Poland now soft-pedalling ACTA signing

GregrogThreads: 1 Posts: 111 Joined: Feb 2, 09 ♂	Jan 26, 12, 19:01 #31
Ten's of millions people demonstrated in Poland in 1980' Did that make them right? As you see, invalid argument. Sorry to say, but you are talking bullshit.

JonnyMThreads: 15 Posts: 4,160 Joined: Mar 9, 11 MEMBER ♂	Jan 26, 12, 19:01 #32
Polonius3: Tens of thosuands of brownshirts deminstrated acorss Germany in the early 1930s. Did that make them right? Those 'tens of thousands' were demonstrating for repression, to bun books to restrict freedom. Different, no?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,677 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Jan 26, 12, 19:14 #33
JonnyM: Different, no? His point was clear to me anyway. Taking extreme examples and using them as similarities makes it an "invalid argument" with reference to Polonia3's post. Polonius3: Tens of thosuands of brownshirts deminstrated acorss Germany in the early 1930s. Did that make them right?

JonnyMThreads: 15 Posts: 4,160 Joined: Mar 9, 11 MEMBER ♂	Jan 26, 12, 19:21 #34
SeanBM: extreme This is one of my worries in all this, The troubles in the world economy, the erosion of freedoms, the 'Occupy' movement, the pointless wars in Iraq and one already this side of the horizon in Iran, the imminent collapse of the Euro, the end of American hegemony and the meteoric rise of China. Do they really have to do this ACTA thing right now?

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Jan 26, 12, 19:29 #35

JonnyM:

Do they really have to do this ACTA thing right now?

I actually think they are doing it now for the very reasons you have just pointed out.
How else could the occupy wallstreet movement have been organised without the internet? i don't think it could have and certainly the mainstream media ignored it for as long as possible. Wikileaks showing the gunning down of innocent people would also never have been shown to us.
This is control of the internet, it will come in a few guises, antipiracy, antiterrorism, antipedophilia rings but what it actually is is control of information.

Knowledge is power.

JonnyMThreads: 15 Posts: 4,160 Joined: Mar 9, 11 MEMBER ♂	Jan 26, 12, 19:38 #36
SeanBM: I actually think they are doing it now for the very reasons you have just pointed out. One of the oldest tricks in the book - Macchiavelli mentions it. Pile sh1te upon sh1te and people handle it better.

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Jan 26, 12, 19:45 #37

JonnyM:

Pile sh1te upon sh1te and people handle it better.

This is the reason people are protesting, it's masquerading as legit enforcment of the law but that's not it.
Anyone can buy a pirated film from any of the targs (markets) here in Poland and I see nothing done about that.
But controlling what you see on the internet, in the name of copyrights? nobody is swollowing that one, except P3.
2012 masquerading as 1984 (you can use that:)

GabiDaHunThreads: 1 Posts: 60 Joined: Jan 18, 12 ♀	Jan 26, 12, 20:01 #38
It's a hammer to crack an egg (You can use that one too!)

MEMBER ♂

Jan 26, 12, 20:28 #39

so let me get this straight, if the law come into affect its the ISP's responsibility to moniter what clients upload? How the hell are they going to enforce that...
.
Another thing, ive had friends that recieved nasty letters from ISP's Virgin and Sky for file sharing, but ive never heard of anybody getting a nasty letter from BT, point being BT dont give a toss if you download media as they have no vested interest in it.

The ISP's are not going to enforce a censored internet, its anti profit.

RoughFlavorsThreads: - Posts: 89 Joined: Jan 18, 12 ♀	Edited by: RoughFlavors Jan 26, 12, 21:52 #40
this may be relevant to watch

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Jan 26, 12, 22:23 #41

Do you people (and give a straight answerffor once) favour:
-- the flood of fake and counterfeit (mostly 'Made in China' but not exclusively)? products flooding the world market ?
-- composers, artists, film directors , actors and other creative people being deprived of their rightful royalties and effectviely have their intellectual property stolen?
-- having an 'anything goes' approach to the Internet where anonymous individuals can engage in libel with impunity (they couldn't get away with that on radio, TV or the press!) ,show how to construct bombs with household porducts, promtoe terrorism, run hate sites, glamourise incest, paedophilia and zoophilia as well as many other socially despicable activities?
-- turning hackers who jeopardise the national security of countries by disabling defence and other sensitive official sites hailed as heroes and saviours?

ACTA has admittedly not been publicly consulted and mayl contain various snags and loopholes. But the ratificaton process is an extended one and all the kinks should get ironed out eventually. If not, it will not be accepted by the EP or national parliaments, so why the big stink?!

milkyThreads: 10 Posts: 1,057 Joined: Oct 26, 09 ♀	Jan 26, 12, 22:24 #42
Is this the sh1t hitting the fan? is the honeymoon period, over. Big Brother on speed.

mauritius_2302Threads: 10 Posts: 30 Joined: Dec 4, 11 ♂	Jan 27, 12, 00:14 #43
So does it mean that these guys will track us country by country, home by home and one by one?? WTF! :/

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Jan 27, 12, 03:30 #44

Wroclaw Boy:

The ISP's are not going to enforce a censored internet

they won't have a choice if the treaty is signed

intellectual property is important, but nothing should be above free speech, civil liberties, or the right to privacy. net neutrality is one of the fundamental principles of the modern world. P3 is just overdramatizing and fear-mongering, given that laws against terrorism and pedophilia already exist, and no government should have to spy on their citizens, no matter how pretty the pipe dream of stopping all the hackers and terrorists sounds. if people like P3 don't understand that, they deserve to live in a police state.

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Edited by: antheads Jan 27, 12, 12:17 #45

There were thousands of protesters in lublin of all places, this is turning into a big issue and is getting world wide coverage. It's interesting that poles hold the freedoms of the internet so dear., perhaps because society is so conservative and also older people have not learnt to protest about bread and butter issues but with something as new as the internet the youth are leading the way. I am proud of poland and its youth in there enthusiastic desire to agitate for change and standing up to power. The upcoming protest in warsaw this weekend should be huge!

hythornThreads: 6 Posts: 847 Joined: Feb 21, 08 ♂	Jan 27, 12, 12:20 #46
antheads: older people have not learnt to protest about bread and butter issues you don't feel that the Poles being instrumental in the fall of communism through their protests in the 1980s counted for anything then?

antheadsThreads: 13 Posts: 307 Joined: Jan 21, 11 ♂	Edited by: antheads Jan 27, 12, 12:22 #47
sorry i meant after the fall of communism , people just sort of accepted the laisre faire american model. I was talking about contempory issues like the iraq war, corrupiton and health care etc I guess this is a natural process after fighting so long to get rid of communism.

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Jan 27, 12, 13:18 #48

antheads:

sorry i meant after the fall of communism

thanks for the clarification

a Polish friend of mine went on some pro anarchy marches in Poland and felt that the Poles were extremely well behaved
and met quite a few non-Polish political agitators who were most distressed by the lack of mayhem being caused

I feel that Polish people are very pragmatic but mildly apathetic at the same time. the whole concept of protesting just for the sake of protesting
is quite alien for them

RubasznyRumcajsThreads: 9 Posts: 281 Joined: Mar 29, 08 ♂	Edited by: RubasznyRumcajs Jan 27, 12, 13:30 #49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g32zLT2nJxo#! ... and than people wonder: "why everyone hates America?"...

GabiDaHunThreads: 1 Posts: 60 Joined: Jan 18, 12 ♀	Jan 27, 12, 13:45 #50
RubasznyRumcajs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g32zLT2nJxo#! ... and than people wonder: "why everyone hates America?"... Could you explain the gist of this video? My Polish is rather poor.

ReservoirDogThreads: - Posts: 125 Joined: Nov 22, 11 ♀	Edited by: ReservoirDog Jan 27, 12, 13:51 #51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=g32zLT2nJxo#! comments are great ;) "It's better to be enemies with Russia, than friends of USA" hehehe.. there is sth about ACTA on wikileaks also. News: french MEP Kader Arif worked on a ACTA report, now he resignes. He said "This is a masquerade"

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Jan 27, 12, 14:13 #52

GabiDaHun:

Could you explain the gist of this video? My Polish is rather poor.

basically- our "friends" from USA were showing "a bit to much" inquisitiveness about a voting about an article that doesn't support ACTA. Polish "Commission of Innovation and New Technologies" (Komisja Innowacyjności i Nowych Technologii) accepted desideratum calling Tusk to hold his acceptance for ACTA. Despite the absence of 3 senators (poseł- i have no idea how to translate it into English, if senator isn't a proper translation), commission accepted it (by 8 for yes, 3 for no, 4 hold their votes). At 11 AM, they received a call from US embassy with question about rightness of their decision.
Well. next time maybe they will just send the ambassador to sit there to make sure that their decision will be "the proper one".

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Edited by: antheads Jan 27, 12, 14:46 #53

Wow the dude from PO basically told the US to butt out, that poland and the US are sopoused to partners, this is an internal matter and the US should act more appropriately.

I feel that Polish people are very pragmatic but mildly apathetic at the same time. the whole concept of protesting just for the sake of protesting
is quite alien for them

Spot on but it seems that the winds of change are too blowing over poland i again, this apathy is not shared by the youth who are in their early 20s and under, However the late 20s generation are very materialistic and don't really care about politics or social change. Generaliastions i know but they mostly hold true.

Polonius3Threads: 975 Posts: 4,617 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Jan 27, 12, 15:43 #54
Poseł = deputy or MP (member of parliament)

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Jan 27, 12, 16:22 #55

the effects are taking a while to take effect

one thing immediately noticeable is that Youtube is now longer showing full length feature films

however full length documentaries do not appear to have been effected

bear in mind that if the law kicks in, you ISP will be forced by law to grass you up the moment
you download torrents

this weekend will be interesting to see what the public reaction will be in Poland

MEMBER ♂

Jan 27, 12, 16:31 #56

antheads:

Wow the dude from PO basically told the US to butt out, that poland and the US are sopoused to partners, this is an internal matter and the US should act more appropriately.

Ohh the US is interested in this alright, Poland was the perfect country to experiment with, nothing like a nation that is used to being shafted throughout the past 80 years to try and pull a fast one over.

Sneaky bastads.

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Jan 27, 12, 16:51 #57

Wroclaw Boy:

Poland was the perfect country to experiment with, nothing like a nation that is used to being shafted throughout the past 80 years to try and pull a fast one over.

so you are saying that the US picks the country that gave the Nazis more trouble than any other country in Europe (with the exception of Yugoslavia but they had the benefit of mountainous terrain) and who more or less brought down communism to use as a patsy to test a piece of controversial legislation?

erm ok... might it not have been wiser to try this in ultra conservative Austria, or perhaps Switzerland or maybe the Czech Republic?

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Wroclaw Boy Jan 27, 12, 17:15 #58

hythorn:

so you are saying that the US picks the country that gave the Nazis more trouble than any other country in Europe (with the exception of Yugoslavia but they had the benefit of mountainous terrain) and who more or less brought down communism to use as a patsy to test a piece of controversial legislation?

Something like that yes.

How silly do you feel after all that crap you were spewing on my other related thread recently?

I raised the issue and you basically said it will never happen, a few days later and we have YOU writing this:

hythorn:

the effects are taking a while to take effect

one thing immediately noticeable is that Youtube is now longer showing full length feature films

however full length documentaries do not appear to have been effected

bear in mind that if the law kicks in, you ISP will be forced by law to grass you up the moment
you download torrents

hythorn:

erm ok... might it not have been wiser to try this in ultra conservative Austria, or perhaps Switzerland or maybe the Czech Republic?

That all depends if they're officials can be bribed as easily.

hythornThreads: 6 Posts: 847 Joined: Feb 21, 08 ♂	Jan 27, 12, 17:33 #59
Wroclaw Boy: How silly do you feel after all that crap you were spewing on my other related thread recently? I do not feel that silly really I believe that this bill will be defeated by the weight of public opinion against it moderate your tone, there's a good lad

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 56 Posts: 5,320 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER ♂	Jan 27, 12, 17:39 #60
hythorn: moderate your tone, there's a good lad Moderate yourself mate and whilst your at it turn up the intelligence level a couple of notches - if at all possible. You started this with your sarcasm so don't go crying the victim, be nice to me i'll be nice right back.

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