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Poland wants NATO to plan an end to Afghan mission


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David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 15, 10, 20:53    #1
Is it a "good" or a "bad" thing?


In my opinion Poland should stay ( Could motivate my answer with milj words ).


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i4tHHi0gqZ1hw5eGeRZQ XyYf9PnwD9G9SJL00

And here is another interesting link on this issue.
http://blogs.wsj.com/new-europe/2010/06/14/poland-gives-knee-jerk-reac tion-to-afghanistan-death/
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 00:29    #2
I think we should try to leave as soon as possible, BUT ...

Not before we have trained enough ANA's and ANP's to do the job, otherwise all our work would have been in vain. In the meantime, PRT's can help rebuild the infrastructure.

As soon as there are enough ANA's and ANP's, the military can leave.

Let's then help them (and I mean really help, not steal) to get their gold and other minerals out of the ground so they can really build their economy.

After that, they can manage themselves.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 00:30    #3
Stu, we? I thought you were Dutch. Were you talking about the Dutch commandos?
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: Stu  Jun 16, 10, 00:34    #4
I was there twice, Seanus. That's why I said "we".

But the same goes for all the coalition forces.

And yes ... I am against the fact the Dutch forces retreat. That's why I didn't vote for any of the parties that were in favour of getting out of Afghanistan (we had parliamentary elections last week).
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 00:36    #5
Aha, that's a bit risky, isn't it? Do you know what they'd do to you if they caught you?
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 00:38    #6
They don't take prisoners, generally speaking. They blow you up or shoot you.
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 05:37    #7
Stu:
They blow you up or shoot you.

hmm.. and i thought you spent time there.. they cut your head off not the other stuff.
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 06:04    #8
Poland needs to worry about Poland not Afghanistan and the united states terrorist policies
polish troops need to go home as soon as possible.
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 06:23    #9
Poland needs to go home, and the US needs to cut all military ties and take care of America. Poland is a cancerous ligament of US defense strategy that needs to be amputated.

Don't allow the pilots or soldiers to train with US force, don't allow US sales of military equipment, no intelligence sharing, don't provide any support whatsoever.

Marek, I agree with you. Poland should take care of Poland. US should take care of the US.
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: plk123  Jun 16, 10, 06:52    #10
convex:
the US needs to cut all military ties and take care of America. Poland is a cancerous ligament of US defense strategy that needs to be amputated.

Don't allow the pilots or soldiers to train with US force, don't allow US sales of military equipment, no intelligence sharing, don't provide any support whatsoever.

Marek, I agree with you. Poland should take care of Poland. US should take care of the US.

i don't really agree.. at this point US needs to finish the job.. US really needs to get the eff out of Iraq where it should have never went in in the first place.. what a waste of time, lives and resources.. US got sidetracked there instead of taking care of the first job it had which was/is Afghanistan..

I think abandoning Afghanistan right now may be the worst thing US can do.. the place is a real mess and is very much at a tipping point.. leaving now, would be disastrous for everyone's future.. i think Obama's plan is also unrealistic... it would be OK if US didn't neglect its obligation there for the past 8 years... if US leaves next summer. Karzai is a dead man and taliban will run over the whole place also placing Pakistan in danger and Pakistan has the bomb... do you really want the taliban to have the bomb??

as to PL.. it shouldn't have ever helped in Iraq, and I have mixed feelings about its presence in Afghanistan.. if polish people in PL think it's time to withdraw, then that is what should be done.. if not, then Polish forces should help out fight the terrorism there.

David_18:

blogs.wsj.com/new-europe/2010/06/14/poland-gives-knee-jerk-reac tion-to-afghanistan-death/



agree that it is a knee jerk reaction and those are never good.
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: Stu  Jun 16, 10, 07:22    #11
plk123:
hmm.. and i thought you spent time there.. they cut your head off not the other stuff.


Do you ever read the news about soldiers who've lost their lives or got wounded in Afghanistan? They generally loose their lives by IED and bullet wounds, not by their heads being cut off. And yes, I have been there; in 2006 and 2008.

And no, I don't agree that NATO-forces should withdraw. We initially went there to defeat Al-Qaeda. The then Taliban-government in Afghanistan sheltered them, there were training camps over there. Al Qaeda decided to attack first in 2001. In August 2003, upon request of the UN and the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, NATO took command of ISAF. Soon after, the UN mandated ISAF’s gradual expansion outside of Kabul.

To state it very simply, NATO now has to bring stability and security to Afghanistan in order for the Taliban not to take over again and for Al-Qaeda to stay on the run so they are not able to attack again.

It's not only about America; it's about the security of NATO-countries from Al-Qaeda attacks, Al Qaeda which has always called for global Jihad. I don't want to have to look over my shoulder all the time whether there is some guy with a rucksack in the metro, the busses or the train. Or some guy trying to blow up a plane with his underpants or shoes, thank you.

I don't really want islamists with their Jihad, killing innocent people, (read well!! ISLAMISTS, I am not talking about normal muslims!) and running through my country telling me I have to believe in Muhammed or else. (Don't forget that Christian missionaries mutatis mutandis did the same thing, a couple of hundred years ago, but that's beside the point).

And with regard to the Taliban: wanna see how they treat women?

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24LNQfIxbXI]

That they poison girls whose only crime is that they want to have an education?

If that's all okay with you, then there is something wrong with the world.

Was it an ill-conceived concept to try to capture Al-Qaeda in the mountains between the Afghan and Pakistan border. Of course it was. It was dead easy for them to outrun NATO-forces. Not only could they easily withdraw into Pakistan, but there are enough other rogue states which shelter them. It should have been planned better from the beginning.

But the work ISAF-troops (and that includes Polish forces) do in Afghanistan to combat the Taliban and make life better for ordinary Afghans is pretty amazing. They DO make a difference and I commend their guts and resilience.

Are there problems? Of course there are! Karzai isn't really known for his honesty and there are more issues. But generally they are addressed.
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 08:00    #12
Stu:

Do you ever read the news about soldiers who've lost their lives or got wounded in Afghanistan? They generally loose their lives by IED and bullet wounds, not by their heads being cut off.

i was talking about capture.. if/when that happens.. heads tend to roll.. but you're right about ied etc..

Stu:
Was it an ill-conceived concept to try to capture Al-Qaeda in the mountains between the Afghan and Pakistan border. Of course it was. It was dead easy for them to outrun NATO-forces. Not only could they easily withdraw into Pakistan, but there are enough other rogue states which shelter them. It should have been planned better from the beginning.

definitely should have had a better plan.. US let OBL get away, pure and simple.. and i don't think it was ill conceived.. there just wasn't a real plan in place.. oh well, too late now.. who knows where that bastard is at this point.
David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 09:11    #13
Does anyone know how much it cost for Poland to stay there?
nomaderolThreads: 7
Posts: 1,213
Joined: Oct 18, 09 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 09:39    #14
Stu:
I don't really want islamists


Double standard of the West.. While the West saying they are challenging against "Islamists" and doing actions in Afganistan, Iraq, Africa, etc it is the same West giving much financial supports to islamists in Turkey. How Erdogan, known as an islamist been elected twice? By their financial supports of Bush, Blair and Europe. Britain formed a fake religious islamist sect in Turkey pre-WWI and its present leader of this sect or movement is in a comfortable luxury farm in USA now, giving conferences in USA and Britain. You know what? This religious leader escaped out of Turkey and can find himself in the jail if he returns for his activities against the secular form of Turkey. But, USA and Britain are protecting him. Turkey have been challenging such things based on religious things for about 100 years and it is the West supporting them islamists in different ways, financially etc.. Look at rich Arab kingdoms. They too are money sources for islamists and whose best friends these rich Arab kingdoms are? Of the West... Who believes the West.. Nobody. You are against the islamists? Yea yea... You get what you deserve.. West is in marsh. You were warned not to enter Iraq, Afganistan, etc.. It is a marsh. When you try to save yourself out of marsh yourself, you go deeper. West needs a help, but, you are so arrogant wiseacres that you don't even see your feet in mud already even in your own lands (read economy crisis.) You unable to help yourself and you want to help others? You can.. Show the world first how a good social country can be formed, in your own place first.

Poland should get out of Afganistan? No, they should help the West to show them the West is mentally sick.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Sokrates  Jun 16, 10, 09:43    #15
Stu:
I was there twice, Seanus. That's why I said "we".

Everyone was in Afghanistan, there's so many Europeans yet on every forum there's someone who's been in Afghanistan.

We should bug out, its America's war not an european one.
David_18:
Does anyone know how much it cost for Poland to stay there?

About 12% of grand total military spending, the cost of maintaining units there is several times higher then at home so in reality we're paying as if for 8.000 men.

Also much of the equipment that went there will have to be scrapped, go through serious repairs due to conditions and remember we're not p*ssing money.
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 09:43    #16
nomaderol:
Britain formed a fake religious islamist sect in Turkey pre-WWI and its present leader of this sect or movement is in a comfortable luxury farm in USA now, giving conferences in USA and Britain. You know what? This religious leader escaped out of Turkey and can find himself in the jail if he returns for his activities against the secular form of Turkey. But, USA and Britain are protecting him.

linky?
nomaderolThreads: 7
Posts: 1,213
Joined: Oct 18, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: nomaderol  Jun 16, 10, 09:51    #17
U.S. Government Support for Gülen?
Many Turkish analysts believe that, prior to Erdoğan's election, Gülen and his supporters in the U.S. government helped obtain an invitation to the White House for him at a time when Erdoğan was banned from politics in Turkey due to his Islamist activities—an event viewed as a U.S. endorsement ahead of the 2002 Turkish elections. That the U.S. government and, specifically, the Central Intelligence Agency support the Gülen movement is conventional wisdom among Turkey's secular elite even though no hard evidence exists to support such allegations.

When Turkish secularists are asked to defend the view that Gülen enjoys U.S. support, they often point to his almost 20-year residence in eastern Pennsylvania. After the Supreme Court of Appeals in Turkey (Yargıtay) confirmed on June 24, 2008, a lower court's ruling to acquit Gülen on charges that he organized an illegal terrorist organization to overthrow the secular government in Turkey, Gülen won another legal battle, this time in the United States. A federal court reversed U.S. Department of Homeland Security and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service decisions that would have denied Gülen's application for permanent residency in the United States on the basis that Gülen did not fit the criteria as someone with "extraordinary ability in the field of education." The Department of Homeland Security characterized Gülen as neither an expert in the field of education nor an educator but rather as "the leader of a large and influential religious and political movement with immense commercial holdings."

More ... http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition

He has tousands of schools (high schools, universities, etc) all over the world. Maybe, this is biggest civil organization in the world, at least, they claim so.. His supporters here in Turkey claim that money comes from Turks donating. But, it is nonsense. 70-80% of teachers are nonTurks, but, Americans, Brits and Europeans. Turkey secular state as well as majority of Turks consider this religion movement too as a movement against Turkey, but, it is the West and their rich Arab kingdoms supporting this islamic movement here in Turkey. And, you have complain against islamists elsewhere? yea yea..
plk123Threads: 30
Posts: 6,412
Joined: Aug 29, 07  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 09:54    #18
thanks, interesting stuff
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 10:07    #19
There will always be excuses thrown in to prolong the mission. Funny that we never heard of the overall success of Operation Moshtarak. I respect the job of a soldier but am amazed at their naivety sometimes, fighting in an unjust war. I wouldn't fight there for the simple reason that the Taliban would be teeming with anger. I read the Wojciech Jagielski book, 'Modlitwa o Deszcz', and his account of them was favourable. They have simply been oppressed by the greedy and decadent West and that Berg captive fella should count his lucky stars that they haven't lopped off his head yet.
David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 11:20    #20
Interesting article

http://trueslant.com/markadomanis/2010/06/15/in-barack-obamas-america- poland-throws-you-under-the-bus/
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 12:06    #21
David_18:
Interesting article


It's not an article, according to me. It's something some blogger wrote, which makes the facts highly questionable.

Maybe I am old-fashioned, but an article according to me is something written by the press. But maybe we are talking semantics now.
David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 12:19    #22
Stu:
It's not an article, according to me. It's something some blogger wrote, which makes the facts highly questionable.


A blogg then :)

But he had some interesting points though.
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
Posts: 2,529
Joined: Apr 27, 07  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 19:42    #23
Stop nonsense, children...NATO in Afghanistan for two reasons: Security force for planned Rothschild/BP pipeline through Kandahar...Reason Two: Security force for heroin 'pipeline'...That all.

Peace plan?...Get out.

West have no legitimate reason for being there...None, unless you consider what I mentioned a justification.
time meansThreads: 9
Posts: 2,306
Joined: Apr 21, 08  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 19:46    #24
joepilsudski:
That all.


Maybe not?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7826782/US- discovers-1-trillion-in-untapped-mineral-deposits-in-Afghanistan.html
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,432
Joined: May 28, 09 ♀ 		 Jun 16, 10, 19:48    #25
Latest news is Afghanistan is loaded with Lithium and iron-ore. It has the potential to become one of the richest nations on earth. You can bet NATO will be there for many years to come.
David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 19:49    #26
time means:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/78267 82/US- discovers-1-trillion-in-untapped-mineral-deposits-in-Afghanistan.html


Will any other country see that money besides the U.S? Guess not...
Marek11111Threads: 49
Posts: 1,954
Joined: Aug 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 19:55    #27
Will any other country see that money besides the U.S? Guess not...

not even united states will see it, maybe corporations will but tax payer of united states will have to pay in blood for corporations to mine mineral deposits.
I think united states will lose the war like the soviets did.
StuThreads: 27
Posts: 1,109
Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: Stu  Jun 16, 10, 20:06    #28
PlasticPole:
Latest news is Afghanistan is loaded with


That's what I was writing at 00:29. It was in the news yesterday. And the day before, by the way.

joepilsudski:
Security force for planned Rothschild/BP pipeline through Kandahar


Stop whining about a pipeline (shove it where the sun doesn't shine)... and trying to get Jews involved again. It's sooooo boring. You must be so incredibly frustrated to always want to get Jews involved. I guess you think the Jews are responsible for when the sun goes down in the evening or the moon doesn't shine once a month. Cut the crap and grow up. And don't come to me with links of some stupid bloggers on the internet either. Seen them all, read them all, they are crap. For me they have the same objectivity and newsworthiness as reports about crop circles.

joepilsudski:
West have no legitimate reason for being there


Forgot 9/11, have you? Forgot that it was on the request of the UN and the Afghan government, have you? There's your legitimacy.

Sokrates:
its America's war not an european one


It is NATO ... Poland is part of NATO. Want to get out, get out of NATO. By wanting to get into NATO, Poland committed itself to the rules of NATO. Don't like it? On the 20th of June you can have your vote; look for a presidential candidate who wants to get out of NATO and maybe even out of the EU. Be my guest.

nomaderol:
Everyone was in Afghanistan


Unlike you. But thousands of Poles, Canadians (not really Europeans), Australians (last time I looked they aren't part of Europe either) and 44 (!) other countries are part of ISAF.

nomaderol:
How Erdogan, known as an islamist been elected twice? By their financial supports of Bush, Blair and Europe


By the Turkish people voting for him, that's how. You want to tell me that elections were rigged? Fine, that makes it all the more apparent that Turkey should not be part of the EU. And I for one will always vote for that (if my government doesn't withhold me the right for a referendum, that is).
David_18Threads: 111
Posts: 1,212
Joined: Jan 4, 07 ♂ 		 Jun 16, 10, 20:22    #29
Stu:
It is NATO ... Poland is part of NATO. Want to get out, get out of NATO. By wanting to get into NATO, Poland committed itself to the rules of NATO. Don't like it? On the 20th of June you can have your vote; look for a presidential candidate who wants to get out of NATO and maybe even out of the EU. Be my guest.


Why not kick out the U.S from Nato?
In my opinion they are doing more bad then good. I can seriously say that the U.S murdered milj of innocent people, and what do they say about it? they were rebels/terrorist/guerillas/Communists.
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: convex  Jun 16, 10, 20:32    #30
plk123:
i don't really agree.. at this point US needs to finish the job..

What's "the job"? The US has a terrible track record when it comes to police actions.

plk123:
Karzai is a dead man and taliban will run over the whole place also placing Pakistan in danger and Pakistan has the bomb... do you really want the taliban to have the bomb??

How many Taliban attacks have there been on US interests outside of Pakistan and Afghanistan? The Taliban in Pakistan is getting a lot of support based on the Pakistani government aiding the US. We're just accelerating it by sticking around.

Sokrates:
Everyone was in Afghanistan, there's so many Europeans yet on every forum there's someone who's been in Afghanistan.

I've been to Afghanistan...in a Fiat Panda...an old one.

Marek11111:
I think united states will lose the war like the soviets did.

I don't think any country that is worried about its international image can win a guerrilla "war" without the support of the population.

Stu:
It is NATO ... Poland is part of NATO. Want to get out, get out of NATO. By wanting to get into NATO, Poland committed itself to the rules of NATO. Don't like it? On the 20th of June you can have your vote; look for a presidential candidate who wants to get out of NATO and maybe even out of the EU. Be my guest.


The treaty covers actions in Europe and North America. Says nothing about Asia. There is also no obligation to provide troops, money, or any material aid. NATO actually lacks any teeth when you look at it a bit closer.

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