be described as the herd mentality style.

Seanus:

I find it despicable that a Pole allows another Pole the freedom to fire off in all manner of ways yet he takes issue with a foreigner that has another perspective and can thus point out some things which appear wrong in his eyes.

I'm obviously not going argue with fools, they can grumble for what its worth.
I take issue with you because you should know better.

Seanus:

We call that hypocrisy where I come from.

Well, what we have here is an unsuspected witness complex ?
You originate from a different denomination and culture,which the main feature is a prejudice towards Catholicism and a imprinted suspicion aimed at the RCC.
Somebody could call your position akin to hypocrisy !

Where are your valid points you would like to make? All you do is harp on about the herd mentality theme while making some insensitive cracks about priests and monies.
Thats a pitiful performance on your part, you can do better than that.

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Oct 18, 11, 00:08 #97

Seanus:

I find it despicable that a Pole allows another Pole the freedom to fire off in all manner of ways yet he takes issue with a foreigner that has another perspective and can thus point out some things which appear wrong in his eyes.

It's the partitions-complex
Every alien is sure to lie about Poland because he/she has no gain from approving/complementing it
When a Pole criticize it, it's because they do it to inform other Poles of what kind of Poland their imagining.

It's a very natural reaction when you see it from an more objective point of view: He saw the Pole as talking about paintings, while see you as having an sword in your hand (not attacking fully with it yet) but still holding a sword and talking negative about somethign that has to do with Poland.

Word of advice either go the German way polonizing yourself or lower the sword/throw it away

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Oct 18, 11, 00:09 #98

I-S, there is a fair percentage of Catholics in Scotland too. It's not like they are alien to me. I just question why they feel the need to bring money into the equation. Churches must come under national heritage and are thus catered for. What is the ultimate role of a priest? To spread the word of God? If so, he has his church and his followers so what else does he need?

There is no prejudice on my part. JustysiaS pretty much summed up my position. She doesn't seek to slate the denomination per se, she just dislikes how many people stray from the word of God and abuse the whole set-up.

Palikot made his money from business transactions, by getting out there and building up his profile. Priests are just preachers which is just a form of teacher. Why should they be any richer than public school teachers who slave away for the minimum wage?

wielki panThreads: 3 Posts: 278 Joined: Jan 7, 11 ♂	Oct 18, 11, 03:37 #99
Seanus: The state returns my investment through a pension further down the line. hmm if you think getting 900zl a month is a good pension, then you are easily pleased, you would be better off buying shares or real estate. Seanus: Palikot made his money from business transactions, by getting out there and building up his profile sure but please explain how he got the money?

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Oct 18, 11, 12:03 #100

Seanus:

Palikot made his money from business transactions, by getting out there and building up his profile.

Really ?pry tell us how he made his money :)

Seanus:

Priests are just preachers which is just a form of teacher

They are not just a from of teacher, they preform many services which your teacher has not.

Seanus:

Why should they be any richer than public school teachers who slave away for the minimum wage?

Why do you focus on minimum wage here? There is many teacher and many schools and do not try to convince me that all of them are getting the same money.
The same goes for priests, their income and accommodation differ.
Then again by public you mean run by the state I gather? Hows RCC is run by the state?
Then again I probably overestimated you.:)

Seanus:

Churches must come under national heritage and are thus catered for.

Please explain.

Seanus:

I just question why they feel the need to bring money into the equation

Who feel the need to bring money into equation?

Seanus:

If so, he has his church and his followers so what else does he need?

What else does he need ? What are you talking about ?

Seanus:

There is no prejudice on my part.

Either prejudice or ignorance about the subject.

Seanus:

JustysiaS

Please, .....I do not think much of her, and rightly so.

Seanus:

to slate the denomination per se, she just dislikes how many people stray from the word of God and abuse the whole set-up.

Well, thats a very noble sentiment but can you answer truly - how many ?and who is going to be a judge of that ?
Seems to me that your sentiment is a little like that that exist in a reality TV, you look for faults and failings(which undoubtedly are there)overlooking all good and great things because there boring.
So yes, your starting point is prejudiced.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Oct 18, 11, 19:32 #101
=Seanus]JustysiaS pretty much summed up my position. Where and when did it happen?

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Oct 18, 11, 23:58 #102

Wp, it doesn't mean my pension is that. It means I contribute towards it.

Palikot was a businessman who made a fortune. He was, um, creative in getting his cash and I'll say no more.

I-S, they perform some extras, yes, but nothing that tricky.

Overestimate? Maybe but I know how much public school teachers here get for the good work they do and I can safely tell you that Palikot got much more for, well, not such honest work.

In Scotland, churches come under the umbrella of national heritage and thus get money from the state for their upkeep. How much I don't know.

The RCC bring money into the equation.

What is needed in religion beyond a place of worship and belief? Geez, why do Poles have such a problem with this question. For crying out loud, what's so difficult about saying 'precious little more'?????

JustyS knows what she's about and I often agree with her.

There is no ignorance at all. I take the bull by the horns and ask hard questions whilst Poles tend to duck and dodge, sweeping uncomfortable bits under the carpet.

I-S, reality show stuff is tittle tattle and cheap thrills. I hope I ask serious questions and don't stoop that low. Your logic for me being prejudiced is flawed at best.

Pawian, it was a FB exchange.

As for Palikot, he does what he does and people can take him or leave him.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Oct 19, 11, 00:12 #103
Seanus Sean , it is your longest post ever! It is going to take me two days to read it. Come on!

wielki panThreads: 3 Posts: 278 Joined: Jan 7, 11 ♂	Oct 19, 11, 07:22 #104
Seanus: As for Palikot, he does what he does and people can take him or leave him. Seanus your are serious thinker... tell me apart from putting the boots into the church and the support of gays, can I ask what is his policy on the economy, unemployment, etc...

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Edited by: Richfilth Oct 19, 11, 08:39 #105

His economic policy is made of grand sweeping statements; reclaim the 50bn zl lost to the Church every year, amalgamate ZUS and KrUS into one structure with lower overheads and smaller handouts to farmers, and liberalise taxes so that big companies can generate cash quicker.

There's more than a hint of Reaganomics in there, and while I don't think it will work, I'm happy he's there to challenge PiS, who are more Socialist in their welfare program than the Communists ever were.

RichfilthThreads: 8 Posts: 327 Joined: Mar 8, 09 ♂	Edited by: Richfilth Oct 19, 11, 09:00 #106
sorry, million not billion.

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Oct 19, 11, 11:28 #107

His economic policy? Well, he would likely go along similar lines as early-PO with a few tweaks along the way. He even said in an interview that he was impressed with Tusk's economic reforms early 2008.

As for unemployment, well, he'd likely value job creation in as many areas as possible and look for a reduction in the slightly sad GUS statistic of 13%. I think he'd look for more exchange programs too.

The point is that he has some more modern ideas yet their implementation would be by no means clear.

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Edited by: Ironside Oct 19, 11, 17:40 #108

Seanus:

Palikot was a businessman who made a fortune. He was, um, creative in getting his cash and I'll say no more.

Yep, he found wife with money and connections, and as soon as he secured his position he dumped her.
Why would you bring Palikot into equation at all? Priests are not businessmen and do not attempt to be.

Seanus:

I-S, they perform some extras, yes, but nothing that tricky.

Extras ? Dude you are clueless, they are working about 10 -12 h a day, sometimes more and their are on-call 24/7!
Now can you tell that about an average teacher - no.

Seanus:

In Scotland, churches come under the umbrella of national heritage and thus get money from the state for their upkeep. How much I don't know.

Well, that Scotland not Poland. Anyways that solution wouldn't work only for some churches in Poland. Some of those monies form the state are for upkeep of churches.

Seanus:

The RCC bring money into the equation.

What do you mean by that ?

Seanus:

What is needed in religion beyond a place of worship and belief? Geez, why do Poles have such a problem with this question. For crying out loud, what's so difficult about saying 'precious little more'?????

What do you need to teach expect for teacher and pupils? precious little more!What would be your point ?

Seanus:

JustyS knows what she's about

She is a stupid little ..... and let not talk about her anymore.

Seanus:

There is no ignorance at all. I take the bull by the horns and ask hard questions whilst Poles tend to duck and dodge, sweeping uncomfortable bits under the carpet.

My question is why are picking on the Church? You are not a Catholic, you said that if something works you let it be. Well, the Church in Poland works, need I say more?
There many things in Poland that do not work, focus on them.
To make it clear - you do not take a bull by the horns but you just ask general questions about the Church while you are clueless about details !
And you view of the Church is skewed by your background - basically you ask why the church is not more like Protestant Churches ?
Because!
As for uncomfortable bit you would have to come up with one first !Jocks about priests spending monies is not a serious question is it?

Seanus:

I-S, reality show stuff is tittle tattle and cheap thrills. I hope I ask serious questions and don't stoop that low. Your logic for me being prejudiced is flawed at best.

Maybe your intentions are good, but you know what they say in Poland about good intentions?
As for my logic, prejudiced or full of alien's preconceptions, same difference!:)

I-S (long post)

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