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Poland A and Ukraine B. Compare how far Poland has advanced.

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May 3, 11, 00:30 #1

The fastest way to appreciate just how far Poland has advanced in the last two decades is to make a quick trip to neighbouring Ukraine. The visual evidence is overwhelming.

After waiting for more than two hours to cross into Ukraine at the Hrebenne-Rava Ruska crossing, the first impression one gets of Ukraine is based on the truly enormous potholes on the main road from the border to Lviv, the capital of western Ukraine and one of four Ukrainian cities where matches will be held during next year’s European football championship. Cars and trucks crawl along, circling axle-breaking holes.

In Lviv, many of the city’s streets are a barely-drivable cobblestone that looks to have last been fixed before the war, while ambitious urban transit plans for the tournament look far from ready.

East of Lviv, the sight of a horse-drawn cart draws barely a glance, and fields are dotted with farmers walking behind horse-drawn ploughs– views that used to be ubiquitous in Poland but are now a rarity – even in the country’s poorest areas.

http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2011/05/02/poland-and-ukraine-miles-t o-go/

So why is it a sucha big difference between these two countries? Both have been "free" since the ealy 90's.

Why didnt Ukraine follow Poland and the rest of the ex-communist countries after the fall of the Iron Curtain‎?

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	May 3, 11, 00:37 #2
David_18: http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2011/05/02/poland-and-ukraine-m iles-t o-go/ Nice article

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Edited by: pawian May 3, 11, 00:42 #3

David_18:

The visual evidence is overwhelming.

It is understandable. Polish GDP per capita is about 18.000$ while Ukrainian 8000$.

David_18:

So why is it a sucha big difference between these two countries? Both have been "free" since the ealy 90's.

Polish elites from Solidarity, joined by retreating communists, were more determined in reforming the country.

Besides, Poles are probably the most enterprenual nation in this part of Europe.

Look at those ugly advertisements near Warsaw - it looks as if their motto was: Give me a road and a plot so that I can start a business.

♂

May 3, 11, 01:05 #4

David_18:

So why is it a sucha big difference between these two countries? Both have been "free" since the ealy 90's.

Why didnt Ukraine follow Poland and the rest of the ex-communist countries after the fall of the Iron Curtain‎?

Very simple answer Davey, Poland borders Germany and the Ukraine borders Russia and has access to the black sea. Russia would never allow the EU to grow to its border, furthermore they did everything possible to stop Ukraine joining Nato, some even alledged they tried to kill the Ukrainian President at the time.

rybnikThreads: 29 Posts: 1,232 Joined: Jan 16, 11 ♂	May 3, 11, 01:11 #5
David_18: Why didnt Ukraine follow Poland and the rest of the ex-communist countries after the fall of the Iron Curtain‎? What's the consensus? Will Ukraine make it in time for the champioships?

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	May 3, 11, 01:17 #6
rybnik: Will Ukraine make it in time for the champioships? will wroclaw ?

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	May 3, 11, 01:19 #7
pawian: Look at those ugly advertisements near Warsaw - it looks as if their motto was: Give me a road and a plot so that I can start a business. A Thatcherite nightmare.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	May 3, 11, 01:20 #8
JonnyM: A Thatcherite nightmare. ???

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	May 3, 11, 01:23 #9
pawian: ??? Everyone selling something, everything for sale at a price, unrelentless advertising.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	May 3, 11, 01:26 #10
JonnyM: Everyone selling something, everything for sale at a price, unrelentless advertising. It is not only selling, also producing, if you don`t mind. Besides, I don`t think it is so bad. Poles have always done that.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	May 3, 11, 01:28 #11
pawian: It is not only selling, also producing, if you don`t mind. Besides, I don`t think it is so bad. Poles have always done that. It helps the economy and provides work, especially for the signwriters and billboard makers, but are those dreaful placards really effective?

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,388 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	May 3, 11, 01:34 #12
pawian: Look at those ugly advertisements near Warsaw - it looks as if their motto was: Give me a road and a plot so that I can start a business. Those pictures look like they are taken in Pruszków, just on the borders of Warsaw, the area is very industrialized, also it is considered one of the poorer areas of Warsaw.

♂

May 3, 11, 03:52 #13

David_18:

So why is it a sucha big difference between these two countries? Both have been "free" since the ealy 90's.
Why didnt Ukraine follow Poland and the rest of the ex-communist countries after the fall of the Iron Curtain‎?

Great question.
There is a sequence of factors which resulted in slow economical development of Ukraine nowadays:
Ukraine was occupied by Russia and Poland since 1667. Revolts of 1648-54 and 1768 were brutaly suppressed by the two. When finally the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empire collapsed and Ukraine declared its independance Polish and Russian armies again ravaged the country and tore it apart: Poland occupied its western part, Russia - eastern. Both made sure the word "Ukrainian" and "education" or "political activity" don't mix together. Poland closed Ukrainian schools, burnt Churches, openned concentration camp for Ukrainian nationalists. The Russians under Stalin murdered 6 million Ukrainians by Holodomor and executed thousands during forced collectivization in 1928-1931. Came the WWII. Ukraine lost 7.5 million people (3 million soldiers). The rest one can say both Poland and Ukraine followed the same path, except: Poland was not part of the USSR, had its own currency, borrowed huge amounts of money from the West, had Polish as official language, haven't had people singing songs, writing scientific works in native language called nationalists and incarcerated. I remember watching Polish TV caught by the ladder-like antenna as something foreign and with more interesting things than 3-channel Soviet BS with its on and on glorification of a "big brother".
One might say Ok, Nathan, you whiny d*ck, you had 20 years, for Christ sake! Look at Poland! I saw Poland and I am amazed. Your roads, economy and other stuff is uncomparably better. In Ukraine a lot changed from what it was in 1991, a lot remained unchanged. The historical background I've shown made something that still tortures the country: those millions Ukrainians who died in Holodomor and during the war were replaced with Russian citizens who after independance were, unfortunately, given Ukrainian passports. Now, those are part of the fifth column, which does everything and I mean EVERYTHING possible to undermine the country. They don't care to compare the European and Russian lifestyle. They'll die to live like pigs as long as a pigsty is named in Russian. Quite literaly. They constantly have problems with the flag, with the anthem, with the past. Officially, there around 18% Russians having Ukrainian passports and despising the country where those as*holes were born in. But when told to get the fcuk off from here, they go into obscenities I even don't want to repeat. Another part of the society are Ukrainians who were Russified to the point they lost their roots to the point that they are neither Ukrainians, nor Russians. They are mankurts, homo sovieticus which still live in their minds in the SU.
Another huge problem is corruption. This eats away the reconstruction of roads, infrastructure development, health, wages, spendings of regular people. It is heart-breaking. What can I say?!
So, all this time the fight goes not for the sake of the developing Ukraine as a European economic entity, but to find the common language while the politicians use the situation to steal the budget and spit in the face of both.
It will take more years for that to change. Euro2012 will have a huge impact on the country. A bit over the half of the population made already their choice for the West, but it is now for time and economical recovery to wake up the rest for the real progress to start.

hague1cmaeronThreads: 21 Posts: 1,652 Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂	May 3, 11, 03:59 #14
It is because unlike the Poles the Ukrainians have always invested a lot of trust in mother Russia; many consider themselves little Russians and have a lot of cultural similarities. The Ukrainians have always viewed the Russians more as their kith and Kin than they ever did the Poles (despite the starvations).

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May 3, 11, 04:42 #15

hague1cmaeron:

It is because unlike the Poles the Ukrainians have always invested a lot of trust in mother Russia; many consider themselves little Russians and have a lot of cultural similarities. The Ukrainians have always viewed the Russians more as their kith and Kin than they ever did the Poles (despite the starvations).

Maybe Kiev yes, but others parts of the ukraine - no - . It has got nothing to do about trust, Russia has created a better vision for Ukraine than the west and managed to pay off the decision makers. Its as simple as that.

Sorry hague1cmaeron, no other ,loyalty than money.

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May 3, 11, 05:09 #16

Nathan:

Now, those are part of the fifth column, which does everything and I mean EVERYTHING possible to undermine the country. They don't care to compare the European and Russian lifestyle. They'll die to live like pigs as long as a pigsty is named in Russian. Quite literaly. They constantly have problems with the flag, with the anthem, with the past. Officially, there around 18% Russians having Ukrainian passports and despising the country where those as*holes were born in. But when told to get the fcuk off from here, they go into obscenities I even don't want to repeat. Another part of the society are Ukrainians who were Russified to the point they lost their roots to the point that they are neither Ukrainians, nor Russians. They are mankurts, homo sovieticus which still live in their minds in the SU.

Nathan, very eloquently stated. I, as an uninformed Yank, get it. Thank you.

♀

Edited by: hubabuba May 3, 11, 06:15 #17

David_18:

Why didnt Ukraine follow Poland and the rest of the ex-communist countries after the fall of the Iron Curtain‎?

I think it is not advisable to compare Poland to Ukraine because no matter how it looked Poland was Poland with its own "elites", while Ukraine was just a part of USSR, it was much harder for them to transform. Besides dont You see a pattern? the same happens with Belarus, they just cant decide what side to be on. Young countries-they will manage to sort it out sooner or later

Ukraine was occupied by Russia and Poland since 1667. Revolts of 1648-54 and 1768 were brutaly suppressed by the two. When finally the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empire collapsed and Ukraine declared its independance Polish and Russian armies again ravaged the country and tore it apart: Poland occupied its western part, Russia - eastern. Both made sure the word "Ukrainian" and "education" or "political activity" don't mix together. Poland closed Ukrainian schools, burnt Churches, openned concentration camp for Ukrainian nationalists. The Russians under Stalin murdered 6 million Ukrainians by Holodomor and executed thousands during forced collectivization in 1928-1931. Came the WWII. Ukraine lost 7.5 million people (3 million soldiers).
Ukraine was occupied by Russia and Poland since 1667. Revolts of 1648-54 and 1768 were brutaly suppressed by the two. When finally the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empire collapsed and Ukraine declared its independance Polish and Russian armies again ravaged the country and tore it apart: Poland occupied its western part, Russia - eastern. Both made sure the word "Ukrainian" and "education" or "political activity" don't mix together. Poland closed Ukrainian schools, burnt Churches, openned concentration camp for Ukrainian nationalists. The Russians under Stalin murdered 6 million Ukrainians by Holodomor and executed thousands during forced collectivization in 1928-1931. Came the WWII. Ukraine lost 7.5 million people (3 million soldiers).

hubabuba:

kraine was occupied by Russia and Poland since 1667. Revolts of 1648-54 and 1768 were brutaly suppressed by the two. When finally the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empire collapsed and Ukraine declared its independance Polish and Russian armies again ravaged the country and tore it apart: Poland occupied its western part, Russia - eastern. Both made sure the word "Ukrainian" and "education" or "political activity" don't mix together. Poland closed Ukrainian schools, burnt Churches, openned concentration camp for Ukrainian nationalists. The Russians under Stalin murdered 6 million Ukrainians by Holodomor and executed thousands during forced collectivization in 1928-1931. Came the WWII. Ukraine lost 7.5 million people (3 million soldiers). The rest one can say both Poland and Ukraine followed the same path,

Your history teacher should be ashamed of himself!!

MEMBER ♂

May 3, 11, 07:04 #18

pawian:

It is understandable. Polish GDP per capita is about 18.000$ while Ukrainian 8000$.

I don't want to be meticulous, but the correct GDP per capita figures would seem to be $ 18800 for Poland
(slightly lower than Hungarian GDP per capita) and $ 6700 for Ukraine (slightly lower than Namibian and
considerably lower than Albanian), and that is the reason of the differences which David_18 mentioned.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/ 2004rank.html?countryName=Ukraine&countryCode=up&regionCode=eu&rank=13 3#up

Of course, the figures are from 2010, so this year Poland may switch places with Hungary and Ukraine
has a fair chance of getting slighlty richer than our African friends from Namibia (Albania... maybe not
just yet, but in 10-15 years time - who knows?)

♂

May 3, 11, 07:24 #19

Here is my explanation:

1)Poland is more united as a country (although not greatly).
West Ukrainian has mostly Ukrainians speaking and they are more patriotic to the nation of Ukraine.
East Ukrainian has mostly Russian speaking people. Many of which want to rejoin with Russia.

2)Ukrainian is further east away from the heart of europe (central europe).

3)Definitely the Holodomar played influence. I think its sad that every american knows what the Holocaust is (through american/zionist media propaganda) while very little people in the western world know what the Holodomar is.
Here in Canada they had memorals for holocaust victims. There is 1,000,000 Polish people here and 400,000 Jewish people. The whole memorials didnt say a world about Polish victims.
All they did was mentioned 6 million Jewish deaths without counting millions of others.
Sadly slavic people (Russian, Polish, Ukrainian) people are still sometimes looked down on in the US and Canada. The guys in charge are 1)WASP 2)Jewish and sometimes 3) German, slavics are 'lesser'.

♂

Edited by: pawian May 3, 11, 07:45 #20

Torq:

Ooops, I didn`t know they fell down even more, in 2008 it was 7500$.

That is really so low, how do they manage on that? I can`t imagine.....

Nathan:

Ukraine was occupied by Russia and Poland since 1667. Revolts of 1648-54 and 1768 were brutaly suppressed by the two. When finally the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empire collapsed and Ukraine declared its independance Polish and Russian armies again ravaged the country and tore it apart: Poland occupied its western part, Russia - eastern. Both made sure the word "Ukrainian" and "education" or "political activity" don't mix together. Poland closed Ukrainian schools, burnt Churches, openned concentration camp for Ukrainian nationalists. The Russians under Stalin murdered 6 million Ukrainians by Holodomor and executed thousands during forced collectivization in 1928-1931. Came the WWII. Ukraine lost 7.5 million people (3 million soldiers).

More or less the same can be said about Poland, as you said:

Nathan:

both Poland and Ukraine followed the same path,

It is hard to find reliable data but I think when WW2 finished, Poland and Ukraine started from the same level. We were probably roughly equal when freedom came in 1989, too. The 1980 Almanac which I still keep provides this data: Poland GPD pc - 3000$ . Soviet Union - 4000$.

So, in my opinion it was the last 20 years which proved crucial to make such a difference between two countries. How?

Maybe this is the explanation

Nathan:

The historical background I've shown made something that still tortures the country: those millions Ukrainians who died in Holodomor and during the war were replaced with Russian citizens who after independance were, unfortunately, given Ukrainian passports.

or this

Nathan:

Another part of the society are Ukrainians who were Russified to the point they lost their roots to the point that they are neither Ukrainians, nor Russians. They are mankurts, homo sovieticus which still live in their minds in the SU.

Homo Sovieticus is a key word here. What are the main characteristics of HS?

Indifference to the results of his labour (as expressed in the saying "They pretend they are paying us, and we pretend we are working"), and lack of initiative.
Isolation from world culture, created by the Soviet Union's restrictions on travel abroad and strict censorship of information in the media (as well as the abundance of propaganda). The intent was to insulate the Soviet people from Western influence;
Obedience or passive acceptance of everything that government imposes on them.
Avoidance of taking any individual responsibility on anything.

There were and still are many people like that in Poland, but the majority of Polish society luckily avoided becoming HS.

♂

Edited by: pawian May 3, 11, 07:59 #21

JonnyM:

It helps the economy and provides work, especially for the signwriters and billboard makers, but are those dreaful placards really effective?

Yes, when you look for a business address to make a deal with them, and you don`t have a GPS, you will find it more easily studying the hoardings. :):):)

warszawski:

Those pictures look like they are taken in Pruszków, just on the borders of Warsaw, the area is very industrialized, also it is considered one of the poorer areas of Warsaw.

Guys, it doesn`t matter where the photos were taken, in a poor or rich area. I can show you tens of pictures like that from all parts of Poland.

What matters here is this:

Last summer, I was invited to speak at the Economic Forum in Krynica, a resort town in Southern Poland. I was amazed at the level of economic activity and civic spirit that was on display throughout the country. I also was fairly surprised that my economic views, which are routinely ridiculed at home, have much wider support among the Polish economic officials who presented at the conference.
[...]

Anecdotally, I can attest that these people are hungry for free markets. My visit to Krynica was a breath of fresh air, and a startling reminder of how far America has strayed. If the Polish people can hold onto the traumatic lessons of communism, and continue undeterred down their current path, then this battleground of the 20th century may be the paragon of the 21st.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	May 3, 11, 08:56 #22
Ukraine cannot be compared to Poland.Very different economies.Ukraina mainly sells its production to Russia and gets subsidized gas and oil while Poland sells to the West.Poland has had significantly higher unemployment(before the exodus) because it had to compete against the western products.

MaaarysiaThreads: 3 Posts: 541 Joined: Feb 27, 10 ♀	May 3, 11, 09:05 #23
pawian: What matters here is this: whose note is this?

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian May 3, 11, 09:06 #24
southern: Ukraina mainly sells its production to Russia and gets subsidized gas and oil while Poland sells to the West. What do you think - is it the reason or result of difference? Maaarysia: whose note is this? I cant tell you in the public. You need to open your PM box for a while. :):):)

PalivecThreads: - Posts: 333 Joined: Apr 22, 11 ♂	May 3, 11, 09:16 #25
pawian: Look at those ugly advertisements near Warsaw - it looks as if their motto was: Give me a road and a plot so that I can start a business. These advertisements all over Poland are horrible. The whole country looks like a huge bazaar. A free economony is nice, but some rules are needed.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	May 3, 11, 09:29 #26
Palivec: These advertisements all over Poland are horrible. The whole country looks like a huge bazaar. A free economony is nice, but some rules are needed. I prefer ugly advertisements and energetic enterprenual nation to clean roads and homo sovieticus people around.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 3, 11, 11:21 #27
David_18: Why didnt Ukraine follow Poland and the rest of the ex-communist countries after the fall of the Iron Curtain‎? Billions of EU funds and western investments? Where would Poland be today without the EU....

♂ [Suspended]

Edited by: delphiandomine May 3, 11, 11:39 #28

Bratwurst Boy:

Where would Poland be today without the EU....

A hell of a lot poorer.

Even today - look at who paid to reconstruct the "oderbrucke" railway bridge in Frankfurt/Swiecko. Not even EU money, but German money.

pawian:

Guys, it doesn`t matter where the photos were taken, in a poor or rich area. I can show you tens of pictures like that from all parts of Poland.

Indeed. You can even see them in some of the richest gminas around - anyone who drives from Poznan north will know exactly what I'm talking about.

Apparently legislation is on its way to allow local councils to remove anything they don't like, however - instead of the ridiculous current situation where you can advertise whatever the hell you want if you own the land.

Likewise, advertising alongside motorways should be banned.

alexw68

May 3, 11, 11:43 #29

JonnyM:

It helps the economy and provides work, especially for the signwriters and billboard makers, but are those dreaful placards really effective?

Same problem in webspace. When I go to Rzeczpospolita or GW's homepage I don't want to see the top 240 pixels taken up by a banner ad - or the whole page hijacked by a Flash overlay where half the time you can't even see the 'hide' x-button.

Someone, somewhere, however, whose understanding of the web peaked in about 1998 still thinks it's a good idea though...

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,143 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	May 3, 11, 11:44 #30
delphiandomine: A hell of a lot poorer. And thinking that all these Smolenkists & Radio Marija think Poland should get out of the "godless EU".

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