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Poland rejects Russia's findings over plane crash


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PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Dec 19, 10, 19:19    #1
I can't believe that Tusk actually had the guts to criticize Russia for once.



SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Dec 19, 10, 19:25    #2
He doesnt, he was ordered to.
smurfThreads: 46
Posts: 660
Joined: Sep 8, 09 ♂ 		 Dec 19, 10, 19:37    #3
What's the problem?
Captain's fault, case closed surely
sobieskiThreads: 82
Posts: 1,143
Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂ 		 Dec 19, 10, 19:38    #4
Yawn...again Smolensk. Will it ever stop?
By the way, who "forced" the Prime Minister?
aphrodisiacThreads: 22
Posts: 3,998
Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀ 		 Dec 19, 10, 19:42    #5
PennBoy:
I can't believe that Tusk actually had the guts to criticize Russia for once.

I was actually surprised.
Sokrates:
He doesnt, he was ordered to.

paranoid as always.
smurf:
Captain's fault, case closed surely

It sure was NOT the Russian's fault alone.
sobieski:
Yawn...again Smolensk. Will it ever stop?

I agree. It is getting boring.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Dec 19, 10, 19:46    #6
sobieski:
Yawn...again Smolensk. Will it ever stop?

Well Russians should know Poles are hardheaded and wont quit until we'll know the truth. The Captain may have tired to land but the Russians made it as difficult for him as possible.
smurfThreads: 46
Posts: 660
Joined: Sep 8, 09 ♂ 		 Dec 19, 10, 19:47    #7
aphrodisiac:
It sure was NOT the Russian's fault alone.

sure it wasn't the ruskies fault at all, in fact, they told the capt. not to land, but he chose to ignore them and crashed the plane.
I don't see why Tusk has a problem
sobieskiThreads: 82
Posts: 1,143
Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: sobieski  Dec 19, 10, 19:51    #8
PennBoy:
Well Russians should know Poles are hardheaded and wont quit until we'll know the truth.

The PIS circus for sure will do that.
I am at a loss why Tusk made this move.
The good thing of course is that almost nobody anymore takes notice. PIS has milked it for all what it is worth. Even to the extent of having cold lech digged up (or airing the idea).
Which truth by the way? The plane shot down by Putin, or attacked by nazi flying saucers?
aphrodisiacThreads: 22
Posts: 3,998
Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀ 		 Dec 19, 10, 19:57    #9
smurf:
sure it wasn't the ruskies fault at all, in fact, they told the capt. not to land, but he chose to ignore them and crashed the plane.

absolutely.

However some Poles don't want to admit that the pilot was solely responsible,which is such a typical Polish attitude.
smurfThreads: 46
Posts: 660
Joined: Sep 8, 09 ♂ 		 Dec 19, 10, 19:58    #10
PennBoy:
The Captain may have tired to land but the Russians made it as difficult for him as possible

you didn't read the transcript of the blackbox then did you?
dude, the ruskies told the capt not to land
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: PennBoy  Dec 19, 10, 20:06    #11
smurf:
you didn't read the transcript of the blackbox then did you?
dude, the ruskies told the capt not to land

HAHA no s**t, because they knew the conversation would be recorded on the black boxes. They gave the impression of wanting to do good, it was all planned. Adding smoke to the existing cloud cover, changing bulbs in the runway lights, traffic controlers acting like they can't understand the pilots Russian. This is Putins Russia it's all possible.




delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Dec 19, 10, 20:18    #12
PennBoy:
I can't believe that Tusk actually had the guts to criticize Russia for once.


He's a Polish patriot, unlike many of the people who criticise him. I've said all along that the investigators would do the right thing - and they have.

PennBoy:
Well Russians should know Poles are hardheaded and wont quit until we'll know the truth. The Captain may have tired to land but the Russians made it as difficult for him as possible.


What do you know about aviation? Nothing? Now shut up. There was no automated landing systems at Smolensk - attempting a landing in such conditions was suicidal. End of story.

sobieski:
I am at a loss why Tusk made this move.


That's quite simple - the Polish investigators think the Russian report is rubbish. Tusk, as head of the Government has to announce this.

PennBoy:
HAHA no s**t, because they knew the conversation would be recorded on the black boxes. They gave the impression of wanting to do good, it was all planned. Adding smoke to the existing cloud cover, changing bulbs in the runway lights, traffic controlers acting like they can't understand the pilots Russian. This is Putins Russia it's all possible.


Where's the evidence of the bulb changing? Random pictures of some guys changing bulbs somewhere isn't "proof".

Now, when you're told by an airport "conditions for landing : none" - why would you even attempt a landing?
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Dec 19, 10, 20:23    #13
delphiandomine:
What do you know about aviation? Nothing? Now shut up

Shut up you little bi**h. The president told him to land so he tried. And what do you know about aviation? except what you read on the web, you know even know Poland's history everything you're posted on this forums is bs.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: delphiandomine  Dec 19, 10, 20:27    #14
PennBoy:
Shut up you little bi**h. The president told him to land so he tried. And what do you know about aviation? except what you read on the web, you know even know Poland's history everything you're posted on this forums is bs.


Where's the evidence that Lech told him to try and land? Last time I checked, the Polish investigators hadn't found any evidence of this. In fact, how dare you suggest (as a Plastic Polack) that Lech told him to land! I mean, you're enough of a traitor without insulting the memory of the dead Polish President!
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,432
Joined: May 28, 09 ♀ 		 Dec 19, 10, 20:31    #15
Well, at any rate, sounds like the airport needs an overhaul with safety devices to aid pilots landing in tricky weather regardless of whose fault the accident was.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: PennBoy  Dec 19, 10, 20:35    #16
delphiandomine:
Where's the evidence that Lech told him to try and land? Last time I checked, the Polish investigators hadn't found any evidence of this.

The pilot an experienced pilot would never risk his and all those people's lives, if anyone told him to land it was probably Lech, not because of incompetence just wasn't afraid to take the risk.

delphiandomine:
(as a Plastic Polack)

delphiandomine:
you're enough of a traitor without insulting the memory of the dead Polish President!

Listen Limey, i'm not the one pretending to be something i'm not. First you talk bs about Poland now you change sides running around from one to the next.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: delphiandomine  Dec 19, 10, 20:49    #17
PlasticPole:
Well, at any rate, sounds like the airport needs an overhaul with safety devices to aid pilots landing in tricky weather regardless of whose fault the accident was.


The problem is that Smolensk-North was decommissioned as a military airport at the end of last year. There's very little civilian traffic there - so there's no need for the airport to actually have any sort of landing assistance equipment. In fact, it's better to think of it as "a long, thin piece of concrete in the ground" as opposed to an actual airport.

If you ask me, questions should be asked as to why the President was allowed to fly into Smolensk-North in the first place. It certainly wasn't well equipped for any sort of problems that might occur. The Tupolev was in great condition and was well equipped, but not for landing at an airport "blind" in dreadful weather conditions due to the lack of an ILS (or equal) at Smolensk-North.

PennBoy:
The pilot an experienced pilot would never risk his and all those people's lives, if anyone told him to land it was probably Lech, not because of incompetence just wasn't afraid to take the risk.


No-one told him to land. Is it that hard to get into your head?

You do realise (well, you probably don't) that experienced pilots make mistakes?

PennBoy:
Listen Limey, i'm not the one pretending to be something i'm not. First you talk bs about Poland now you change sides running around from one to the next.


Nah mate, you're the one who has sworn allegiance to a foreign power while pretending to be loyal to Poland.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,432
Joined: May 28, 09 ♀ 		 Dec 19, 10, 20:54    #18
delphiandomine:


If you ask me, questions should be asked as to why the President was allowed to fly into Smolensk-North in the first place.

That is suspicious. Why would they allow him to land in such a place unless he was planning to land before the weather got too bad and was caught by surprise?
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: PennBoy  Dec 19, 10, 20:54    #19
delphiandomine:
The problem is that Smolensk-North was decommissioned as a military airport at the end of last year.

Oh yea i didn't know that.

delphiandomine:
No-one told him to land. Is it that hard to get into your head?

You do realise (well, you probably don't) that experienced pilots make mistakes?

simple mistakes not like this one, it was obvious not to land on a small military airport in the middle of a heavily wooded area with heavy fog.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Dec 19, 10, 21:04    #20
PennBoy:
Oh yea i didn't know that.


It's best to think of Smolensk-North as a piece of concrete in the middle of the forest. It's still a matter of some debate as to what was actually installed there, but to all practical purposes, the airfield was just some concrete.

Really, really not the kind of place that the plane should have been landing at.

PennBoy:
simple mistakes not like this one, it was obvious not to land on a small military airport in the middle of a heavily wooded area with heavy fog.


Very obvious - and this is where the pilot made the mistake. There's even a point that they may not have been in possession of the correct approach charts - which makes it even more a reason that they should never have bothered to attempt the landing - or if they did attempt it, then they should have "flown away" at a much higher height.
enderThreads: 13
Posts: 528
Joined: Nov 7, 09 ♂ 		 Dec 19, 10, 22:01    #21
delphiandomine:
It's best to think of Smolensk-North as a piece of concrete

It's best to think of delphiandomine as a piece of concrete and nothing more.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Dec 19, 10, 22:10    #22
ender:
It's best to think of delphiandomine as a piece of concrete and nothing more.


More wise words from aviation experts, I see.
VelundThreads: 1
Posts: 417
Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: Velund  Dec 21, 10, 01:26    #23
PlasticPole:
Well, at any rate, sounds like the airport needs an overhaul


Looks like airport is not the first thing Smolensk may need. Once I written about it here.

Most passengers would use it to get to nearest hub (Moscow) to connect with some other flight. And this destination is covered very good by railroad. There is about 20 trains to Moscow every day, 1 to 3 direct and a lot of passing trains (from Berlin, Warsaw, Prague, Vilnius, Minsk, Brest, Gomel, Polotsk etc...)

With all modern security measures and road to airport it will not take less than 4-4.5 hours to get to one of three Moscow airports by plane. If weather permit. Add (roughly) additional hour to get from airport to city centre by airport express train.

Railroad will deliver you from (almost) the center of Smolensk to (almost) center of Moscow in about 6 hours, absolutely predictable, day or night. And cheaper.

So, plane _may_ win you a hour or so only if your connecting flight is from same airport and schedule allow reasonable time for connection. But if you come to DME and need to continue from SVO or VKO - you'll probably lose some time compared to railroad way.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Dec 21, 10, 01:38    #24
Velund:
So, plane _may_ win you a hour or so only if your connecting flight is from same airport and schedule allow reasonable time for connection. But if you come to DME and need to continue from SVO or VKO - you'll probably lose some time compared to railroad way.


It is odd though that Smolensk doesn't have a civilian airport with links to Moscow - you'd think that while it might not be much use for point-to-point flights, a city the size of Smolensk would have a reasonable amount of traffic transiting through Moscow.

But then, I guess Smolensk-South doesn't have a long enough runway, and there's no infrastructure in place at Smolensk-North.
VelundThreads: 1
Posts: 417
Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂ 		 Dec 21, 10, 01:58    #25
delphiandomine:
a city the size of Smolensk would have a reasonable amount of traffic transiting through Moscow.


Yes, there is... Every time I returning from Vilnius by train, quite a lot of people boarding that train in Smolensk (at 3 am) to get to Moscow just before 9 am. I think at daytime there is even more passengers..

delphiandomine:
But then, I guess Smolensk-South doesn't have a long enough runway, and there's no infrastructure in place at Smolensk-North.


Yes. Someone will need to invest a lot in construction and modern equipment just to be able to offer service that is already offered, usually much more than demanded (passing trains with a lot of unoccupied places will not disappear anyway).
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Dec 21, 10, 13:26    #26
Why did Tusk, Rzepa and Szeremet u-turn? They were fine with the findings right the way along the line and now they find a discrepancy or lack of info. In the interests of international cooperation/relations, collaboration would likely have been close at all times. What stunt are they trying to pull here? It could be that Obama is stirring things up too as a friendly Russia diminishes America's role.
CrowThreads: 367
Posts: 7,316
Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Dec 22, 10, 17:07    #27
Poland rejects Russia's findings over plane crash

Why? That`s ridiculous

Poland can`t expect that Russia accuse USA or EU for assassination of Polish president
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Dec 22, 10, 17:12    #28
ender:
It's best to think of delphiandomine as a piece of concrete and nothing more.

ROTFL
Crow:
Poland can`t expect that Russia accuse USA or EU for assassination of Polish president

Crow i know you wanna be fair to Russia but you can't always be see blindly one sided with them this used to be the evil empire remember LOL
NathanThreads: 33
Posts: 1,846
Joined: Feb 13, 09 ♂ 		 Dec 22, 10, 18:22    #29
Crow:
Why? That`s ridiculous
Poland can`t expect that Russia accuse USA or EU for assassination of Polish president

Is this the only way to accuse someone - based on whether they are from US or EU? Ridiculous is the way how you accuse Germany about Kosovo, Crow. It is really ridiculous.
Don't you wonder why these findings were made by Russian Federation, not by Poland? Imagine if the US president crashed in Smolensk. Would they be satisfied with what some Russian official investigation report says or would they run the investigation themselves?
I just recently have seen a program about a guy with French and US citizenships who was killed in an apartment in California (they are still not sure about whether it was suicide or homicide) and after the US police came to consider it a suicide, the parents of the guy and his gf requested the French investigators to come over and take the case. The French detectives ran a thorough investigation in foreigh country with no obstacles whatsoever. In case of Kaczynski we are talking about a representative of a whole country and RF prevents normal investigative procedures by refusing or delaying to impossibility all the evidence from the crash.
PennBoy:
Crow i know you wanna be fair to Russia

Fair means just, but his statements seem rather boot-licking.
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂ 		 Dec 22, 10, 18:48    #30
Seanus:
Why did Tusk, Rzepa and Szeremet u-turn?


It's called 'diplomacy'. You say nice things in the beginning so that when you do criticize your criticism carries more weight because you seem reasonable.

A non-stop flow of criticism and crazy accusations just make it easy for the other side to tune you out and/or make you look foolish.

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