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Poland and the Jews


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SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 15:26    #541
The first point is nonsense, Sokrates. Tiger Woods may well feel Asian as he is half-Asian. Maybe he associates with his Dutch side. Still, the fact remains that he is an American citizen and naturalised through his father's side.
PolishDudeThreads: 2
Posts: 34
Joined: Aug 3, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: PolishDude  Apr 23, 09, 15:30    #542
LAGirl:
NON Jews or Jews they were born in Poland they are just as much as Polish as the non Jews are. theya re your fellow countrymen and this crap will never end will it?

Oh, shut up. It's not the Poles who have a problem with Jews, its the JEWS who have a problem with poles.

Read this link


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3704136,00.html

Prominent Zionist-religious figure Rabbi Zalman Melamed this week stated that Poland is an "impure country riddled with anti-Semitism" that Jews should refrain from visiting.



Most Jews back then were commies who hated Poles, anyone with a brain can tell you that but it seem pro-Zionists on here dont understand it.

When the Russians invaded Poland.. guess who they supported? Yes, Russia against Poland. In fact when the Russians invaded the Jews helped the Russians dragged out innocent Poles to them and they were sent to the gulags!

You pro-Zionist pigs make me sick...
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 23, 09, 16:00    #543
Seanus:
The first point is nonsense, Sokrates. Tiger Woods may well feel Asian as he is half-Asian. Maybe he associates with his Dutch side. Still, the fact remains that he is an American citizen and naturalised through his father's side.

Citizenry is not the same as nationality, i never argued the fact that these Jews had Polish passports but they were no more Poles than Polish people living in partition era Prussia were German.
MiruThreads: 1
Posts: 59
Joined: Apr 20, 09 ♀ 		Edited by: Miru  Apr 23, 09, 16:04    #544
yehudi:
But Sokrates' comment about jews murdering Poles under Soviet rule is irrelevant to their nationality.

It's VERY relevant with their nationality.
You see, the problem with Jews and Poles back then was that the general line of thinking for both was "us or them".
Jews saw Soviets as allies while Poles saw them as enemies. For Poles collaboration with Soviets was treachery since they had killed or deported millions of polish people. Jews had no reason to fear Soviets and I understand that. However it's also understandable why Poles felt bitter about it - they were the ones paying with their lives. You certainly can't expect polish people to shut up and let themselves be killed.
What's worse is that since the majority of Jews were supportive of Soviets(for obvious reasons), Poles were suspicious of them (also for obvious reasons) and it was hard for a Jew to prove his loyalty and join polish partisan units (for obvious reasons). Therefore many were forced to join pro-communist units even if they didn't particularily want it. And the more Jews joined pro-communist units the more suspicious Poles became and... you get what I mean?
Then, after the war Soviets gave priviledged positions to people from pro-communist partisan units. Since the majority of jewish partisans were part of those, the percentage of Jews in the communist govenment was very high.
Which is how the myth of Jews being responsible for communism was created. And let's be frank - whether they like it or not, Jews did have a share in establishment of communism in Poland. It doesn't mean that Jews are to blame for communism though. It was merely an unfortunate chain of events that I just described. However, for those Jews who were in communist secret service there is NO excuse and we want Jews to acknowledge that fact just as most of us (not counting idiots) acknowledge the fact that there was a number of Poles that collaborated with the nazis and there's no excuse for them either.

It's simply IMPOSSIBLE for Poles and Jews to compare their situation during war because it was completely different.
Why do we have to fight for the title of a blameless victim?
Why can't we agree that BOTH nations suffered horribly, BOTH nations had their heroes and murderers, BOTH nations simply wanted to survive?
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Sokrates  Apr 23, 09, 17:01    #545
Miru:
Why can't we agree that BOTH nations suffered horribly, BOTH nations had their heroes and murderers, BOTH nations simply wanted to survive?

Miru i would be completely satisfied with Jews living wherever they want (unless its Poland) if they learned to keep the bloody hell away from us yet we keep hearing about holocaust, restitutions, "dialogue" which amounts to paying Jews and feeling guilty.

I hate dialogue with Jews, i dont give a damn whether they live or die, i'm completely indifferent to their existence and that amounts to 90% of Polish population yet various Jewish groups keep demanding dialogue which translates to concessions on their behalf.
Miru:
Why do we have to fight for the title of a blameless victim?

Because Jews claim they're blameless victims and try to push the corpses of the Poles they murdered under the carpet, in the name of our history we cannot and should not allow Jewish genocide on the Poles to be forgotten or relabeled as Soviet.

We need to remember Jewish hostility towards Poles simply to avoid repeating mistakes such as inviting Jews to Poland or treating Polish Jews as anything other than aliens with Polish passports.
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
Posts: 2,529
Joined: Apr 27, 07  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 18:42    #546
Sokrates:
Its VERY relevant, Jews murdered Polish people because these people were Polish, no other reason, by doing this not only did the Jews stained themselves with the mark of ethnic cleansing but forever drew a line between a Polish Jew and a Pole.

A Polish Jew is a person living in Poland, perhaps speaking Polish but regardless whether he was born here or came here he is not a Pole, he's an alien to us and that has nothing to do with anti-semitism and everything with the choices the major part of Jewish community in Poland made historically.

You make interesting comments...If I may get 'semantical', I would distinguish between Jewish Poles, that is, Poles who are native, speak Polish and integrated into Polish culture, but practice the religion of Judaism, and Polish Jews, who remain an outside force...But it can be very hard to distinguish...In America, we have Polish-Americans, who are loyal to the USA first and foremost, although they keep and maintain the Polish language and traditions...Then we have American Jews, who are Israel/Jewish first and foremost, a continuation of the problem Europe has always had with many Jews...A very difficult problem...I give an illustration:

Oswiciem

Now, I don't know what the nationality of these young men are: they don't look Polish...This, at Oswiciem...But what flag do they carry in the country of Poland?...You see the possibilities of a problem here?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 19:00    #547
Sokrates, you said "if you feel a Pole". Feeling is not the deciding factor here. That's what I was getting at, I'm well aware of the differences in PIFL
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 19:06    #548
Seanus:
"if you feel a Pole". Feeling is not the deciding factor here.

for me its the major factor. you can be mutamba chujamba from burkina faso but if you honestly love this country and work for this country and call it yours im my eyes you are a good Pole and i prefer you than 10 Janków Kowalskich, ethnic Poles who dont give a **** about this land.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Sokrates  Apr 23, 09, 19:35    #549
Seanus:
Sokrates, you said "if you feel a Pole". Feeling is not the deciding factor here. That's what I was getting at, I'm well aware of the differences in PIFL

Ketling disagrees with you, and he's your countryman and he's as Polish as you can get.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 21:47    #550
Well, sorry to shoot you both down but your logic stinks. I could go to China and really feel Chinese with my heart and soul but I'd still be Scottish.

I don't care who Ketling is frankly.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 23, 09, 22:00    #551
Seanus:
I don't care who Ketling is frankly

Read Pan Wo³odyjowski, it will explain my point far better than any argument, Ketling was a Scotting noble who came to Poland and lived here.
Seanus:
with my heart and soul but I'd still be Scottish.

You're not what you're born, you're what you have it in yourself to be, if you have it in yourself to become a Pole than Pole you are regardless of color, culture or anything else, if my logic stinks than USA should not exist.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 22:14    #552
I didn't say that, Sokrates. I may have been born in China but moved away when I was 2. I'd see no meaningful connection to that country other than a short stint.

You can have Polish values and a Polish work ethic but good luck holding that up in a court of law, differentiating it from an American work ethic or a Scottish work ethic.

Trust me, many people have tried to penetrate and become an integral part of a culture like Japanese culture but you never really achieve it. You can feel it all you want but it's your feeling and not that of true Japanese people.
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: pawian  Apr 23, 09, 22:38    #553
Sokrates:
We need to remember Jewish hostility towards Poles simply to avoid repeating mistakes such as inviting Jews to Poland or treating Polish Jews as anything other than aliens with Polish passports.

Who is we? Speak for yourself and stop identifying yourself with the whole Polish nation, if that`s what you mean.


Sokrates:
We need to remember Jewish hostility towards Poles simply to avoid repeating mistakes such as inviting Jews to Poland or treating Polish Jews as anything other than aliens with Polish passports.

If there was any hostility, let`s frankly admit it was Poles who started it before the war. We already talked about it: the bench ghetto, numerus clausus, economic boycott, Jews to Madagascar, pogroms etc etc. Do you think during Soviet invasion Jews turned against Poles without a reason??? No, Polish pre-war antisemitism, when rabid nationalists planned to clean Poland of Jews, was remembered by Jews very well...... We can say that Poles bred the monster themselves... It is painful but true...


Sokrates:
by doing this not only did the Jews stained themselves with the mark of ethnic cleansing but forever drew a line between a Polish Jew and a Pole.

As I said before, the first line had been drawn much earlier, with the first anti-Jewish slogan shouted or banner hung by nationalists in 1930s, with silent approval from the rest.
Day without Jews
k

Jews to ghetto
g





Sokrates:
to avoid repeating mistakes such as inviting Jews to Poland or treating Polish Jews as anything other than aliens with Polish passports.

The treatment of Jews as aliens was applied by Nazis with known results. You seem to call for Poles to be like Nazis???




One more thing. Can you stop altering my posts? I know you are a liar and conman, you have proven it before, but if you want to come out a bit serious in discussions, you should play fair, not dirty. Otherwise other people will also look on you as a liar and conman. Ponia³??? :):):)

Sokrates:
pawian:
Yes, I can proudly say that I am anti-Polish

The real post was
pawian:
Yes, I can proudly say that I am as pro-Jewish as you are anti-Polish. :):):)
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Sokrates  Apr 23, 09, 22:46    #554
pawian:
Who is we? Speak for yourself and stop identifying yourself with the whole Polish nation, if that`s what you mean

You've been identified as a Polish jew from Kraków, everything you write is biased mate, its conceivable that your family is among those many Jews responsible for genocide on the Polish nation and you post on a forum that presents Poland internationally with express intention of defaming Polish nation, like i said jews, including yourself are a hostile alien group.
pawian:
If there was any hostility, let`s frankly admit it was Poles who started it before the war.

You lie as always, jews started it by supporting the Soviets in the 20s thats what earned them a mark of hostile traitors.
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: pawian  Apr 23, 09, 22:53    #555
Sokrates:
You've been identified as a Polish jew from Kraków, everything you write is biased mate, its conceivable that your family is among those many Jews responsible for genocide on the Polish nation and you post on a forum that presents Poland internationally with express intention of defaming Polish nation, like i said jews, including yourself are a hostile alien group.

:):):) If you weren`t such a ridiculous moron, you would be a tragic moron. :):):)

PS. How is your private gas chamber working? Do you play it everyday? After or before participating in the forum?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 22:56    #556
I don't think Pawian defames anyone. A Pole speaking against Poland is a rare breed and he is just being objective. You don't live in Paradise, sunshine, and you have large anti-Semitic elements.

Poland is unfortunate amongst historians. The Kielce Pogrom of 1946 was a farce. It wasn't orchestrated by Poles but many think otherwise.

Many prominent figures in Poland, back in the day, were Jewish. Their stature was admirable and they knew how to do business. Still, they took on a kind of Polishness, Sokrates. It's not like they were Arabs who made the grade here.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 23, 09, 22:59    #557
Seanus:
Pole speaking against Poland is a rare breed

He's not a Pole he's a Jew, he was posting with the same avatar on the polish-jewish forums not only that but he's delibaretly lying and leaving out crucial facts.
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 23:05    #558
Sokrates:
He's not a Pole he's a Jew, he was posting with the same avatar on the polish-jewish forums

Liar, liar! :):)

I have not participated in any Polish Jewish forum yet. If I have, find it for us all to see. :):):) I suppose you know a lot about them, so which ones do you recommend to join? :):):)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 23:05    #559
I think he's Polish. Look, Sokrates, I know it's rare but Jews speak against Jews. Look at Finkelstein.

Still, I was disgusted with the recent 'investigation' conducted by the Knesset into Operation Cast Lead. What a bloody joke that outcome was! Still, they can get off with, well, murder :(
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 23:11    #560
Seanus:
I think he's Polish. Look, Sokrates, I know it's rare but Jews speak against Jews. Look at Finkelstein.

I don`t speak against Poles. If I do, it is against Polish antisemitism which is sickening in its blind primitive fury.

Seanus:
I don't think Pawian defames anyone. A Pole speaking against Poland is a rare breed and he is just being objective.

This is much better. Thanks. :):):)
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Moderator  Apr 23, 09, 23:13    #561
pawian:
I have not participated in any Polish Jewish forum yet.

Same avatar, same arguments? Same city in registration? On FÆP you've been arguing how all Poles are closet anti-semites, sorry buddy but you're biased against Poles as bloody hell.

Please, stop this flame war.
Thank you.
BarneyThreads: 16
Posts: 1,630
Joined: May 26, 08  Pictures: 3 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 23:17    #562
yehudi:
in many countries around the world, Poland and Israel included, nationality and ethnicity and religion are very overlapping

Probably the most sensible thing on this thread.
The power of religion is greatly underestimated in much of todays western world.
pawian:
when rabid nationalists planned to clean Poland of Jews, was remembered by Jews very well...... We can say that Poles bred the monster themselves... It is painful but true...

I can identify with this very well and know what it means in practical terms especially the painful self examination (as a nation) it involves.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 23:17    #563
Pawian will likely agree, having lived here for much longer than I have, that many Polish people are defensive when thinking in their L1. There is much potential for this to be avoided when they think in English. I don't see much intolerance in the classroom, I respect the views of Poles towards Jews and other issues.

Still, sometimes I wish I didn't know Polish when drinking out in the open. The hot air I hear is an affront on the ears. An assault at times.
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: pawian  Apr 23, 09, 23:34    #564
Sokrates:
You lie as always, jews started it by supporting the Soviets in the 20s thats what earned them a mark of hostile traitors.

How much deeper shall we dig? :)
You mention the 20s of 20th century.

What about pogroms of 19th century? Did you ever read the book Mendel Gdański written by M. Konopnicka in 1889, about an old Jewish craftsman who experiences a pogrom and becomes bitterly disappointed with Poland?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 23:39    #565
Well, pawian, your argument is a bit weaker this time. A Jew?? Wow, 1. Who gives a toss? Sorry
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Apr 23, 09, 23:39    #566
Sokrates:
Same avatar, same arguments? Same city in registration? On FÆP you've been arguing how all Poles are closet anti-semites, sorry buddy but you're biased against Poles as bloody hell.

Either give us a link to the forum with my avatar or stop spreading these lies. You are losing all credibility you could have retained so far.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 23, 09, 23:39    #567
pawian:
What about pogroms of 19th century? Did you ever read the book Mendel Gdański written by M. Konopnicka in 1889, about an old Jewish craftsman who experiences a pogrom and becomes bitterly disappointed with Poland?

The same Konopnicka who was agitating for murder of AK soldiers and wrote this completely fictional story? Yes i did, a nice little pamphlet.
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,399
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: pawian  Apr 23, 09, 23:46    #568
Sokrates:
The same Konopnicka who was agitating for murder of AK soldiers and wrote this completely fictional story? Yes i did, a nice little pamphlet.

The knowledge of Polish literature isn`t your strong asset, I must say. :):):)

No, Konopnicka couldn`t have written anything about AK because she had lived 1842-1910. Either you are joking (in a very peculiar way) or you really don`t know such things and that`s truly funny, because it suggests you are not Polish. Have you been brought up in Poland at all? :):):)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Konopnicka

Hey , I am still waiting for the link to Jewish forum with my avatar....
WooPeeThreads: 3
Posts: 133
Joined: Jul 1, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 24, 09, 02:34    #569
I really wish to see more Jews in Poland. Wish to see them again on the streets just like our grandparents used to see them and experience their culture, music and language.
PolishDudeThreads: 2
Posts: 34
Joined: Aug 3, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 24, 09, 03:25    #570
WooPee:
I really wish to see more Jews in Poland. Wish to see them again on the streets just like our grandparents used to see them and experience their culture, music and language.

You forgot to add their communist views!

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