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Poland and the Jews


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z_dariusThreads: 22
Posts: 5,091
Joined: Oct 18, 07
Edited by: z_darius  Apr 24, 09, 20:40    #601
sjam:
Here is just one of many Polish Jews that were not rescued by the AK but were in the ranks of the AK after the Ghetto Uprising:

Stanislaw Likiernik: a member of 'Kedyw', a sabotage and diversionary section of the Home Army, between 1942–1944 he participated in armed actions against Germans in occupied Warsaw. During the Warsaw Uprising his unit was involved in combat in Wola, Old Town, Czerniakow and City Centre districts.

OK, so that's one of some 3 millions, and less than the number of Jews in the service of the Nazi regime.
Got more?

MiruThreads: 1
Posts: 59
Joined: Apr 20, 09
Edited by: Miru  Apr 24, 09, 20:41    #602
sjam:
If the older sibling knows what is going on and does or says nothing to prevent what is going on, then yes this older sibling has some responsibility in the events; is that not so?

...huh? Tell whom? just what is the average polish civillian supposed to do to prevent german soldiers from liquidating ghettos?

All Poles who had the courage and opportunity to help did so.
SokratesThreads: 19
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Edited by: Sokrates  Apr 24, 09, 20:56    #603
A gruesome account of crimes commited on Jews by Poles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPj8sxgz3AY
MiruThreads: 1
Posts: 59
Joined: Apr 20, 09
 Apr 24, 09, 20:58    #604
My God, how could they! Gruesome indeed!
SokratesThreads: 19
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 Apr 24, 09, 21:00    #605
Miru:
My God, how could they! Gruesome indeed!

Notice the priest leading the pogrom, Jews had no chance, no chance at all.
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam  Apr 24, 09, 21:05    #606
z_darius:
Got more?

With respect you implied that any Jews that were in the AK were first liberated by the AK and I have given you an example that clearly refutes this plainly ignorant statement.

Miru:
...huh? Tell whom?

This is your analogy not mine--but the police or anyone else who could stop the abuse.


The Righteous Among the Nations memorials at Yad Vasham has honoured many 'average Polish civillians' --more than any other nation has it not?
SokratesThreads: 19
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 Apr 24, 09, 21:08    #607
sjam:
With respect

You have no respect towards Poland or historical truth or justice, you're here just to blaim and falsely accuse Poles and Poland.
sjam:
The Righteous Among the Nations memorials at Yad Vasham has honoured many 'average Polish civillians' --more than any other nation has it not?

Not enough, it failed to acknowledge the serious nation wide effort of Poles instead willingly downplaying Polish sacrifices, its less about genuine gratitude towards Poles and more of an attempt to instill guilt that we could have done more, we could not and we still did a lot more than anyone else.
MiruThreads: 1
Posts: 59
Joined: Apr 20, 09
 Apr 24, 09, 21:18    #608
sjam:
This is your analogy not mine--but the police or anyone else who could stop the abuse.

It was a Pole who informed the West of Nazi antrocities. Consider it an analogy.
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam  Apr 24, 09, 21:18    #609
Sokrates:
You have no respect towards Poland or historical truth or justice, you're here just to blaim and falsely accuse Poles and Poland.

... and murder Polish babies, isn't that also what you claim I wrote :-)))


Miru:
It was a Pole who informed the West of Nazi antrocities.

The only factual statement you have made! In fact 43% of all intelligence reports from occupied Europe to the Western Allies was supplied by Poles and is recognised an invaluable contribution in the defeat of Nazi Germany.
SokratesThreads: 19
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 Apr 24, 09, 21:23    #610
sjam:
... and murder Polish babies, isn't that also what you claim I wrote :-)))

Ofc and Polish widows, elderly widows, i'm still struggling to undestand why are you so hellbent on spitting on Poland.
MiruThreads: 1
Posts: 59
Joined: Apr 20, 09
 Apr 24, 09, 21:32    #611
sjam:
The only factual statement you have made! In fact 43% of all intelligence reports from occupied Europe to the Western Allies was supplied by Poles and is recognised an invaluable contribution in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

See? Like I said - we did all we could. I'm sad that it was still not enough to save the lives of 3 millions of Jews but Poles as a nation are no more responsible for their death as for the death of 3 millions of ethnic Poles.
Neither are Jews as a nation responsible for the death of millions of Poles at the hands of the communists, despite what some may claim.
sjamThreads: 5
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Edited by: sjam  Apr 24, 09, 21:34    #612
Sokrates:
why are you so hellbent on spitting on Poland.

Only on Polish anti-semites :-))

Miru:
Like I said - we did all we could.

Wladyslaw Bartoszewski thought not. He was there so would know better than you or I.

Miru:
death of millions of Poles at the hands of the communists,

How many millions of Poles were killed at the hands of the communists?
SamenessLoveThreads: 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Apr 24, 09
Edited by: SamenessLove  Apr 24, 09, 21:37    #613
Let me see if I can break this argument down. You could:

1) Claim that Poles had no moral obligation to help Jews.

2) Claim that Poles had an obligation to help and they did not fulfill it.

3) Claim that Poles had an obligation to help and they fulfilled it as best they could.

So which one are you?
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam  Apr 24, 09, 21:47    #614
For my part none on your list, so I will add one further:

4) Claim that the majority of Poles felt no moral obligation to help Jews.

which is the one where I am at and that is No.4.

Hope this helps answer your open question?
MiruThreads: 1
Posts: 59
Joined: Apr 20, 09
Edited by: Miru  Apr 24, 09, 21:57    #615
sjam:
He was there so would know better than you or I.

So was my greatgrandmother who was the only survivor after her village was burned to the ground along with the inhabitants after Nazis found out that one of the villagers had more food than Poles were allowed. She had never seen Jews in her life. In what way exactly is she responsible for their death?

So was my greatgrandfather who provided a jewish man with clothes and food and smuggled him out of the town - only to see him again two days later at his doorstep with the gestapo right behind him. The man (not one bruise on him) looked my greatgrandfather in the eyes and simply said that it was him who had helped him. For that, half of my family was brutally tortured and murdered. My greatgrandfather was 'only' tortured but he was eventually released. He came back at night to collect the bodies of his family members.
All Jews in town knew that this was happening yet did nothing to help him. True, they were terrorised, but so were the Poles and yet we are blamed. Does this mean that Jews are responsible for my family's suffering?
Also, the jewish man had been killed so obviously my greatgrandfather didn't 'do enough' to save him. Does that make him responsible for that man's death?

You said that Bartoszewski would know better than you, since you weren't there. And yet here you are - sitting comfortably behind the computer screen and passing judgements on people who had to go through hell.
pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  Apr 24, 09, 22:08    #616
Ghetto commemoration project in Lodz by Polish youth
thenews.pl
21.04.2009

Over 1,000 Polish schoolchildren and a youth group from Israel have started a project in Lodz, central Poland, today to mark off the borders of the former ghetto – this year commemorates the 65th anniversary of it's liquidation.
[...]
The young people taking place in the project are equipped with stencils of the slogan `Litzmannstadt Ghetto 1940-1944' and white paint to mark on the sidewalks and streets that bordered the ghetto. The project started in the Old Town market square.

"The project has two dimensions. The first of which is to commemorate what happened here years ago. The second is to work with young people to break down stereotypes of Poles and Jews," stated Symcha Keller, a representative of the Jewish district in Lodz.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/humaninterest/artykul106683_ghetto_ commemoration_project_in_lodz_by_polish_youth.html
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam  Apr 24, 09, 22:09    #617
Miru:
In what way exactly is she responsible for their death?

Clearly she is not.

Miru:
Does mean that Jews responsible for my family's suffering?

The Jewish man you ggfather tried to save was clearly responsible for these deaths.

Miru:
Does that make him responsible for that man's death?

Your ggfather proved that ordinary Polish civilians could and did take extraordinary action. That he took action clearly shows he did what he could to save another person. So no he was not responsible for this death.

Only those that could have helped but felt no moral obligation to help are culpable.

BTW. We are all sitting behind our computer screens passing judgements on one thing or another :-))
MiruThreads: 1
Posts: 59
Joined: Apr 20, 09
Edited by: Miru  Apr 24, 09, 22:21    #618
sjam:
Only those that could have helped but felt no moral obligation to help are culpable.

So... what were we arguing over all this time? I kind of thought that the whole thing was about me saying that Poles as a nation are not responsible for holocaust and you saying otherwise... but maybe it was a miscommunication or something.

sjam:
BTW. We are all sitting behind our computer screens passing judgements on one thing or another :-))

Heh, true.
PerszingPruszekThreads: 2
Posts: 24
Joined: Apr 23, 09
 Apr 24, 09, 23:47    #619
No!!!!!! see people like you are just talking crap.
Poles are Poles. and jews are jews. We never were "fello countrymen" and never will.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Apr 24, 09, 23:51    #620
True enough but efforts were made to bridge the gap. Ever heard of Ludvic Zamenhof? I'll tell you what he did if not.
osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07
 Apr 24, 09, 23:58    #621
Seanus:
Zamenhof

Dr. Zamenhof?
SeanusThreads: 22
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Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Apr 24, 09, 23:59    #622
Yes, Sir :)
osiolThreads: 59
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Edited by: osiol  Apr 25, 09, 00:03    #623
What about his daughter Lidja? I know a bit about her, mostly for being one of the first, if not the first Bahai in Poland. She refused help from Poles who offered her shelter in WWII, telling them that it would be unfair to put them in any more danger.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Apr 25, 09, 00:05    #624
Well, I don't know. I know that Zamenhof was a Polish oculist who tirelessly laboured in order to facilitate a dialogue between Jews, Poles and Belarussians. He should've known just how different Jews were from Slavic Poles and Belarussians.

Good old Esperanto!
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
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 Apr 25, 09, 00:07    #625
Seanus:
True enough but efforts were made to bridge the gap. Ever heard of Ludvic Zamenhof? I'll tell you what he did if not.

Luckily enough there's something like 20.000 Jews in a 38.5 milion Poland so we dont really need dialogue and if they demand it, i'm sure Israel has room for 20 thousand people.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
 Apr 25, 09, 00:16    #626
Why not be proud of having a Jewish contingent? Kazimierz is a nice quarter of Krakow.
SamenessLoveThreads: 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Apr 24, 09
 Apr 25, 09, 00:46    #627
sjam:
4) Claim that the majority of Poles felt no moral obligation to help Jews.

Doesn't clarify. Your #4 does not rule out any of the other ones.
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
Posts: 2,529
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 Apr 25, 09, 02:09    #628
SamenessLove:
This is an interesting proverb. But how do you relate it to what LAGirl said. I'm not seeing the connection.

Simply making a comparison.
LAGirlThreads: 13
Posts: 598
Joined: Apr 11, 08
 Apr 25, 09, 02:46    #629
No you people I was defending the jews they are smart. my best friend and ex husband are Jews. I am saying stop picking on them and wake up.
HatefulBunch397Threads: -
Posts: 1,018
Joined: Nov 5, 08
 Apr 25, 09, 02:49    #630
joepilsudski:
Simply making a comparison.

Yeah I can understand where some on this thread are coming from but how does this affect Joe, exactly? Joe, you live in the US like me and we are all supposed to get along here :D
So stop your picking on the jews, Joe or I will have to call the Anti Defamation League on ya ;)


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