Poland’s Economy Is No Joke

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Edited by: jwojcie Jan 21, 10, 01:21 #31

Wroclaw Boy:

What ever the case id really like to see some links to NFZ monetary situations. Polish or not.

in polish...
http://www.rynekzdrowia.pl/Finanse-i-zarzadzanie/Plan-finansowy-NFZ-na -2010-r-podpisany-przez-wiceministra-zdrowia,13957,1.html

in short: yes they estimate there will be less money from insurance/taxes but there is something called reserve fund for such scenarios. But in general it would be not easy year for hospitals (NFZ is always fine, because they contract only as much as they have money for).

PS. As far as Shiff is concerned, for all I know the guy then I'm sure he wouldn't be in favour of anything like National Health Insurer, so I wouldn't mix his article with health care :-) It was more about finance world. It just happend, that Polish banks didn't sell securitization crap and Polish gov. didn't even have to think about rescuing them, lucky bastards ;-) So in that regards Poland's economy indeed is no joke, just old plain simple banking. Before crisis it suppose to be "retarded" to lend and keep the loan on books...

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Jan 21, 10, 06:15 #32

bullfrog:

Exactly, I agree. The case HG was referring to is just an example of one company which went bust, it cannot be generalized

Private business going bust can't be compared to public sector workers not getting paid either.

SeanBM:

If indeed "People not having been paid for 6 months, or even up to a year." as is your claim, I am sure it would be written about in the papers.

If the govenrment attempted to not pay these workers for even one month, Solidarność would be rioting/causing trouble as always and PiS would be shouting about it from the rooftops. I'm also certain that public sector workers not being paid would be mentioned by the English-language media in Poland.

Still waiting for these mythical links too.

As for schoolchildren not getting dinners - since when in Poland has it been practice for schoolchildren to receive dinners anyway?

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Jan 21, 10, 10:01 #33

Honest George:

Apart from the daily news channels, try watching " Magazyn ekspresu reporterow ", Tuesday 21.45. " Sprawa dla reportera ", Thursday 21.00.

delphiandomine:

Still waiting for these mythical links too.

Personally I fully believe that Honest George saw such things in aforementioned tv shows, because I used to watch them sometimes too. The problem is, that those programs are designed precisely to show what is wrong in this country and as such are sometimes very good journalism (sometimes they can be politically driven). But basing entire personal view on this and making bold generalizations is just wrong. It is like saying that "many people has six fingers because I know a man who has six fingers".

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Jan 21, 10, 11:43 #34

jwojcie:

But basing entire personal view on this and making bold generalizations is just wrong. It is like saying that "many people has six fingers because I know a man who has six fingers".

Its not just one issue I have seen, but many, otherwise I would not generalize. ( I,m a little too old for that ).

I also would like to stipulate that although I speak and understand the Polish language, I do not write, and have trouble reading it. Hence, when people here ask for links and statistics to back up my statements, I am not in the best position to comply.
However, I will endeavor.

JucheThreads: 13 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 17, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 12:58 #35
delphiandomine: since when in Poland has it been practice for schoolchildren to receive dinners anyway? didn't they recieve dinners under socialism, or at least he grade school kids? OK so it was runny spinnach and burnt (and therefore incredibly stinky) milk and rice soup, but it was free.

Honest GeorgeThreads: 2 Posts: 121 Joined: Nov 12, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 13:34 #36
delphiandomine: As for schoolchildren not getting dinners - since when in Poland has it been practice for schoolchildren to receive dinners anyway? This applies to the poorer classes, so has been common practice for some time. Sorry I didn,t mention this before, but I did not realize just the fortunate few use PF.

JucheThreads: 13 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 17, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 14:31 #37
Honest George: Sorry I didn,t mention this before, but I did not realize just the fortunate few use PF. so is your other nickname "Random Thought Man?"

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Edited by: jwojcie Jan 21, 10, 15:07 #38

Honest George:

Its not just one issue I have seen, but many, otherwise I would not generalize.

I understand you, I just want to point out that those tv shows you mentioned are made exactly for finding and showing people in trouble. And often this is good journalism. But as such, they are focused only on part of picture. So in order to make some generalizations it would be proper to take some broader statistics/info and compare it with those choosen group. For example, if they show some shipyard workers struggling for finding new jobs, then probably it is the case for huge part of shipbuilding industry, because most of big shipyards are in trouble. But if you see some town where some producer of car parts is laying of people it will not be probably the image of entire industry, which as far as I know, so far in general take the crisis hit relatively well.
Last but not least, one have to take into consideration that Polish tv, especially public tv tends to be politically biased, depending on current political deal. For example now public tv is in hands of PIS and SLD (it is changing like in kaleidoscope recently).

Juche:

didn't they recieve dinners under socialism, or at least he grade school kids? OK so it was runny spinnach and burnt (and therefore incredibly stinky) milk and rice soup, but it was free.

Well, when I was young... :-) during PRL, they were canteens at elementary school with cheap meal for everyone. If I remember correctly one had to do some monthly payment. For all I know now it varies between schools and towns, some things are school things, some are organized by local gov (because schools belongs there now), and I think there is/was some central goverment program regarding free meals for poor children.

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Jan 21, 10, 15:41 #39

Poland is growing, no doubt. However, average salary is still below 1000 Euro. There are still mass immigration to the West, taking the lowest pay jobs. The economic is driven by private sector, FDI because of size of the market (there isn't another 'developing' EU country with this size of population). The development is concentrated in a few places and a few groups of ppl.

Honest George:

I did not realize just the fortunate few use PF

You shouldn't be surprise, first is because of English and second is not that cheap to use internet in PL.

I agree with your point of view. The poor population is growing at the same rate as the middle class. Those arguement about every country at the moment is suffering is correct, but I think we should look at the standard of suffering. Those countries are at a higher level, because they developed during the good years and it takes quite a big sum to run their system now. In here it stay the same or getting worst. Last few years were the best years of growth in PL but you can see there isn't any big improvement in public sector. Hospital, school, roads are still in poor standard. In those years the combined KM of highway built is below 100.

I do heard about ppl not geting pay for months in private (or public listed) companies in Poland, however, the issue is not that there isn't any money but when the cash flow is tight, the usual practice here or in this part of the Europe is not to pay the staffs. Same as Public sector, is not like there isn't any money to improve anything, but the money went to a few chosen one. A simple exmaple is the roads. The same roads is being repair every year. Is it because PL ppl don't know how to build road? No, because part of the building material is stolen for private use and that's why, the road built is not up to the standard and destroy very easy. Specially in the part of the countries that no improant ppl will see. Until I see there is more money spend on improving ppl living standard, I would not say "Poland's Economy is no joke" because if slightly drop in the growth or money from aboard, there will be a huge problem and will be very hard for PL to handle.

ps Pls kindly do not whoever country is worst, because we are talking about Poland not try to compare if Poland is better than africa or ukraine.

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Edited by: jwojcie Jan 21, 10, 15:54 #40

anton888:

In those years the combined KM of highway built is below 100.

In what years exactly? Of course there is no doubt that polish road network is sparse, but in last couple of years there were big changes. Currently there is really HUGE develompent going on concerning highways (one of the reasons why polish economy took crisis hit relatively well). There is silent revolution going on (especially since not so long ago law concerning tenders changed). Not much people is paying attention to that (here you can find everything):

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=49478773&postcount=2917

New highways (mostly on new track):

Rok A 2x2 S 2x2 S 1x2 Ogółem 2x2 Ogółem(summary)
______________________________________________________________________ ________

2000 90 0 0 90 90
2001 38 0 0 38 38
2002 5 0 3 5 8
2003 69 15 5 84 89
2004 50 4 0 54 54
2005 34 20 15 54 69
2006 174 28 23 202 225
2007 24 30 28 54 82
2008 65 54 87 119 206
2009 85 71 13 156 169
2010* 30 146 12 176 188
2011* 126 60 1 186 187
2012* 400 240 7 640 647
2013* 0 0 0 0 0
2014* 56 0 0 56 56

anton888Threads: 1 Posts: 103 Joined: Jun 5, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 15:57 #41
Sorry my mistake, that's HUGE development. Is great! Should be pround of it!

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Edited by: jwojcie Jan 21, 10, 16:02 #42

Yeap, definitely good thing is going on in that field. By the way it is another example of poor journalism in Poland... People in that skyscrapper forum (mostly highway freaks :-) ) are often going mad with news in Polish media usually focused on some problems, which is not bad actually, but news which are entirely not conected with reality.. As saying goes, usually devil is in details (is it the same in Englis btw?)

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Jan 21, 10, 16:15 #43

jwojcie:

In what years exactly? Of course there is no doubt that polish road network is sparse, but in last couple of years there were big changes. Currently there is really HUGE develompent going on concerning highways (one of the reasons why polish economy took crisis hit relatively well). There is silent revolution going on (especially since not so long ago law concerning tenders changed). Not much people is paying attention to that (here you can find everything):

what sucks is that even if they do build, they build poorly. how often do we hear on the news that "so and so stretch of road, opened for use two years ago, already has to be resurfaced due to shoddy construction...."???? the answer to that question is: often.

Pathetic.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09 ♂	Jan 21, 10, 16:21 #44
Juche: what sucks is that even if they do build, they build poorly. That is another general perception made from news and previous experience. Recently this notion is being build in common consciousness mostly because of A4 between Katowice and Krakow. This poor road is constantly on the news.

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Jan 22, 10, 09:02 #45

jwojcie:

That is another general perception made from news and previous experience.

maybe, but a new automated system used in central Warsaw to tell passangers when their trams are coming (looks all sleek and modern, the standard EU funded fanfare) is rarely accurate. whenever I stand under those dumb digital signs and they are way off (or they are 100% down) how can I not shudder and think to myself "these twits can't build anything properly." Its not just the A4, buddy. Its everything we see around here, including the way that snow is removed after a heavy snowfall. And what's the excuse? 50 years of communism? that ended 20 years ago....

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Edited by: jwojcie Jan 22, 10, 12:58 #46

Yeap Juche, vanitas vanitatum et omnia vanitas...
I suppose you are on the empty side of the glass guy :-) I'm talking about highway building program wich is going relatively well recently, and you are saying that someone somewhere didn't clear snow properly... I have really no idea how this two things adds up together :-) You know, trams and snow clearing is responsibility of the local city gov, in your case Warsaw probably... I haven't experienced Warsaw this winter yet...

Anyway, "I think that this winter will end sonner or later" ;-) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2XP5cc-AAQ&feature=related

ExiledThreads: 5 Posts: 729 Joined: Jan 17, 10 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 13:40 #47
Juche: henever I stand under those dumb digital signs and they are way off (or they are 100% down) how can I not shudder and think to myself "these twits can't build anything properly." Its not just the A4, buddy. Are you not located in North Korea?

anton888Threads: 1 Posts: 103 Joined: Jun 5, 09 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 13:55 #48
Sometimes in places outside the city center or only the back street of city center (especially in Lodz), you can have the feel of north Korea or some war torn countries. I think the tourism organisations can promote it as "A Safe place to experience War Torn feeling" :-)

ExiledThreads: 5 Posts: 729 Joined: Jan 17, 10 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 13:56 #49
anton888: you can have the feel of north Korea or some war torn countries. So North Korea has to be like Poland.

anton888Threads: 1 Posts: 103 Joined: Jun 5, 09 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 14:00 #50
Both leader look very similar...:-)

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Edited by: Moderator Jan 22, 10, 14:09 #51

Poles working in the UK sent home an estimated £1.8billion last year.

Money Downing Street hoped might be ploughed into the British economy is instead financing a property and consumer boom in Poland.

The Polish Central Bank said the two million Poles who left home to work elsewhere in Europe sent home at least £3billion in 2007 via money orders and electronic financial transactions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506148/Poles-working-Britain-s end-home-record-1-8bn-families.html

bravoThreads: 4 Posts: 101 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♂	Jan 22, 10, 14:10 #52
Honest George: Poles working in the UK sent home an estimated £1.8billion last year. How much money did BRits make buying and selling Polish property last year?

Honest GeorgeThreads: 2 Posts: 121 Joined: Nov 12, 09 ♂	Edited by: Moderator Jan 22, 10, 14:24 #53
A leading Polish expert on migration has told the BBC that it is simply not true that half the Polish migrants in the UK have returned home. A recent report estimated that at least half the 1.5 million eastern European migrants who have come to the UK since 2004 have returned home. Do not 'cut and paste' full pages of text. 100 words + URL.

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Jan 22, 10, 16:01 #54

Honest George:

The Polish Central Bank said the two million Poles who left home to work elsewhere in Europe sent home at least £3billion in 2007 via money orders and electronic financial transactions.

Let me tell you its really evident when you line up at a Kantor, theres Poles pulling out huge wads of Euros and Sterling to exchange. I could never understand why the criminals dont target these areas more, easy money. Also most Polish accounts offer opening up foreign currency accounts as standard, you can even make online banking FX transfers, very handy but a poor exchange rate.

Honest George:

A leading Polish expert on migration has told the BBC that it is simply not true that half the Polish migrants in the UK have returned home.

Who ever said they did go home?

Honest George:

A recent report estimated that at least half the 1.5 million eastern European migrants who have come to the UK since 2004 have returned home.

Bollocks, 1 in 11 of my home town are Polish - fact.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Jan 22, 10, 16:11 #55
Honest George: Great economy ? . Compared to what it was, yes it is now much better. Wroclaw Boy: I could never understand why the criminals dont target these areas more, easy money. They get hit all the time, in Krakow there are many Kontor (Bureau de change)robberies not of the clients but of the Kontors themselves

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Wroclaw Boy Jan 22, 10, 16:26 #56

SeanBM:

They get hit all the time, in Krakow there are many Kontor (Bureau de change)robberies not of the clients but of the Kontors themselves

Its not surprising, ive changed 50 Large before in a wooden shack in the middle of a shopping centre thinking this is a bit dodgy, no secure panels, glass, anything. What i meant was lookouts spying on kantors, seeing whos changing what and how much, follow them and wham.

Maybe its common but ive never heard of it, on the whole im under the impression that crime rates in Poland are relatively low.

JucheThreads: 13 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 17, 09 ♂	Edited by: Juche Jan 22, 10, 16:30 #57
Exiled: Are you not located in North Korea? no, I am based in Warsaw, here on a special mission.

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Jan 22, 10, 23:14 #58

jwojcie:

Currently there is really HUGE develompent going on concerning highways (one of the reasons why polish economy took crisis hit relatively well). There is silent revolution going on (especially since not so long ago law concerning tenders changed). Not much people is paying attention to that (here you can find everything):

that's right, and that in turn will boost growth in the coming years in poland

paskuda	Jan 23, 10, 02:09 #59
delphiandomine: Where on earth have people not been paid for 6 months? I think Lying George means in Russia under Yeltsin.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Jan 23, 10, 02:29 #60
paskuda A couple of years ago some of the nurses in the Łódż region didn't get paid for four months, just before Christmas. Hospitals there had collection boxes so they could get money for food.

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