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Poland and Muslims (Tatars and others).

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posts: 84

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 28, 09, 14:29 #61
I'm not mephias but it's partly because of lack of acceptation by the locals and also that their prayer requirements don't always square with the needs of the working week. They need to pray more often than Christians do. Also, many Muslims eat only halal. All should according to their religion. Halal is available in parts but you have to look hard to find it.

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Edited by: mephias Nov 28, 09, 14:41 #62

King Sobieski

Some of them are integrating some of them are not.
I will explain three different scenarios there can be thousands.

Worst scenario
- Muslim family, came to a western country. Parents are not open to changes or any differentiation other than their culture. And they continue interact with people only from their culture. Also their child raise in restricted group and will not interact with other group. In this case all of family will stay intolerant and will not integrate for a very long time.

Better one (long term integration)
- Muslim family, came to a western country. Parents are not open to changes or any differentiation other than their culture. And they continue interact with people only from their culture. But the children interact with some other people from other cultures and if open and clever enough can mix the good side of all cultures in him.

Optimistic one (short term integration)
- Muslim family, came to a western country. Parents are open to changes or any differentiation other than their culture. And they continue interact with people from all cultures. Also they raise their child as a tolerant people. And they make their choices.

But other side of the mirror, I don't see any difference between a racist and fanatic muslim.

Seanus:

I'm not mephias but it's partly because of lack of acceptation by the locals and also that their prayer requirements don't always square with the needs of the working week. They need to pray more often than Christians do.

Food or praying only symbolic part of religion. And normally if someone educated enough (I also mean religious education). This kind of things won't cause any kind of problems for integration. I believe most important part is having friends from all the cultures and to be able to see positive sides in all of them.

King SobieskiThreads: 7 Posts: 1,106 Joined: Jan 22, 07 ♂	Nov 28, 09, 14:55 #63
mephias i think you have nailed it. i actually know a few a muslims and they are respectful of western values and society. on the other hand, there are muslim immigrants who make no attempt to integrate. from my experience, it seems if muslims are educated then they are in the first group, if not, then they generally fall into the second group.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 28, 09, 15:12 #64
Well, maybe not Turkey then but all the Muslims I have known pray at least 3 times a day. This is a must for them. Integration is a tricky process, truth be told. I had no real problems integrating here but I wouldn't describe it as full integration. There are those that I just don't want around me and that's preference.

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 812 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER ♂	Nov 28, 09, 15:31 #65
Seanus: Well, maybe not Turkey then but all the Muslims I have known pray at least 3 times a day. This is a must for them. Yes also in Turkey, 5 times in a day normally. Seanus: Integration is a tricky process, truth be told. I had no real problems integrating here but Poland is not the most difficult place to integrate :). I came six month ago and I enjoy it :)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 28, 09, 15:33 #66
The Poles accept Turks very well. Trust me, there'd be many disappointed people if the Turks let. Kebabs and smiles, a great combo! Prayer is so important and there aren't many mosques around in Poland, of course.

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09 ♂	Nov 28, 09, 15:41 #67
Seanus: Kebabs and smiles, Yeah, it's funny to sell sandwiches with contain ratshit !

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 28, 09, 15:44 #68
What on earth are you talking about? Kebabs are not the purest food in the world but they are a strong bond between the Poles and the Turks. Kebabs are so tasty!

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09 ♂	Nov 28, 09, 15:47 #69
Seanus: Kebabs are so tasty! I didn't know you liked the taste of rat ****. Whatever floats your boat, Seanus boy.

MEMBER ♂

Nov 28, 09, 15:54 #70

Same rule applies for Kebabs and all other food which you eat in a restaurant you must be selective and careful about the hygiene in the place. In Turkey there are restaurants which has cameras in the kitchen (or has kitchen in visible area of the restaurant) and also clients can observe how the food is prepared.

I don't know if there is any in Poland, or if they have some quality certificate about it.

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Dec 3, 09, 16:34 #71

Just wanted to add a small pdf file from the norwegian health departement over restaurants/bars closed since april 2009 in Oslo. 34 and counting.

Take a look at the names. The article says, many of the restaurants closed are so-called "repeat offenders", and some even opened without a permit after being closed the first time.

http://www.mattilsynet.no/mattilsynet/multimedia/archive/00053/Liste_o ver_steder_Ma_53557a.pdf

I don't know about you, but this is serious business, people eat at these places and in worst case scenario, people can get seriously ill. The government needs to clamp down on how easy it is to establish a restaurant or bar. It even says in the article that many of these restaurants are/were used as bases for selling drugs, illegally imported alcohol and cigarettes, employment of illegal immigrants, tax-evasion and they even found loaded weapons in some of the restaurants.

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=588646

And this is not going to happen in Poland? Has the health authorities in Poland ever had such a control of Polands new kebab restaurants?

Dariusz

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Dec 3, 09, 21:10 #72

Just wanted to add this article from Rzeczpospolita about the Tatars and their relationship with the "new" muslims who have come to Poland. I believe some guy translated it from Polish to English.

http://blog.bearstrong.net/archive/weblog/001487.html

Seems the "new arabs", don't like the Tatars too much and feel they are betraying "real islam". And vice versa, the Tatars don't pressure their women to wear veils and even put up christmas trees and paint eggs on easter. But the "new arabs" EXPLODE WITH RAGE when they hear that they have to adapt to the Polish way of life...wow. Now that's integration!

The article, which seems a bit old, says there are 5 times as many muslim arabs in Poland than Tatars. So, 5000 Tatars X5 = 25 000 muslim arabs in Poland (2004)?

Dariusz

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 13 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Dec 3, 09, 22:43 #73
If you go to a new country it's obvious that you should adjust to the new culture and way of living. It works in both ways.

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09 ♂	Dec 4, 09, 00:21 #74
DariuszTelka Arabs are a plague. Poland needs some Israeli thinking going on....

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Dec 4, 09, 17:42 #75

SzwedwPolsce:

If you go to a new country it's obvious that you should adjust to the new culture and way of living. It works in both ways.

Yes. I have a cousin who works in the oil industry. He came to Norway from Poland when he was 14. By the time he finished college he had all A's, was in the norwegian american football team, got a black belt in Karate and got accepted to the navy flight school. (I always hated him....). But he was a polish kid with a norwegian grandmother and everything went well. Today he is married to a norwegian woman, has three daughters and life is good.

Then three years ago, his company got a big contract in Iran. He moved his whole family down there for a 2 year period. First thing they had to do is to remove any visible christian symbols (for fear of persecution or attacks), then they had to move into a camp for westeners, where they had security checks with armed guards. His wife had to wear a burka if she moved outside the camp, and the kids were not allowed outside without supervision. They had to obey all the muslim rules to the full, and were told not to behave "improperly" in official settings. Whatever that means. His mother came down to visit him too, and she also had to wear a burka. She was stopped at the airport for wearing a short sleeved shirt. Now, it's 40 degrees down there and they want a western woman to dress up all the way. Every day the yelling from the minarets would wake them in the early morning. There was no church nearby and anyhting they wanted to do, western style, they had to do at home. This obviously was not close to any "tourist" city or site, so they just had to deal with it. And they did. So why can't muslims who come to our countries accept our way of life and laws? Why do they want to bring the one thing that made their lives a living hell in their own countries with them here?

So, they can stuff their religion somewhere the sun doesn't shine, and they can shut up about minority rights until christianity is allowed freely in their own countries. Which is never going to happen...besides "minority rights", yeah, maybe they are a minority in Norway or Poland, but there are more IRANINANS living in Iran today, than Poles, Norwegians, Swedes, Finns, Danes and Icelanders TOGETHER living in our respective countries. And that is only 1 muslim country. So no minority, rather a majority.

Dariusz

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Dec 4, 09, 18:14 #76

BrutalButcher:

Arabs are a plague. Poland needs some Israeli thinking going on....

Well, I have to admit, that the only language arabs and africans know, is violence, intimidation and brutality. If you can juggle these things, you will succeed in their nations. But if you are like Norwegian, honest, reserved and non-aggressive by nature, you are seen as a coward and weak. The violence and hierarchical behaviour in muslims come from their culture and is ingrained in their every day life. They are always in packs of three or more and enjoy using their basic primal instincts on us westeners. It's all about their "clan", or their "gang", or "their streets". They don't HAVE to be muslim to act like this, just look at the gangs in the U.S. But it's all running through their veins.

The way the Israeli treat the palestinians is from a humanistic perspective horrendous. And from that perspective I don't accept anyone treating another human being this way. But, and this is a BIG but, when you have to deal with arabs, or africans, the only language they understand is force and violence. If you don't use this correctly, they will overtake you. So, I understand that the Israelis act this way, because faced with millions of arabs, all thinking like I mentioned above, they are uncontrollable unless you use abslolute force. You see this from the U.S troops when they address and talk to people in Iraq and Afghanistan too. There is no room for "formalities" or "humanity". Just straight to the throat and hold it there. If it works, and is good for humanity...well that is another discussion.

So, I believe the Polish government needs to be really hard and brutal on the muslim immigrants that are in Poland, if they break the law. But also before they break it. They need to know that ANY kind of criminal activity will be put down, harshly! From my experience, that is only a question of time and mass before Poland is going to read about drug busts in immigrant areas and rapes of polish women. (the amount of immigrants it takes in order for them to feel comfortable enough to start breaking it is fairly low). If they break the law, take them down in the basement and let them have some polish justice, the old way, and then a one way ticket out! And the whole family with them. I heard about the polish prisons, and I don't think a muslim would feel welcome in a small room with 4 or 5 other polish guys...especially if the muslim did something to a polish person, like rape or steal. Here in Norway the majority of inmates in our prisons are muslim, so no need to fear anything from "local" norwegians. Besides the prisons here are 5 star hotels compared to a normal life in their country. So they don't give a ****.

Dariusz

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Edited by: southern Dec 4, 09, 18:33 #77
The best solution is to bring in some Russians and let them clear.Russians don't take any bullsh1t really.

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Dec 13, 09, 08:09 #78

poland had at one time during the commonwealth a very tolerant stance on religion. while zealouts and fools to the west(like right next store if you know who iam talking about) were burning and persecuting out of fear and superstition, poland had a very sensible and progressive political system that didnt succumb to the whims of the holy empire or of ignorant wimps that would wipe out thousands of people just so they can feel safer.

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Edited by: DariuszTelka Dec 14, 09, 21:30 #79

Well, maybe Poland used to be very tolerant to other faiths and relgions, but in today's political climate and the islamification of Europe going on full speed, we will soon learn that they are not as tolerant to us as we are to them. Here is an article from Turkey, "The most western", muslim state.

It's from the website Human rights service, and is partly in english and norwegian (commented);

"Fully 59 percent of those surveyed said non-Muslims either “should not” or “absolutely should not” be allowed to hold open meetings where they can discuss their ideas. Fifty-four percent said non-Muslims either “should not” or “absolutely should not” be allowed to publish literature that describes their faith.

The survey also found that almost 40 percent of the population of Turkey said they had “very negative” or “negative” views of Christians. In the random survey, 60 percent of those polled said there is one true religion; over 90 percent of the population of Turkey is Sunni Muslim."

http://www.rights.no/publisher/publisher.asp?id=45&tekstid=3037

So, if this is how it is to be christian in Turkey, the most secular, western muslim state in the world, how is it to be christian in Iran? Or Indonesia? Or Egypt? Compare this with how it is to be muslim in Germany or England. Or Norway.

Again, I hope people really don't believe they will let us keep our faith the day they outnumber us. Then it will be one of two; Taqqyia, which is a special tax for non-muslims or death. You choose!

Oh, and here is another one, just for the fun of it. This is from Spain,

It's not from a muslim country, but one of our favourite tourist destinations, the country that proclaims in it's tourist brochures that it has "everything under the sun". Unfortunately that includes muslims;

"In Tarragona, 100 kilometers south of Barcelona, the police and a judge are currently investigating the first known sharia court in Spain. According to tapped telephone conversations and the testimony of the victim, a 30-year-old woman from North Africa under the assumed name of Boshra, “20 turbaned men sentenced me to death”. Her sin: having reported her partner to the police for threats following a disagreement over whether she should have the baby she was pregnant with by him. She wanted to have it; he did not. She was abducted and taken to a country house, where the sharia court deliberated for hours. The morning after, she was taken by a couple to a nearby house. At night, she overheard the couple arguing: the court had ordered the husband to kill her and the baby, and the wife was threatening to leave her husband if he carried out the sentence. Boshra took advantage of the confusion to flee. Ten of the 20 members of the sharia court have been arrested and face charges of up to 23 years in prison. Mohamed Arab, the man who was allegedly given the task of carrying out of the sharia court’s sentence, is out on bail. The victim’s partner lives abroad. Unfortunately, it is just a matter of time before honor killings, a sad reality among Muslim communities in Britain, France, and Scandinavia, begin to take place in Spain."

http://www.rights.no/publisher/publisher.asp?id=59&tekstid=3065

So, yes, alot of peace and tolerance here. Maybe our ancestors did the right thing when they completely annihilated the muslims whenever they entered our territory. Maybe we shold consider it again...

Dariusz

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09 ♂	Dec 14, 09, 21:37 #80
DariuszTelka: Maybe we shold consider it again... Your politicians love muslims way too much. And oh, Spain is quite near to Morocco...what did you expect? I don't know if you're a Christian, but if you are, you and your little friends should boycott Egypt. It's even worse than Turkey for Christians!

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Dec 14, 09, 21:51 #81

Hello Brutal Butcher (why this name... ;-))

No christian beliefs here. Since I grew up in Norway I found my salvation in the norse mythology. I wear my hammer of Thor proudly around my neck.

Not to say I'm against christianity, it is a significant part of everything our people have done for the last 2000 years. But when you scratch the surface and read up on the history, I'm sad to say, our progress as a people (The white european), it has not been BECAUSE of chrisianity, but in despite of it. Besides most western countries are now secular and christianity is only practiced for the sake of ceremonies and tradition in the family. But this dies out little by little as our older generations pass away. Too bad we allow another, ten times worse ideology to take it's place....

Dariusz

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Dec 14, 09, 22:00 #82

DariuszTelka

It's because of your de-christinianization that Islam is taking over Europe. If you think about it, Conservative Christian countries would never allow so many Mosques and minaretes to be built, but then again, you wanted progress, you have it; you didn't want Judaism and Christianity, wish granted...now you will see what will happen with your West, when Islam rules.

Either way, my nick is just me taking the **** on Black metalheads who name themselves "satan's necrobutcher" or "Extreme blasphemer"

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Dec 14, 09, 22:37 #83

BrutalButcher;

Yes, that is why I don't condemn christianity to such a degree. It has it's positive sides too. As Poland will be one of the last countries to bow down to the new ruler because of this fact. Unlike France, England and Germany who have behaved like ****** to their new masters, entertaining and accepting every beating and abuse that have come their way. Even apologizing for not accepting it fast enough. What cowards.

But up here in the cold north, christianity was implemented with the sword and the blood of the heathens. And so they will loose it back to us again, when the day comes. Freedom over slavery, dignity over worshipping and real men's morals over a book written thousands of years ago.

If christianity is what is going to keep Europe from collapsing under muslim rule, hm, well, then maybe we need a new war. A war that will leave ethnic europeans as winners, but not with a religion with a bloody christ on a cross as the head of state, but our ancient belief systems in nature and dignity as our guiding light.

Things have to get much worse, before they become better. Getting rid of two religions in the process is not against me. Norse mythology is just that, mythology. It was THE PEOPLE who controlled life. The tribe. They just needed symbols and stories to make it more interesting, but they did not let a book control their everyday life. Christianity in the 1400's and islam today is two sides of the same coin. (Only we had a higher IQ).

Dariusz

p.s. I know about the black metal scene..it used to be big here...Brutal Butcher, reminds me of Destructions Mad Butcher...I have the album. Good german thrash metal from the 80's...who are still around...).

Yousafzai

Jan 24, 10, 03:16 #84

DariuszTelka:

Dariusz Telka

You are a retard. I am a muslim Pakistani and I actually find you funny, funny because its too stupid to be taken serious and without any sense at all. I was following you in the other thread but after reading this post from you, I have come to know you are helpless. Your reasoning is beyond any sense, any point and complete garbage. I am not gonna waste my time on you so keep barking !

Just one more thing, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world with the biggest number of converts in all religions. And most of the people who convert to Islam, are from US and western europe :)

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