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Poland and Germany under NATO pressure to join combat in Libya


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boletusThreads: 47
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Edited by: boletus  Jun 8, 11, 20:39    #1
At the two-day conference of NATO defence ministers U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates pointedly prodded five allied nations to share more of the burden of the NATO-led air campaign against Libya: Germany, Poland, Spain, Turkey and Netherlands.
Gates said three countries that already are flying noncombat missions — Spain, Turkey and the Netherlands — should join in strike missions against ground targets. And he said two that are not participating at all militarily — Germany and Poland — should join in some form.

Gates also said that Poland and Spain are among those with assets such as jet fighters that may help ease the burden on nations that have been attacking Muammar Qaddafi’s forces for 10 weeks.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43328222/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa

On the picture: Polish Defense Minister Bogdan Klich, right, speaks with NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen during a round table meeting of NATO defense ministers at NATO headquarters in Brussels on Wednesday, June 8, 2011. NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen will use the two-day meeting of defense ministers to demand more allies step up in the fight against Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi.

Rasmussen persudes Klich
Rasmussen persudes Klich

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy  Jun 8, 11, 21:12    #2
Can't see Germany join physically.....a cheque or two is another matter...

This "mission" was set for 3 months max...by now Ghaddafi should have been history...so they told.
Now it's got prolonged indefinitely...what a quagmire!
boletusThreads: 47
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 Jun 8, 11, 22:03    #3
In the June 3rd article: "Poland, Libya, and Nato" Daria Dylla supports Polish decision of non intervention in Libya. She examines Poland's official motives:
- No direct interests in Libya
- Enhancement of her mediation capacity with Arab world during EU Presidency
- Reaching the limit of her military capacity by being involved in Afghanistan and being in process of implementing the professionalization of her armed forces

But the real motive is obviously the public opinion.
As the Polish opinion research center CBOS shows, the majority of those questioned believe that intervention in Libya to be right. 88 percent of Poles opposed, however, deploying of Polish military in the troubled region (CBOS, 7.4.-13.4.2011). Additionally, all relevant Polish political parties support the decision of the government on Libya. Since the next parliamentary elections in Poland will be held in autumn 2011, the Polish government would certainly be ill advised to take part in a military action in North Africa, if it does not want to upset its electorate.

http://www.acus.org/new_atlanticist/poland-libya-and-nato

That's right, they will continue promising some "humanitarian support", etc., but I do not think they will fall for all that sweet talk of NATO officials.
MalopolaninThreads: 8
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 Jun 8, 11, 22:08    #4
Are we going to kill more Gaddafi's grandchildren? Yeah!
pawianThreads: 90
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 Jun 8, 11, 22:11    #5
Bratwurst Boy:
Now it's got prolonged indefinitely...what a quagmire!


Air strikes will not solve the situation. What is needed is a land offensive but no one is ready to take part in it.

Indeed, quagmire. Poland was right to refuse joining it. I wouldn`t like Polish pilots to make mistakes and demolish civilian structures and kill innocent Libyans.
saschaThreads: 13
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 Jun 8, 11, 22:53    #6
Bratwurst Boy:
This "mission" was set for 3 months max...by now Ghaddafi should have been history...so they told.
Now it's got prolonged indefinitely...what a quagmire!

That happens when Angsthasen go to wargames... ;)


Malopolanin:
Are we going to kill more Gaddafi's grandchildren? Yeah!

Bs comment.

pawian:
Air strikes will not solve the situation. What is needed is a land offensive but no one is ready to take part in it.

As we learned NATO/US is not at all prepared for guerilla war and that would be the story here. They try as less as possible combat conatct...that's why they send f.e. drones in Pakistan. They have probably as standard equipment for NATO soldiers pampers in the ratio... ;)
legendThreads: 9
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Edited by: Moderator  Jun 8, 11, 23:03    #7
Poland should stay the **** out.

NATO can go to hell. Why can they bomb anyone they disagree with but others cant bomb them.
Carpet bombing civilians is all these sons of ***** can do.


PS. I really like when Poland and Germany stay neutral on these things.
saschaThreads: 13
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Edited by: Moderator  Jun 8, 11, 23:07    #8
legend:
I really like when Poland and Germany stay neutral on these things

That would be a must.


legend:
Why can they bomb anyone they disagree with but others cant bomb them.
Carpet bombing civilians is all these sons of ***** can do.

Noone yet is opposing them enough... ;)
isthatu2Threads: 13
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Edited by: isthatu2  Jun 9, 11, 01:30    #9
legend:
Carpet bombing civilians is all these sons of ***** can do

Has not taken place since World War two....................so I guess you spit on the graves of Polish Bomber crews with that little bit of melodrama......

legend:
NATO can go to hell.

Funny,you say that from the saftey of a NATO member nation.............hhhmmmm
legendThreads: 9
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 Jun 9, 11, 02:58    #10
isthatu2:
Has not taken place since World War two....................so I guess you spit on the graves of Polish Bomber crews with that little bit of melodrama......


If it happened after WWII I dont care who it is. Nato is a hypocrite alliance ruled by zionists and wasp.

isthatu2:
Funny,you say that from the saftey of a NATO member nation.............hhhmmmm


Thats nice. I had nothing to do with deciding if my nation joins it or not.
I cant decide on their actions either.
boletusThreads: 47
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 Jun 10, 11, 14:54    #11
Here comes the expected answer from Klich:
“We want to fulfil the duty we assumed ten years ago by joining the operation in Afghanistan. This is a fundamental task, which will determine [Poland’s] credibility in the [NATO] alliance. If we want to realise our task well, we cannot divide our resources,” Minister Klich told journalists yesterday at a three-day meeting of NATO defence ministers in Brussels.

and this
Bogdan Klich, who met with Robert Gates on Thursday, reminded that Poland has offered humanitarian aid to the Libyan people and its experience in building democracy and political support to the insurgents.

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/25431,Poland-Afghanistan-role-is-pr iority
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jun 10, 11, 18:40    #12
I thought that Obama declared there would be no combat operations in Libya. That guy is a lying toad and Poland should now stick their fingers up at him.
boletusThreads: 47
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Edited by: boletus  Jun 10, 11, 18:57    #13
^
I thought they were still talking about aerial bombardment only.
But NATO is getting nervous: Danish Airforce, because they have been very active since the beginning of the conflict, is running low on precision guided missiles (very expensive, btw). The talks are about Danes borrowing some ammunition from the Dutch arsenal. Brits started using old fashion, classical bombs last week. Hence, I think, this extra pressure.

Military-wise, I fail to see what Polish Airforce could do in Libya. MIG fighters could possibly do some strafing, SU are obsolete and are under withdrawal, F-16 - I have no clue whether they have even started exercises with live weapons. I know they can fly, but that's about it.
David_18Threads: 111
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 Jun 10, 11, 19:03    #14
Why do you think countries like Norway is there?

To fu*k up Libya so the oil prices rise. Norway is making billions on the libyan war.

I hope Poland wont join this stupid "peace" mission. All we do is making the Libyans suffer more.

Im not kidding but Gaddafi actually bought containers with viagra so his troops could easily rape the civillians.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Libya-Colonel-Gaddafi-Used -Mass-Rape-As-Weapon-Of-War-And-Bought-Sex-Drugs-For-Troops-ICC-Claims /Article/201106216008352?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header_4&lid=ARTI CLE_16008352_Libya%3A_Colonel_Gaddafi_Used_Mass_Rape_As_Weapon_Of_War_ And_Bought_Sex_Drugs_For_Troops%2C_ICC_Claims
wildroverThreads: 180
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 Jun 10, 11, 19:06    #15
boletus:
running low on precision guided missiles (very expensive, btw).



Might be a whole lot cheaper to set up an office somewhere and offer a thousand dollars to every Libyan soldier that deserts....

conflict would be over in a week....
David_18Threads: 111
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 Jun 10, 11, 19:09    #16
wildrover:
Might be a whole lot cheaper to set up an office somewhere and offer a thousand dollars to every Libyan soldier that deserts....

conflict would be over in a week....

Actually that was not a bad idea!

Send a letter to Brussels about it!
Piast PolandThreads: 3
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 Jun 10, 11, 19:11    #17
Anyone who believed it would only take a few months is an idiot. Good thing Poland and Germany got involved. Merkel was assertive and said that Germany position has not changed. Poland should do the same, unless I am mistaken and it already did.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jun 10, 11, 19:14    #18
David_18:
Send a letter to Brussels about it!


Yeah....sure....and who is gonna pay???
Piast PolandThreads: 3
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 Jun 10, 11, 19:18    #19
Bratwurst Boy:
Yeah....sure....and who is gonna pay???


NATO, much cheaper than Tomahawk missiles.
David_18Threads: 111
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 Jun 10, 11, 19:18    #20
Bratwurst Boy:
Yeah....sure....and who is gonna pay???

Germany?????
wildroverThreads: 180
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 Jun 10, 11, 19:19    #21
All the people who are at the moment paying millions to keep all these aircraft in the air and supplied with high tech weapons...

God knows how much its cost in fuel and lazer guided bombs already....
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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 Jun 10, 11, 19:24    #22
David_18:
Germany?????


Very probably.....
CrowThreads: 367
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Edited by: Crow  Jun 10, 11, 22:01    #23
is there any sign of reason among Polish politicians these days? any?
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Jun 10, 11, 22:03    #24
Polish politicians, for the most part, are utter buffoons. I've asked Poles which politicians they like here and they can't come up with any.

NATO should take a running jump. If the Polish government want to further lower their credentials then they should ask the people first as they don't want to be associated with such idiocy.
sobieskiThreads: 82
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 Jun 10, 11, 22:39    #25
Crow:
is there any sign of reason among Polish politicians these days? any?

You mean Khadafi has Serb/Sarmatian/lunatic connections?
legendThreads: 9
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Edited by: legend  Jun 10, 11, 23:05    #26
wildrover:
All the people who are at the moment paying millions to keep all these aircraft in the air and supplied with high tech weapons...

God knows how much its cost in fuel and lazer guided bombs already....


Canada claims: 26 million dollars (which is probably a big lie its much more)
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20110609/mackay-libya-mission-costs-6 0-million-110609/
ps I hate the guy in that picture.

United States: at least 550 million dollars
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/29/us-libya-usa-cost-idUSTRE72S 49520110329

UK: is spending 3 million pounds per day (?)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/libya-costing-britain-3 -million-a-day-2249628.html

Seanus:
Polish politicians, for the most part, are utter buffoons. I've asked Poles which politicians they like here and they can't come up with any.





You know I agree somewhat the the politicians are crazy. But then politicians from all countries are morons too its not just Poland.
The problem is not just the politicians but somewhat the people too.
How many different view points do Poles (or other countries) have amongst themselves.
There is people who support west, people who support east, both, none, etc.
Its madness! Such is life though good or bad up to you.
CrowThreads: 367
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 Jun 10, 11, 23:29    #27
legend:
You know I agree somewhat the the politicians are crazy. But then politicians from all countries are morons too its not just Poland.

politicians in Serbia are at least a little bit craziest then politicians in Poland. But, public in Serbia is more and better informed then public in Poland, i am absolutely sure about it. But, its the other question what Serbians have from the fact that they are better informed then Poles. Serbs suffer more. That`s what they have
boletusThreads: 47
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 Jun 10, 11, 23:54    #28
Mr. Gates is relentless, and the American press cites him profusely:
“The blunt reality is that there will be dwindling appetite and patience in the U.S. Congress — and in the American body politic writ large — to expend increasingly precious funds on behalf of nations that are apparently unwilling to devote the necessary resources or make the necessary changes to be serious and capable partners in their own defense,” Mr. Gates said.
Mr. Gates complained of what he called a “two-tiered” membership structure, “between those willing and able to pay the price and bear the burdens of commitments, and those who enjoy the benefits of NATO membership but don’t want to share the risks and the costs.” He added that some NATO partners are “apparently willing and eager for American taxpayers to assume the growing security burden left by reductions in European defense budgets.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/11/world/europe/11gates.html
This is just a plain bullying. But yes, he is partially right - it was the NATO's upper tier: France and Great Britain - that, for whatever reason they had, started all of that. But Mr. Gates should be advised to re-read what was already said two months ago in Washington Post:
Think about it: There was no NATO discussion of the operation, no debate, no vote, no joint planning. Technically, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization operates only in the wake of an attack on a NATO member. The war in Afghanistan followed such an attack and was, in the beginning, widely perceived as a war against a common enemy. Libya is different: There was no attack, there is no common enemy, and now there is no consensus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/will-the-libya-intervention-bri ng-the-end-of-nato/2011/04/11/AFhvpoMD_story.html
legendThreads: 9
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 Jun 11, 11, 05:07    #29
Is it true that the US never had approval from the congress to go to this war?
Piast PolandThreads: 3
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 Jun 11, 11, 05:16    #30
legend:
Is it true that the US never had approval from the congress to go to this war?


I think so. I heard Ron Paul talk about this and how congress has let it happen. Ron Paul is America's last chance. With Ron Paul Poland will be better off too.


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