Poland needs a left wing govt.

the patThreads: 1 Posts: 1 Joined: Mar 13, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 17:08 #1
lately polands beenn doing rather shitly with these right wing nuts. there is no social assistance or benefits to those in need. The govt in corrupt to the bone. I feel that if we got some lefties into power this would all change and poland would become more society oriented, not to mention less racism and ant semitism. What do u guys think?

NojasThreads: 4 Posts: 92 Joined: Mar 7, 10 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 17:14 #2
I am not going to say what is right for Poland, but in order to have good social welfare, you first of all need wealth. And that does not come from lefties. All they can do is to take wealth that is already there and distribute, they cannot create it. And the last thing economies that want to grow need is higher taxes to fund expensive welfare systems.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Edited by: JonnyM Mar 13, 11, 17:16 #3
Nojas: but in order to have good social welfare, you first of all need wealth. And that does not come from lefti I don't see much "good social welfare" in countries with years of right-wing misery.

the patThreads: 1 Posts: 1 Joined: Mar 13, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 17:17 #4
ur probably right, bit a left wing government would redistribute wealth (at least I hope)

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 17:22 #5
To redistribute wealth effectively, there must be several factors in place. A centrist or centre-left government and huge public commitment to the program. The political scene in Poland has been poisoned by years of pretend communism followed by some of the nuttiest rigt-wing politicians outside (and from time-to-time inside) an assylum.

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Mar 13, 11, 17:28 #6

the pat:

What do u guys think?

I think you don't know anything about Poland. PO-PiS-SLD - major parties - are all more or less socialistic. What we need is free-market government. And there is almost no racism or antisemitism in Poland, because there are no other races or Semites to hate. All the hatred for blacks comes from American movies and stupid activists in the style of Mamadou Diouf, who are under the influence of American racial propaganda. With Jews its all because of Adam Michnik, Sławomir Sierakowski and company.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 17:38 #7
Malopolanin: there is almost no racism or antisemitism in Poland I'm sure we can all find a few examples. Without even having to look outside this forum.

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Edited by: skysoulmate Mar 13, 11, 17:53 #8

the pat:

lately polands beenn doing rather shitly with these right wing nuts. there is no social assistance or benefits to those in need. The govt in corrupt to the bone. I feel that if we got some lefties into power this would all change and poland would become more society oriented, not to mention less racism and ant semitism.

What do u guys think?

Sure, left wing brings nirvana, peace and kumbaya on earth. Oh, and multiple orgasms too.

Stop smokin' whatever it is you've got in your mouth, it's killing the few remaining brain cells you still have.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 17:55 #9
Such logic and reason, as the world has come to expect, with baited breath and bright shiny eyes, from the right-wing.

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Edited by: skysoulmate Mar 13, 11, 17:57 #10

JonnyM:

The political scene in Poland has been poisoned by years of pretend communism

Yeah, notice how you're defending the "real" communism with your nonsensical assumption that Poland had "pretend communism," that the revolutionaries weren't given a real chance. Oh, poor you little apparatchik.

JonnyM:

redistribute wealth effectively, there must be several factors in place.

Why don't you redistribute your a@* you leftist thief. Racial profiling is not your thing but I guess education/income profiling is nice and dandy.

♂ [Suspended]

Mar 13, 11, 18:04 #11

Malopolanin:

I think you don't know anything about Poland. PO-PiS-SLD - major parties - are all more or less socialistic.

Indeed, it's what the people want.

Hardly surprising after years of social welfare, though.

skysoulmate:

Yeah, notice how you're defending the "real" communism with your nonsensical assumption that Poland had "pretend communism," that the revolutionaries weren't given a real chance. Oh, poor you little apparatchik.

It certainly was pretend communism - I don't see much in common with the PRL and Marx's ideals, do you?

skysoulmateThreads: 41 Posts: 3,039 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 18:08 #12
delphiandomine: It certainly was pretend communism - I don't see much in common with the PRL and Marx's ideals, do you? Really? What part of "dictatorship of the proletariat" didn't you get?

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 18:08 #13
skysoulmate: Why don't you redistribute your a@* you leftist thief Lefist thief. Hmm, I've probably paid more in income taxes that you could every hope to be liable for...

skysoulmateThreads: 41 Posts: 3,039 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 18:10 #14
JonnyM: Lefist thief. Hmm, I've probably paid more in income taxes that you could every hope to be liable for... I seriously doubt it. ...but if you have then kudos to you. I wouldn't try to steal your hard earned money just because I believe in leftist theft ideology.

♂

Mar 13, 11, 18:13 #15

I don't know which countries you are referring to and more, what your definition of good social welfare is. What we can say is, that very few western countries are doing swell these days. Big welfare systems are a real pain for any economy, that's just how it is. They are very expensive. Greece can't/couldn't fund theirs. Neither can the brits. Ironically enough, they only truly work when times are good. When times are bad, it doesn't work for the simple reason that too many people depend on it.

Nobody should have to live on the street because they can't work (for whatever reason), that is my view on what welfare is about. But it can't go to excess, like it have in many western countries. And in order for them to exist, lot of people have to work and make money. You have to start in that end, and that is not left goverments strongest sides (my opinion).

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 18:14 #16
skysoulmate: I seriously doubt it I don't. No offence intended, and pointless having a who's richer than whom willy-waggling contest, but my tax bill in certain years may well have exceeded your income. But I don't begrudge the money. High taxes are the entry fee to a civilised society. Interesting that the name calling and aggression tends to come from one direction.

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Mar 13, 11, 18:16 #17

Here we go again,its the " I'm alright Jacek" show vs basic morality and the essential tenent of Christianity.....charity,helping those less fortunate,rich man with less chance in heavan than camel thru needle etc etc ad nauseum...yet still the right always trumpet their "God lovin/fearin" credentials much to the bitter amusement of the more rational proportion of the worlds poulation....ah well,white van man dont have to always be driving a white van.....

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Edited by: skysoulmate Mar 13, 11, 18:18 #18

JonnyM:

I don't. No offence intended, and pointless having a who's richer than whom willy-waggling contest, but my tax bill in certain years may well have exceeded your income. But I don't begrudge the money. High taxes are the entry fee to a civilised society.

Interesting that the name calling and aggression tends to come from one direction.

I agree that willy-waggling is pointless and I still contend I'd have you beat, two-fold. :)

The name calling came from you using the term "redistribution" which is both communism and a very filthy word in my book.

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Edited by: JonnyM Mar 13, 11, 18:19 #19

isthatu2:

its the " I'm alright Jacek" show vs basic morality and the essential tenent of Christianity.....charity,helping those less fortunate,rich man with less chance in heavan than camel thru needle etc etc ad nauseum...yet still the right always trumpet their "God lovin/fearin" credentials much to the bitter amusement of the more rational proportion of the worlds poulation....ah well,white van man dont have to always be driving a white van.....

It's the whole 'Randroid' thing - people believing that altruism is somehow bad, and that just because they aren't hungry they don't have to give a **** about those who are. Against the wisdom of all science, philosophy and plain common sense.

skysoulmate:

I agree that willy-waggling is pointless and I still contend I'd have you beat, two-fold. :)

I'm not so sure, but let's agree that we're both doing nicely :-)

skysoulmate:

The name calling came from you using the term "redistribution" which is both communism and name-calling in my book.

Yet even right-wing governments practise it to a certain extent.

I remember some idiot, in PL as it happened, who said that taxation could be compared to there only being two men in the world. One hard-working and one bone-idle. His point was that the hard-working guy shouldn't have to subsidise the bone-idle one. My (rather obvious) response was that this hard-working guy presumably has kids, so who's his privately educated well brought up daughter going to marry?

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Edited by: isthatu2 Mar 13, 11, 18:24 #20

No,its worse than that IMHO,altruism is a TAX break......even there its a competitive who can show most rather than who can do most attitude that seems to prevail.

" Liberals" can be just as bad,Ive had many arguments with people who want to spend a fortune on Africas unfortunates but who then snear at the unfortunates in their own towns as worthless lazy scum.....

personally Ive been dirt poor and Ive been in the 40% tax bracket,hopefully my ideas and maybe ideals (though idealism is something for teenagers,dangerous in adults and the powerfull.) are informed by my experiences not by my bank balance at any specific time in my life and how much I want to keep hold of/grudgingly hand over to the state.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 18:32 #21
isthatu2: personally Ive been dirt poor and Ive been in the 40% tax bracket Likewise, and it shows that one should never take material wealth for granted or judge others by their condition in life, which is essentially a lottery. It's just that some people are good at buying the right tickets.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 13, 11, 18:33 #22
skysoulmate: Really? What part of "dictatorship of the proletariat" didn't you get? The part where the leadership and Party members took everything for themselves and left the rest with very little. Bears very little in common with "from each according to his own, to each according to his need".

NojasThreads: 4 Posts: 92 Joined: Mar 7, 10 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 18:36 #23
isthatu2: " Liberals" can be just as bad,Ive had many arguments with people who want to spend a fortune on Africas unfortunates but who then snear at the unfortunates in their own towns as worthless lazy scum..... Those are the globalists/western hating lefties/oikofobians. Pay no attention to them, only thing coming out of those discussions is a high blood pressure. ;-)

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Mar 13, 11, 18:50 #24

JonnyM:

and that just because they aren't hungry they don't have to give a **** about those who are. Against the wisdom of all science, philosophy and plain common sense.

In simplistic terms. As a kid,my family had nothing to do with coal mining,all were University grads',all profesionals,we spent around 6 to 8 weeks each year in our holiday apartment in a remote spanish village.
But we lived in a small market town in the yorkshire coal fields surrounded by pit villages and proud working families. When Maggie Thatcher decided to go to war against the miners and the unions she destroyed them,closed almost all of the pits and started to import coal from silesia. In her determination to break the back of admittedly over powerfull unions she also calously broke the back of entire communities and decided it was cheaper to pay unemployment benifits than it was to invest in re starting the econamy. 20 years later and things were just starting to pick up with plenty of work available if you looked for it or created it,then the double blow of absurd levels of immigration followed by the banking crisis..........
Fine,take the right wing view and think if you are fine the world is fine,trust me though,thats cloud cukkoo land, all you end up being is terrified that your neighbours want all your gadjets and other useless commercial flotsam.

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Edited by: JonnyM Mar 13, 11, 19:14 #25

isthatu2:

When Maggie Thatcher decided to go to war against the miners and the unions she destroyed them,closed almost all of the pits and started to import coal from silesia. In her determination to break the back of admittedly over powerfull unions she also calously broke the back of entire communities and decided it was cheaper to pay unemployment benifits than it was to invest in re starting the econamy

In effect, a country declaring wars on its own people. With dreadful destructive results.

I was doing a consultancy recently in a foreign country. The other person I was with was a (very right-wing) old Etonian. I mentioned before we left the hotel (after a month's stay) about the tip for the chambermaid, and how much one ought to leave after a month, His answer was: "if people want more money they should get a better job"!

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Edited by: skysoulmate Mar 13, 11, 19:16 #26

JonnyM:

I'm not so sure, but let's agree that we're both doing nicely :-)

Agreed. :)

I see taxes as a necessary evil, yet taxation and redistribution are very different things. I believe in flat taxes but preferably consumption taxes (sales taxes). You buy more stuff you pay more taxes.

JonnyM:

His answer was: "if people want more money they should get a better job"!

I agree. That's the tenant of capitalism. Educate yourself, invent, try different approaches, different jobs.

Thatcher was 100% right, the unions are good as long as they focus on workers' pay and benefits. Once they turn to politics and resort to continuous blackmail they end up hurting the workers in the long run. Simply put they kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 19:28 #27
skysoulmate: Educate yourself, invent, try different approaches, different jobs. A 55 year old mother of six with an unemployed husband doesn't have too many options in that respect. skysoulmate: workers' pay and benefits. Which Thatcher and her ilk wanted to reduce to Nineteenth Century levels.

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Mar 13, 11, 19:34 #28

skysoulmate:

Thatcher was 100% right

lols................you missed the capitol R from right.

skysoulmate:

Once they turn to politics and resort to continuous blackmail they end up hurting the workers in the long run.

No,closing profitable mines and then importing from the Warsaw Pact region is hardly walking with angels now is it. A deliberate policy of non investment as the cold sums showed short term that paying unemployment benifits was cheaper than creating new jobs. No,the ***** will burn slowly in hell and I personally plan on pissing on her grave as soon as she is in the ground.

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Mar 13, 11, 19:36 #29

JonnyM:

skysoulmate: Educate yourself, invent, try different approaches, different jobs.
A 55 year old mother of six with an unemployed husband doesn't have too many options in that respect.

I agree. Yet, the fact she's 55, has 6 kids and an unemployed husband doesn't magically increase the government's pockets. It's not an easy situation for sure BUT the proper solution would be to create an environment where there are plentiful jobs so her husband can get a job too, rather than for her salary to increase simply because she's had a tough life. ...and yes, I do sympathize and I've personally helped family members, friends and friends of friends. Yet raising taxes is the worst thing a government can do. More jobs is ALWAYS the right solution, whereas higher government subsidies = higher taxes NEVER is.

JonnyM:

Which Thatcher and her ilk wanted to reduce to Nineteenth Century levels.

You view her legacy through the prism of your leftist beliefs.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Mar 13, 11, 19:37 #30
isthatu2: I personally plan on pissing on her grave as soon as she is in the ground. There'll be a bloody long queue for that. Personally I think she should be given to Gunther Von Hagen for plastination.

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