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Poland's Jewish first lady?


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jonniThreads: 26
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Edited by: jonni  Jan 30, 10, 23:36    #31
Sokrates:
we're voulnarable and need to be more careful.

Every country that is not a superpower is vulnerable. But more careful than who? Poland as a country has a lot of common sense.

Sokrates:
you do have opinions that fit in a general frame of political correctness.

True. Born of personal experience of the effects of extremism and hatred. Though most people who know me would say I'm very politically incorrect.

Sokrates:
Use your imagination, if she doesnt like Poland

There's no suggestion of that - if anything the opposite, and anyway, Anne Applebaum is hardly going to be an eminence grise.

Sokrates:
she might influence her husband in a negative way

If he's got the dynamism and political ability to become president of a major country he's probably got the wherewithal to form his own opinions as well as very strong skills of discernment.

Sokrates:
heck she might even work with groups who seek to exploit Poland

So might a Polish wife, if she's the sort to do so. And she'd be found out pretty quickly if she tried.

Sokrates:
such things happened in the past

When did the president's wife do that in the past?

Matyjasz:
Do you think it is?

Yes.

Sokrates:
Poland is Poland, its a mix of East and West, ......we need to find our own way.

Yes, yes and yes. And it is a young democracy that is maturing fast.

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 Jan 30, 10, 23:47    #32
jonni:
Every country that is not a superpower is vulnerable. But more careful than who? Poland as a country has a lot of common sense.

More carefull then countries West and North of our border, currently the only countries with more to worry about are the deep frontier ones, Belarus and Ukraine.

jonni:
True. Born of personal experience of the effects of extremism and hatred.

Which is why i pointed out that you're Joes opposite, he's an obsessive conspiration maniac and you're liberal to the point of naivety.

jonni:
If he's got the dynamism and political ability to become president of a major country he's probably got the wherewithal to withstand to form his own opinions.

Quite a lot people who were not dynamic and couldnt form an opinion if their life depended on it became presidents, Bush, Wałęsa etc.
jonni:
So might a Polish wife, if she's the sort to do so. And she'd be found out pretty quickly if she tried.

She's less likely then a foreign one.
jonni:
When did the president's wife do that in the past?

You really want me to recount women near power who influenced their partners? Starting from Cleopatra till XX century? All of them?

jonni:
Yes, yes and yes. And it is a young democracy that is maturing fast.

Mature does not mean Western style, for example i believe that the West made a mistake letting in large numbers of Blacks and Muslims who are now a growing danger to their way of life and cultural/civilisational integrity, being mature means also avoiding mistakes of your predecessors.

We should never ever emulate heavily flawed Western democracies, democracy? Yes but the Polish way.
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
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 Jan 30, 10, 23:58    #33
Sokrates:
Which is why i pointed out that you're Joes opposite, he's an obsessive conspiration maniac and you're liberal to the point of naivety.

Young man, I object to your characterization...I believe in no 'conspiracy theories' and in fact all that we discuss is open fact, and published in mainstream media, in part or in total.

As far as liberal, whatever this may mean, I am quite 'liberal' in regard toward human relations and my fellow man or woman...You would be shocked if you knew me or heard my music, which is available on the Internet.

All I discuss is historical trends...History tends to repeat itself, and it moves in a continuum...However, the line goes very far back, and we often lose sight of events and people in history that would shed light on what happens in the present.

As for the future, it can be wonderful if we face reality and move without fear.
jonniThreads: 26
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Edited by: jonni  Jan 31, 10, 00:01    #34
Sokrates:
liberal to the point of naivety.

In what way naive? If I held the opposite view, what would that change?

Sokrates:
Bush, Wałęsa etc.

And you're comparing Sikorski to those clowns?

Sokrates:
She's less likely then a foreign one.

That is meaningless.

Sokrates:
Starting from Cleopatra till XX century? All of them?

Cleopatra was married to the President of Poland? I must have been absent from school on the day we learnt about that. Can you cite a case where a foreign-born spouse (or indeed any spouse) of a Polish president has adversely influenced them.

Sokrates:
letting in large numbers of Blacks

Down to nitty gritty, it had to come sooner or later.

Sokrates:
their way of life and cultural/civilisational integrity

These are fluid and constantly change. This can't be stopped. Even in Poland. Of course, Poland could always stagnate. It could become the Tibet of Central Europe.

Sokrates:
being mature means also avoiding mistakes of your predecessors.

Yes. Not that a president with a foreign-born wife can remotely be described as a 'mistake of predecessors'.

Sokrates:
democracy? Yes but the Polish way.

Of course, but does this preclude the President being married to an eminent foreign-born academic?

I'm off to the pub. Way too tired and too late, but I said I'd go. And have to get up early for the synagogue tomorrow.

I think you have some valid points, but underestimate the centuries old liberal and individualist tradition here in Poland - and the way it can work for Poland's and Europe's benefit, and the fact that the world is changing fast, with Poland perhaps changing faster, and that Poland needs to both cherish its traditions and move forward to the next level.
enkiduThreads: 18
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Edited by: enkidu  Jan 31, 10, 00:02    #35
delphiandomine:
I still don't understand this - sure, people who were around before WW2 might have a reason to dislike Jews, but nowadays?

Maybe because it has something to do with the hate and lie campaign that is thrown on us by certain fraction of Jews? Come on - don't you read anything? Don't you read even this forum?
Don't you know that Poles are thefts, murderers, traitors who are responsible for the Holocaust? Don't you know that we did build Auschwitz and forced Germans to use it? Didn't you heard about Poles held on the gunpoint by an Israeli bodyguards? Or Israeli youth defecating on the hotel beds in Poland? (I don't blame those young people. They were told that we deserve this kind of treatment. They've never questioned this. They are young. It is not their fault.)

This is simple - they are obviously hate us for some reason. Therefore we dislike them.

I will better speak for myself - I am feel very sorry that so little Jews has left in Poland. They were part of our history, our tradition. Poland before war was much more colourful and rich country thanks to them. WW2 was like amputation of a limb of our nation.

Personally I have got nothing against Miss Applebaum. She may be even alien from outer space. Not my business. However Mr Sikorski is kind of nobody. I don't know what he stand for. Have not idea what I can expect from him.

By the way - Poland IS eastern country. I realised this only after a few years spend on "the West". And I have to say, I am pretty proud of our "easterness".
pawianThreads: 80
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Edited by: pawian  Jan 31, 10, 00:06    #36
Polonius3:
Do you think that will be a problem for Polish voters?

Yes, but only for Antisemites.

jonni:
In Poland, the loony right and extreme 'nationalists' generally accuse every politician they don't like of being Jewish anyway.

Why do Poles see Jews everywhere?
g

On the left, the Primate of Catholic Church in Poland. In the middle, President who was in power a few years ago.
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Edited by: Piorun  Jan 31, 10, 00:51    #37
pawian:
Yes, but only for Antisemites.

Do you mean those that will not for him because he is a citizen of a foreign country with foreign wife and might wonder if he would really be the best choice for Poland or what his allegiance might be? Would he really represent Poland? Is that really Anti-Semitism in your opinion? Just something to think about for those of us who are Anti-Semites. Perhaps we don’t want to vote for him because he is a racist, didn’t he say that “Obamas’ grandfather was a cannibal who had eaten a Polish missionary”. Is that something a statesmen should say?

Go figure.
MareGaeaThreads: 45
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 Jan 31, 10, 01:23    #38
Polonius3:
Do you think that will be a problem for Polish voters?

Why would it be a problem? The guy's a politician and he married a woman he loved. How on Earth could this influence voters? Isn't his programme much more important?

>^..^<

M-G (nah)
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Edited by: pawian  Jan 31, 10, 01:26    #39
Piorun:
Do you mean those that will not for him because he is a citizen of a foreign country with foreign wife and might wonder if he would really be the best choice for Poland or what his allegiance might be? Would he really represent Poland? Is that really Anti-Semitism in your opinion?

The question about a problem for Polish voters related to his Jewish wife, not other matters. Read carefully next time.
BTW, I always like those suggestions of dubious allegiance and false representation. Remind me of a certain political party....... Do you know which? :):):):)


Perhaps we don’t want to vote for him because he is a racist, didn’t he say that “Obamas’ grandfather was a cannibal who had eaten a Polish missionary”. Is that something a statesmen should say?

Oh, come on, can`t you just take a joke? Do you have to be so dead serious? Joking like that certainly warms his image in my eyes. I prefer a president with a sense of humour than some wet blanket like Kaczyński now.

Go figure.

No, I am going to bed.
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
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Edited by: joepilsudski  Jan 31, 10, 08:42    #40
Sokrates:
Also Joe no i'm not interested if she's related to Rotschilds, just whether she did something that would make us question her?

Did I say she was related to the Rothschilds?...I said she works for the Jewish owned Washington Post, which supports all Zionist operations totally.

I made the point that the 'Economist' which is the Rothschild's magazine about finances, seems to be promoting Sikorski as a leader of the 'emergent Polish economy'. You can draw your own conclusions....Here I tied in with another thread on PF.

Wasn't George Soros also an economic consultant for Poland and Eastern Europe after Communism fell?...Wasn't his advice 'shock therapy'?...What was that about?

Will Sikorski be good for Poland?...I don't know much about him.

I am just connecting some dots...Maybe I am making a bad connection.

Just remember that the Rothschilds financed Communism in Russia, initially through their lieutenant Yacob Schiff. They were also behind the takeover in Kosovo through various functionaries such as Soros (Schwartz). They are also helping finance the '1000 Years of Jewish History' museum in Warsaw through Allianz (Insurance & Banking)...They get very interested in 'emerging economies'. Did you know that they are partners in the new Bank of China?...Or that the war in Afghanistan is being fought so they can build their pipeline through there?...Did you know the Rothschilds gave money to, and actually held a fund raiser for John McCain in London before the last US presidential election?...This is against US law, but they did it, and not a whisper was heard...They also funded Obama heavily through Soros and Goldman-Sachs...You think I am making these things up?

You know us 'conspiracy theorists'...We don't quit, right?

Anyway, maybe Apflebaum, or Applebaum as she is called in the US, will be a good Polish 'First Lady'.
BartolomeThreads: 2
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 Jan 31, 10, 10:55    #41
z_darius:
He is a native Pole.

SHE not he. One little letter makes sometimes a big difference.
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Edited by: Grzegorz_  Jan 31, 10, 11:15    #42
Polonius3:
SWorski is among those regarded as possible presidential candidates following Tusk's abandonment of the race.

Well, few people wouldn't be better than the clown Tusk... and If you look at PO's livestock with Palikot and other nuts, even Sikorski seems to be much over average.

Polonius3:
SIkorski's wife is American Jewess Anne Apfelbaum.

I couldn't care less but I'm worried that Jew controlled media will push for him only because they will treat him like one of their own...

delphiandomine:
It'll be a very easy win for him if he stands, no doubt Kaczynski will throw "JEWISH WIFE" at him and everyone else will laugh,

You've just proved that you have completely no idea about Polish politics, Kaczynskis kiss Jewish asses much more than PO does.
sylwiaThreads: -
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 Jan 31, 10, 17:58    #43
Sokrates:
Because Poland has to be run by Poles and i feel uneasy whenever people of non-polish lineage are near the nexuses of power in Poland

Then you must be sick with worry now when Donald Tusk, half-German half-Kashubian, runs Poland. :D

It doesn't matter one bit who the president's wife/husband is. She/he should just look well, speak English, and make good impression. How is it that Mrs. Kwaśniewska has such a huge support nowadays after her husband and his colleagues had nearly sold the country? She looks nice, that's all the magic!

Presidents don't run Poland, Prime Ministers do. When voters are going to learn that? President's role is mostly representative, and it will be even more so when Tusk changes the rules. President and his wife should be just a supporting couple, who can lobby well for us. Think of Queen of England, she doesn't run the country, she makes nice impression. Will Anne Applebaum, a Pulitzer prize winner and a specialist in our region's politics, or Mrs. Komorowska, a housewife, be a better lobbyist?

How Applebaum is anti-Polish and how might she influence her husband? They are a married couple as we speak, he's Poland's foreign minister, with much more influence on our foreign politics than the President has. Isn't she influencing him already? Aren't you worried?
DariuszTelkaThreads: 6
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 Jan 31, 10, 18:01    #44
vetala:
Depends which voters you have in mind.
Antisemites? Of course they will have a problem.
Normal people? Nope.

Vetala: You think that if the Polish people doesn't wote for Sikorski becasue he has a jewish wife, that makes the "non-Sikorski-voters", anti-semites? Now that is a real powerful deduction...it's the same Hitler said, "If you're not with me, you're against me". Let's see who these so-called anti-semites are...

According to Canadian conservatives...the liberals are anti-semites, the president of Harvard University says anyone boycotting Israeli goods are anti-semites, british culture is anti-semitic, Norway is anti-semitic, Sweden is anti-semitic, Denmark is anti-semitic, Poland is anti-semitic, The United Nations is anti-semitic, President Obama is an anti-semite, criticizing Israel is anti-semitic. (For links please go to the Random Thread, the Mod didn't like the links, I thought putting some facts behind my "claims" wold be good, but not this time).

And I just read an article the other day that ANYONE WHO THE JEWS DON'T LIKE, IS AN ANTI-SEMITE. Beat that!

So, Vetala...you might be an anti-semite yourself, you just don't know it yet....I know, it's scary!

Oh oh...I just found this article on the Polish bishop who claimed jews invented the holocaust...he actually doesn't hate the jews...

The Bishop is maybe not an anti semite....after all....

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/spengler/2010/01/29/did-you-hear-abou t-the-polish-anti-semite-he-liked-jews/

But check out what the blogger says down in his article about Poland and her population...

"One has to cut the Poles a bit of slack. The Jewish Holocaust belongs to the past, while Poland’s is ongoing. During the next forty years, Poland’s population will fall by over 20%".

"Why shouldn’t the Poles feel sorry for themselves? They are dying of national anomie. Israel, by contrast, has the highest fertility rate in the industrial world, at nearly 3 children per woman, vs. only 1.29 for Poland".

"Let them mourn their terrible fate. The Jewish victims of Auschwitz could pray for divine retribution; not so those who become extinct through lack of interest".

Isn't that ANTI-POLISH?? But who cares about Poland.....we're just a bunch of ANTI-SEMITES.

So for the LOVE OF GOD, please vote for Sikorski, you wouldn't want to be an anti-semite!?!?!

Dariusz
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 Jan 31, 10, 18:05    #45
sylwia:
Then you must be sick with worry now when Donald Tusk, half-German half-Kashubian, runs Poland. :D

I am, there are signs that PO has a policy thats pro-German and not exactly pro-Polish.

sylwia:
How Applebaum is anti-Polish and how might she influence her husband?

Are you a focking retard? Did i say or suggest she's anti-Polish or that she's a problem for me? No? Then shot the hell up.
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 Jan 31, 10, 18:05    #46
sylwia:
Presidents don't run Poland, Prime Ministers do.

I'll take it one further and say that the PM is just the mouthpiece of whoever is in charge in the Sejm and the Senate, which last time I checked was pretty Polish...
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Edited by: Bzibzioh  Jan 31, 10, 18:21    #47
DariuszTelka:
According to Canadian conservatives...the liberals are anti-semites

Stop banging on topics you have no clue about. Liberals were and are the federal party that has the biggest Jewish support in Canada. Since Conservatives have minority government now, they need any vote they can get. And they really have a better record on Jewish issues than Liberals ever had.

Sokrates:
Are you a focking retard?

Bad day, Sokrates?
DariuszTelkaThreads: 6
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 Jan 31, 10, 19:16    #48
Bzibzioh:
Stop banging on topics you have no clue about. Liberals were and are the federal party that has the biggest Jewish support in Canada. Since Conservatives have minority government now, they need any vote they can get. And they really have a better record on Jewish issues than Liberals ever had.

I think you misunderstood my meaning with the links and references to anti-semitism. I really don't care who's who in canadian politics or who supports who. It's the fact that ANYONE can be one! It doesn't matter if you are left, right, liberal, conservative, moderate, even jewish! So, like Vetala said, if you don't vote for Sikorski, then you are an anti-semite too...you can't win when people argue like that.

But on the topic...one shouldn't dismiss the wives that fast. Remember, they have their husbands ear, and heart. If you look at history, many a ruler has made his decisions after bedroom talk with his wife. (No links here mod...don't worry).

Especially in todays politics, the wives of prime ministers, presidents and high profile politicians, are often just as well educated, with their own careers and with their own agendas. (Hillary anyone?). It might not be the thing that comes on tv or in the press, but behind the curtains and in other matters, they can be just as important.

Dariusz
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 Jan 31, 10, 19:32    #49
DariuszTelka:
It's the fact that ANYONE can be one! It doesn't matter if you are left, right, liberal, conservative, moderate, even jewish! So, like Vetala said, if you don't vote for Sikorski, then you are an anti-semite too...you can't win when people argue like that.

You are stretching your argument unnecessarily.


Sure, some in the West media will say that not voting for Sikorski was a sign of Polish anti-semitism (as any reason is a good reason to have a dig at Poland) but those level-headed will avoid this generalization and may even praise us for open-mindedness.
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 Jan 31, 10, 19:33    #50
Sokrates:
Are you a focking retard?

Edit that...
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 Jan 31, 10, 19:38    #51
Polonius3:
Poland's Jewish first lady?

Father Director Rydzyk and the Giertych boys will have a field day with this, should make for interesting newspaper reading..
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 Jan 31, 10, 20:39    #52
Grzegorz_:
I couldn't care less but I'm worried that Jew controlled media will push for him only because they will treat him like one of their own...

I get really worried when I read such comments, because it indicates that the Jews are losing their grip on the media (especially the internet), when such comments get through unchecked ...
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 Jan 31, 10, 21:30    #53
The anti-anti-Semitism rhetoric is getting old and should be just ignored. People should vote according to their own views and not threats. It's pretty obvious.

DariuszTelka:
But on the topic...one shouldn't dismiss the wives that fast. Remember, they have their husbands ear, and heart. If you look at history, many a ruler has made his decisions after bedroom talk with his wife.

Sure, only that the President of Poland is not a ruler. He doesn't make decisions other than who should get a national award, when to meet our sports teams, and what to tell people for Christmas. In politics - he can veto the government's proposals, the Senate can outvote his veto, and there his power ends. It's more of a nuisance than any power.

In short, the President of Poland has nothing in common with the President of the US, other than the title. He's told by the government what he can or cannot do, where he should go and what he should say, and if he doesn’t comply he’s accused of betraying the national interest of the country, as we’ve seen it done in Kaczyński’s case. Poland never had a model of a strong ruler, and it's unlikely there ever will be one. We're the country of puppet kings and puppet presidents. Pacta Conventa and Henrician articles anyone?

The President of Poland is more like our media image. It's the postcard from Poland that the world gets from us. They see us the way they see our president. So let's look what postcards we have sent so far:

  • Lech Wałęsa, a stubborn electrician, without any knowledge of English, and, for those who know Polish, speaking an appalling broken Polish

  • Aleksander Kwaśniewski, who lied about his master degree, who got drunk during the celebration of our soldiers in Katyń, and who mocked the pope

  • Lech Kaczyński, with a doctorate (that's an improvement!) and a twin-brother ruling him against the government (it appears brothers are worse than wives), a homophobe, and a paranoid diplomat (that's itself a contradiction, isn’t it?)
Is it how we want people to see Poland? Because those are the postcards we send, and it shouldn’t surprise us that people often assume things about us upon such images.

So far, at best, we could hope that our Presidents wouldn’t make us an international laughing stock. There’s a sense of relief every time they come back from a foreign trip and there’s no affair accompanying their visit! Otherwise, they all, from right to left, make us cringe.

Wouldn’t it be great, for a change, to have a president who would be able to make a positive impact? Surely Sikorski, an Oxford graduate, and a good diplomat with a very good knowledge of our foreign politics, and his wife, an American (a Polish resident for some decades though) Pulitzer prize winner, would be a nice picture of Poland.

Sikorski shouldn't be an enigma to anyone. Our present position on the international scene is his achievement. And I'd say the West has viewed us with a kinder eye for the last two years. As to what kind of voice we could expect from Anne Applebaum, here’s her article to the Washington Post written after Obama had cancelled the missile defense program: Letting Europe Drift

Personally, I think that we should just elect the last Czartoryski a king. He'd be an arts patron et al. But as long as we have presidents, let's at least hold them up to some intellectual, diplomatic and cultural level.
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 Jan 31, 10, 22:35    #54
Sylwia; Thanks for the nice posting. It was a joy reading it. With my limited reading skills in Polish, sitting here in Norway with only polish propaganda TV to get my information, it's nice to get the "short version", of the politics of Poland today! I hope you will continue this...

Dariusz
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 Jan 31, 10, 22:38    #55
sylwia:
And I'd say the West has viewed us with a kinder eye for the last two years.

Interesting post, Sylwia. But on that point I'm not with you, how did you come to that conclusion?
sylwiaThreads: -
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 Feb 1, 10, 04:06    #56
Bzibzioh:
Interesting post, Sylwia. But on that point I'm not with you, how did you come to that conclusion?

Perhaps you don't remember the times of Anna Fotyga?

Yet some three years ago Poles were seen within the EU as barking puppies, whining and capricious, making troubles with Russia for no good reason. Some half a year ago Jerzy Buzek was elected the President of the European Parliament. That's some change, isn't it? Sikorski was considered as a candidate for NATO leadership.

Poland's foreign politics focus on our EU and NATO membership, and our role in EU's eastern partnership. That is we need strong NATO for our self-defence, and strong partners east to us to become independent from Russia, and, more than anything, we need to not depend on Russian energy supplies.

NATO has accepted Poland's energy security project, and EU has accepted our plan of building security and defence by implementing policy of helping to democratise and strengthen economically some eastern European and Caucasus states. That shows that Poland's difficult position vs. Russia is no longer viewed as paranoid, and that we're going to be supported in our politics.

Naturally Poland's foreign politics doesn't change. It's been the same since the times of Adam Czartoryski and Józef Piłsudski. What changes is that sometimes we're treated seriously by our Western partners and sometimes not.
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 Feb 1, 10, 05:05    #57
Well looks like polish jokes are quite accurate in regard to MOST ppl from Poland.If he get elected that is.
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 Feb 1, 10, 06:02    #58
sylwia

All are you writing about is on European arena but since I live in Canada not much of the positive changes in opinion about Poland reached our shores. US and Canada are not that closely watching Europe in general. There was something about Poland being pain in the ass about Russia in some EU gas negotiations and that's about it.

sylwia:
We're the country of puppet kings and puppet presidents. Pacta Conventa and Henrician articles anyone?

Puppet kings? Elected one mostly yes, but Piasts and Jagiellonians were OK. Some of them even great.
gumishqu  Feb 1, 10, 10:29    #59
jonni:
In Poland, the loony right and extreme 'nationalists' generally accuse every politician they don't like of being Jewish anyway. The rantings of armchair racists don't seem to affect the actual voting one iota.

Ludwik Dorn is of Jewish descent, divorced but I still have no grudges against him - but I do have some against Kwaśniewski and some other zionists and nearly zionists
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 Feb 1, 10, 10:35    #60
Bzibzioh
Don’t bad news always travel faster? :)

Bzibzioh:
Puppet kings? Elected one mostly yes, but Piasts and Jagiellonians were OK. Some of them even great.

Only one was 'great' to be exact, and he was said to be overtly influenced by his Jewish lover. Sounds familiar?

Piasts had Poland torn into pieces for over a century, while all Jagiellons were elected, only not in a popular vote yet. None of Jagiellon children was allowed to use the title of Prince, and they were the first ones to give the nobles privileges in order to have their kids elected.

But there’s nothing wrong with puppet kings and presidents. One doesn’t need them when one has a strong government. The greatest achievements of Poland, like the Nobles’ Democracy, religious toleration, freedom of conscience and speech, the Commission of National Education, the May 3 Constitution, and the elective kings where worked out by the parliament. Kings may have spectacular successes, esp. as military leaders, but no European ruler gave his people democracy, unless he had no choice.

There are many political systems, and every nation judges for itself what suits them best. But such a strong presidency like in the US wasn't possible here since renaissance, and I'd hope Poland would never want to go back to the medieval times. The government should represent the people, and no single person can do that.

Poland is nowhere singular in that. Likely everyone heard that Angela Merkel is the Chancellor of Germany, but how many people know who the President of Germany is, or even that they have a president at all?

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