Poland's supreme administrative court rules against RHD cars

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Jan 29, 10, 20:00 #31

bullfrog:

and may I ask where this strangebelief comes from?

Very basic physics: an automatic gearbox is heavier than a manual gearbox, that extra weight makes for longer stopping distances (and no manufacturers do not fit uprated brakes in cars with automatic gearboxes); the longer it takes for you to stop the less likely you are to stop in the distance available to you and hence the more likely you are to have an accident.

There's also a issue with the extra weight making the tyres slightly more likely to lose grip when cornering due to the higher forces.

And then there's the chances of skidding when using the brakes being higher than when using the gearbox to slow the car.

Simple really.

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Jan 29, 10, 20:15 #32

Hi all. I'm from Ireland (RHD) and have been driving for almost ten years now. I've drove in France, Spain, Germany, USA and a few other places with LHD cars, but I have to say by far the worst experience ever has been driving in Poland, every time I drive here. Definitely at least ten years behind as far as safety on roads is concerned. Ireland, when I was growing up had a terrible death toll on the roads(drink driving, speeding, poor infrastructure, etc) It has improved a lot, thanks in no small way thanks to the E.U. grants for better roads, but mainly because peoples attitudes towards speed and alcohol have changed for the better. But still as in any country you have idiotic people who shouldn't be allowed to drive a lawn-mower never mind a machine that can reach 200kms/hr, killing innocent careful drivers. It doesn't matter which side of the road you drive on or with what type of vehicle, it depends on YOUR actions in that vehicle. It is an unfortunate truth, there will always be accidents, but it’s up to each country to try their hardest and their best, to enforce the safest possible road traffic laws so that people can travel as safely as possible on the roads they are charging their good people taxes to use. It is very depressing/frustrating knowing how many peoples lives are destroyed by such stupid actions of others, everywhere in the world it's true. But the roads and road usage in Poland, not the side of the controls in the vehicle, need to change. And probably the most important is peoples attitudes need to change drastically, sooner rather than later!!

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Jan 29, 10, 21:01 #33

Harry:

Very basic physics: an automatic gearbox is heavier than a manual gearbox, that extra weight makes for longer stopping distances (and no manufacturers do not fit uprated brakes in cars with automatic gearboxes); the longer it takes for you to stop the less likely you are to stop in the distance available to you and hence the more likely you are to have an accident.

There's also a issue with the extra weight making the tyres slightly more likely to lose grip when cornering due to the higher forces.

And then there's the chances of skidding when using the brakes being higher than when using the gearbox to slow the car.

Simple really.

And I suppose this higher degree of safety is reflected in lower insurance premia for manual boxes? Of course not, because this is a load of codswallop!

Drivers who prefer auto boxes are usually less aggressive on the road (compare US driving and polish driving). In addition, at least on European cars, it is usually the higher end models which have auto boxes, so better brakes etc.. Last but not least, if you want to follow your weight logic, remove seats, carpets and all superfluous accessories in your car, it will be lighter!!

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Jan 29, 10, 21:07 #34

Al De Niro:

I have to say by far the worst experience ever has been driving in Poland,

Nobody will disagree with you on that one.

Al De Niro:

mainly because peoples attitudes towards speed and alcohol

This is the main problem here, like it was in Ireland.

Al De Niro:

t’s up to each country to try their hardest and their best, to enforce the safest possible road traffic laws so that people can travel as safely as possible on the roads they are charging their good people taxes to use.

I think the law against RHD has only to do with this, there are so many deaths on the roads here the authorities have to be seen to do everything within their power to stop any potential fatalities.

Al De Niro:

. It is very depressing/frustrating knowing how many peoples lives are destroyed by such stupid actions of others, everywhere in the world it's true. But the roads and road usage in Poland, not the side of the controls in the vehicle, need to change. And probably the most important is peoples attitudes need to change drastically, sooner rather than later!!

Definitely. Best post so far on this thread.

2008 = 5,4000 died on the roads in 2009 4,5000 people died on the roads.
Gazeta

And I think Ireland and Britain should change to what everyone else in our Europe are doing :p

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Jan 29, 10, 21:12 #35

Some newer research on the RHD in LHD countries:

A 2007 study by the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia found that drivers of RHD vehicles used here in B.C. are more than 40% more likely to be involved in a crash than those using "normal" left hand drive (LHD) vehicles. The risk appears to extend for the long term rather than being reduced by the driver becoming more familiar with using a right hand drive vehicle in a left hand drive environment.

source.

There seem to be few safety issues of note in regards to automatic vs. manual transmission. Lighter gear boxes can be actually worse, depending on the road condition. In Winter I prefer my car to be heavier so that it get better traction on snowy roads. Most pick-up owners will add weight over the rear axle of the their vehicles for that reason.

A view by a UK organization sees little safety advantage of manual vs automatic transmission:

Ultimately, from a safety perspective, neither automatic nor manual transmission would appear to have any decisive advantage over the other. Had it been otherwise, one would probably have displaced the other by now in general use, and insurance companies (which, after all, depend for their profitability on their ability to make relative risk assessments) would reflect the difference in their premiums. Neither of these things has happened so, if you are pondering which transmission type you would like to have in your next vehicle, there is probably no need for you to be unduly concerned with the safety implications of your choice.

source

An increasing number of truck in the US are switched to autmoatic transmission. One of the main reasons cited is better safety.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jan 29, 10, 21:19 #36
bullfrog: And I suppose this higher degree of safety is reflected in lower insurance premia for manual boxes? No it isn't: because the difference is so slight. But the simple fact remains: heavier weight = longer stopping distance = more chance of getting into an accident. End of story.

bullfrogThreads: 4 Posts: 390 Joined: Apr 23, 09 ♂	Jan 29, 10, 21:25 #37
Harry: But the simple fact remains: heavier weight = longer stopping distance = more chance of getting into an accident. End of story. Using the same logic, it should be the Maluches and Fiat 500 of this world who have a reputation for safety, not the heavier Volvos or Mercedes...

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Edited by: SeanBM Jan 29, 10, 21:36 #38

z_darius:

There seem to be few safety issues of note in regards to automatic vs. manual transmission...In Winter I prefer my car to be heavier so that it get better traction on snowy roads.

Also on icy roads, I am of the opinion that manual is a must and every winter it snows here.
You have better control for stopping and accelerating (gearing down and up).

bullfrog:

Using the same logic, it should be the Maluches and Fiat 500 of this world who have a reputation for safety, not the heavier Volvos or Mercedes...

Maluchs are a fraction of the weight of Mercedes.
On the other hand small cars are probably better for cities as they tend not to go so fast as those buggers in the BMWs or Audis (yeah you know who :op

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Edited by: z_darius Jan 29, 10, 21:47 #39

Harry:

But the simple fact remains: heavier weight = longer stopping distance = more chance of getting into an accident.

Actually the story is not as simple.
Heavier weight adds friction between the tires and the road. So a small increase in weight is likely canceled by a small increase in traction.

Of course this argument will matter only if the MT vehicles are indeed lighter than AT ones. Apparently that is not always true.

In the case of 2010 Toyota Corolla the curb weights are as follows:
Automatic T curb weight: 2745
Manual T curb weight: 2877

Also, vehicle's stopping distance is just one of the many factors in road safety.

SeanBM:

Also on icy roads, I am of the opinion that manual is a must and every winter it snows here.
You have better control for stopping and accelerating (gearing down and up).

Generally true, but that can be approximated with an automatic transmission by downshifting too. I drive mostly an AT vehicle but I use lower gears (when needed) on snowy roads with a higher than usual slope. I will also do it under conditions of extended breaking distance when there is a risk of skidding. I downshift in those cases.

Winter tires also help a great deal.

szarlotkaThreads: 14 Posts: 3,349 Joined: Feb 20, 07 ♂	Jan 29, 10, 21:56 #40
SeanBM: fast as those buggers in the BMWs or Audis (yeah you know who : I'll have you know I'm a very responsible driver..... <makes note to drive through the puddles close to kerb and splash SeanBM at the bus stop sometime soon>

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Edited by: SeanBM Jan 29, 10, 22:28 #41

z_darius:

I will also do it under conditions of extended breaking distance when there is a risk of skidding.

Yep, that's it.
I had an automatic with cruse control and it was good for long distances in the sun but I find the control of the manual better for up hill (where I live) and when going too fast it offers more than just the break.

Although in fairness I am more used to a manual.

szarlotka:

splash

Splash? Shards of ice more like, although we are had a heatwave today, 0 in Krakow and about minus 5 today :)

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: Harry Jan 29, 10, 23:23 #42
bullfrog: Using the same logic, it should be the Maluches and Fiat 500 of this world who have a reputation for safety, not the heavier Volvos or Mercedes... Perhaps you should compare like to like? If two cars are identical, the lighter one will stop faster. Manual gearboxes are usually lighter than autos. So if the only difference is the gearbox, the lighter car (i.e. the manual) stops faster.

AmathystThreads: 30 Posts: 3,968 Joined: Nov 10, 06 ♀	Jan 29, 10, 23:34 #43
z_darius: Also, vehicle's stopping distance is just one of the many factors in road safety. Im really glad you mentioned that, Ive had my bros car for the week and some prick nearly rear ended me yesterday..guess what plates he had????????????

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 04:48 #44
Amathyst: Ive had my bros car for the week and some prick nearly rear ended me yesterday Nearly rear ended? So the bottom line is nobody rear ended you. What's the difference what plates were on all the cars that did not rear end yours on that day?

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Jan 30, 10, 11:00 #45

SeanBM:

Right hand drives in a left hand drive country are too dangerous for overtaking.

Only when on bendy stretches, on a straight run by keeping your distance its quite safe.
I have been driving to Poland through the continent since 1990 with no such problems.

dnz:

The accident rate in Poland is simply down to the incompetent idiots they let on the roads and nothing to do with which side they drive on.

I absolutely agree with this quote, plus the rest of your post.

MOTORING CODE:

This is what the Poles lack. I have waited to pull out onto a main road until some 50 cars have passed with not one giving way. What arrogance !

On traveling a 3 - 5km straight stretch and being tail gated, the Polish motorist decides to overtake me on approaching the last 100metres when a bend is coming up. Regardless of the road signs and double white lines. Do they know the highway code ?

Not to mention,

Harry:

Driving stupidly fast is perfectly accepted by Polish society and drink driving isn't much frowned on.

Are these people for real ? Speeding and drink driving accepted ?
Try asking that to the families of those victim to such fatalities. Ignorance !

Scenario; Empty road and the Polish motorist overtakes you, cuts in front, reduces his speed in ratio to yours: Was it worth overtaking ? Whats the point ? Was it, just to be the one in front ? What kind of mentality is that ?

They simply have no road usage ethics or courtesy. If I were the Polish transport minister, I would certainly make passing the Polish driving test more stringent. I would also look into driving licenses that may have been fraudulently purchased in the past.

If you have competent drivers, regardless of what the drive side the vehicle has, you have safe motoring.

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Jan 30, 10, 12:48 #46

Honest George:

If I were the Polish transport minister, I would certainly make passing the Polish driving test more stringent.

It's tough enough, but what I'd do is simply equip a few unmarked police cars with video cameras. Up the penalties (based on income and the value of the car, maybe?) for idiotic driving and introduce on the spot bans for clearly dangerous moves and voila - driving standards would massively improve overnight.

The problem in Poland isn't so much the driving test, as the fact that the punishments are just too weak to deal with the majority of bad driving. If people knew that tailgating was instantly punishable with a 5000zl fine, they'd think twice.

bullfrogThreads: 4 Posts: 390 Joined: Apr 23, 09 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 13:04 #47
delphiandomine: If people knew that tailgating was instantly punishable with a 5000zl fine, they'd think twice. It already exists delphiandomine: what I'd do is simply equip a few unmarked police cars with video cameras Might help a little but won't solve the issue. Part of the pb is culture and character, Poles are impulsive and spontaneous, and that translates unfortunately on the roads...

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Jan 30, 10, 13:19 #48

bullfrog:

It already exists

Hardly enforced though. I'm sure people would be thinking twice if they knew that a 5000zl fine combined with an instant ban from the road was in force.

bullfrog:

Might help a little but won't solve the issue. Part of the pb is culture and character, Poles are impulsive and spontaneous, and that translates unfortunately on the roads...

I think at least part of the problem is associated with the attitude that "rules are made by the authority and we don't like authority" - there sadly exists very little respect for the rule of law in Poland, unless the law is standing in front of you.

Honest GeorgeThreads: 2 Posts: 121 Joined: Nov 12, 09 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 14:00 #49
delphiandomine: I think at least part of the problem is associated with the attitude that "rules are made by the authority and we don't like authority" - there sadly exists very little respect for the rule of law in Poland, unless the law is standing in front of you. Here here, I second that !!!

bullfrogThreads: 4 Posts: 390 Joined: Apr 23, 09 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 14:02 #50
Honest George: Here here, I second that !!! Hear, hear!

TrevekThreads: 33 Posts: 2,155 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	Jan 30, 10, 18:01 #51
So, if it is a collector's item you need to get it 'changed'? I don't see that LHD matter to many Polish drivers, cos they overtake in the face of on-coming traffic when they CAN see it in their LHD. In fact, I think all Audis should be RHD because they drive on the left most of the time anyway!

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