Poles are able to forgive their enemies - how noble.

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Sep 27, 11, 01:11 #31
Many Poles haven't forgiven the Germans or Russians Somebody should wake them up and tell them that WW2 has ended 66 years ago. will Americans ever forget 9/11?

rockThreads: 6 Posts: 1,493 Joined: Jun 13, 08 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 01:24 #32
will Americans ever forget 9/11? It is difficult to forget this tragedy. But who was the enemy ? Whom they will forgive ?

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,858 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 01:30 #33
will Americans ever forget 9/11? why? what for? the civilians who lost close people not, but the us admin is using that in their purpose. to reign with fear and lead a lets say very pragmantic foreign policy. It is difficult to forget this tragedy. what tragedy? one could also say that the us admin sacrified lives to achieve sth. ever thought that way?

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Sep 27, 11, 01:43 #34
will Americans ever forget 9/11 Will they still moan and whinge about it 70 years from now, or will they simply move on? I tell you what has happened: everyone remembers the tragedy, but nobody is talking about "forgiving" here.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 09:29 #35
It's somehow easier to forgive your own govt than that of others.

♀

Sep 27, 11, 09:58 #36

Somebody should wake them up and tell them that WW2 has ended 66 years ago.

The war may have ended,but I can assure you,the effects of it haven't. The scares from the brutality that was inflicted have been passed down from one generation to the next. 66 years ago- depending on your age is one or two genetations ago (my grandparents) and Poland has just begun to heal....after the Germans it was the Russians- Freedom is still new,the wall fell in 1989.

And don't forget the other part of the Lord's prayer

Taketh they camera
maketh sure that thy taketh a photograth,
to showeth to the rest of the world
Be sure to stroketh thy vanity once in a while
So that the world seeth what a good person you are.

Vanity of Vanities.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Love it!! LOL!!

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Sep 28, 11, 17:52 #37
Somebody should wake them up and tell them that WW2 has ended 66 years ago. actually, it never ended.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Sep 28, 11, 18:00 #38
actually, it never ended. It ended in mid-August 1945 after the Emperor of Japan issued the imperial rescript accepting the terms of the Potsdam Treaty and hostilities legally ceased after acts of parliament by the major combatant nations in 1951.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Sep 28, 11, 18:07 #39
It ended in mid-August 1945 after the Emperor of Japan issued the imperial rescript accepting the terms of the Potsdam Treaty and hostilities legally ceased after acts of parliament by the major combatant nations in 1951. Thanks for opinion but, it didn`t end. It even started much before it was officially declared

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Sep 28, 11, 18:41 #40
It even started much before it was officially declared Some date it from the invasion of Manchuria but this is hair splitting. It started 1/9/39 and ended 15/8/45.

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Sep 28, 11, 18:43 #41
JonnyM It started 1/9/39 and ended 15/8/45. Although Hiroo Onoda might have views to the contrary.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Sep 28, 11, 18:45 #42
I remember one of those guys coming out of the jungle. There were rumours about some still being there but I suppose they'd be dead by now.

♂

Edited by: pawian Apr 5, 12, 23:50 #43

"The struggle, reconciliation and friendship" - is part of the title of the exhibition, which is 30 August 2002 opened in the Municipal Cultural Centre in Gniezno. Exhibitions devoted to the history of friendship between two pilots, who many years ago, the first day of a stormy September, met in the sky as mortal enemies.

The protagonists of the exhibition presented in Gniezno were two pilots, who on the first day of September 1939 met the sky as mortal enemies. Wladyslaw Gnys and Frank Neubert - because they Sept. 1 took part in air battle over the Malopolska - many years after the war they met again. Two former enemies joined friendship that lasted until his death. Just about this friendship, for reconciliation, but also the nightmare years of the war assembled the exhibition in Gniezno.

[........]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1310653616/Rough+transla tion+of+Story+of+the+Gnys-Neubert+exhibit+in+Gniezno+Poland

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_Gnyś

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,858 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Apr 15, 12, 18:28 #44
forgive yes, forget no. that's a good principle...

♂

Edited by: Trevek Apr 16, 12, 23:23 #45

pawian:

Quite noble of Wałęsa. Or not?

Well, their daughters are good friends, aren't they?

A friend of mine was a British paratrooper (he was English). He fought at Arnhem. After the war he was captured by the Russians, hiking across red Germany and spent 7 years in gulag.

A few years ago, he told me of riding his motorbike over to Arnhem and partying with some other veterans. I asked if they were fellow paras... "Some, but most were Waffen SS... what a great bunch of lads!"

Funny thing was, he'd never work on a communist vehicle (he was a mechanic) or even ride a communist built motorcycle to the day he died.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Apr 28, 12, 22:23 #46
Trevek: Well, their daughters are good friends, aren't they? Didn`t hear about it. Tried to google it but got nothing. Trevek: A few years ago, he told me of riding his motorbike over to Arnhem and partying with some other veterans. I asked if they were fellow paras... "Some, but most were Waffen SS... what a great bunch of lads!" Life.... :):):):)

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,188 Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂	Edited by: wildrover Apr 28, 12, 23:13 #47
My father had many friends from the Afrika korps... Back in 1942 they were doing their best to kill each other... I agree with what somebody else already said... Forgive yes... but to forget is to let it happen again...

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Edited by: pawian Apr 29, 12, 00:00 #48
wildrover: My father had many friends from the Afrika korps... Back in 1942 they were doing their best to kill each other... German and British etc veterans could easily become friends because, despite being enemies, they had treated each other as equal. Germans didn`t plan to erase the British nation from the surface of the earth. They only wanted to dominate.

p3undoneThreads: 10 Posts: 345 Joined: Jan 12, 12 ♂ [Moderator]	Apr 29, 12, 05:00 #49
Paiwan,How are Russian/Polish relations today,both politically and people to people?Did the Smolensk crash promulgate alienation?

♂

Edited by: Meathead Apr 29, 12, 06:48 #50

hague1cmaeron:

Well I suppose it is not, and well done to him for doing so. However a true Christian gesture would be to reconcile with him and not tell anyone about it.

No, it had to be publicized. These two are public figures, Walesa's gesture was to bury the hatchet not just between those two but the entire Polish Nation.

LwowskaKrakow:

Poland was not a Communist country by choice but Communist Invaded so maybe that's why Poles tend to forgive Jaruzelski and did not send him to rot in jail like the French did with Marechal Petain.

Nonsense, there was plenty of political support in Poland for Communism. In the 1940's Communism was considered a viable political philosophy. If Poland was as anti-communist as you suggest they would have accepted the Marshall Plan.

pgtx:

will Americans ever forget 9/11?

As long as they can make money off of 911 for Homeland security and wars it won't be forgotten.

♂ [Moderator]

Apr 29, 12, 10:08 #51

Meathead, I don't make war or profit from 911,but I promise you I won't forget.It was burned in my memory as well as many other Americans who just live out they're lives.That's kind of a crude thing for you to say.Please don't throw all Americans
in the same category as the powerful politicians and the Moguls.The situation is no different here then it is anywhere when
it comes to how people deal with horror thrown upon them,whether It was 11yrs. or 70yrs.ago.

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,858 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Apr 29, 12, 10:11 #52
p3undone: how people deal with horror thrown upon them what kind of horror? i know that other explanations for those 'attacks' are put aside as some sort of consiracy theories, BUT looking back and considering the today's politics of the us admin there might be more than truth in it that there was a scenario selfmade and used afterwards... what do you think about that?

♂

Apr 29, 12, 12:57 #53

pawian:

German and British etc veterans could easily become friends because, despite being enemies, they had treated each other as equal. Germans didn`t plan to erase the British nation from the surface of the earth. They only wanted to dominate.

I agree , the desert war was very civilised , just opposing forces doing battle , no partisans , no death squads , no Gestapo...

Very different from what was happening in Poland and the rest of Europe...

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,858 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Apr 29, 12, 13:56 #54
wildrover: I agree , the desert war was very civilised , just opposing forces doing battle , no partisans , no death squads , no Gestapo... Very different from what was happening in Poland and the rest of Europe... ww2 was the biggest systematic slaughtering ever started by one nation based on bs race ideology.

♂

Apr 30, 12, 00:05 #55

wildrover:

the desert war was very civilised

I have the diary entry for a young British Pilot in the desert airforce,he'd had german friends before the war but he still writes quite casually about bouncing a convoy of german soldiers in trucks and blowing up 3 before anyone had a chance to get out,by the third pass nobody was moving from a convoy of a dozen trucks. He and one other 20 something lad had just killed hundreds of 20 something german lads.
I agree with sascha, nothing clean about any part of WW2.

♂

Apr 30, 12, 00:31 #56

I agree , but in comparison with the war in Russia , the desert war was played by the rules...

My father tells of how they would fight during the day , then pack up as the sun went down...if you bumped into the enemy at night , you would just pretend not to notice them...

My father said it went downhill after the Americans joined in.... They started firing at the Germans at night , and the Germans naturally responded....

My father was in the tanks... on one operation their tank got hit , several crew wounded , and they were on their own...

A few hours later a German column showed up..they treated all the wounded , gave the English crew food and water , and then went on their way after wishing them luck.... they had no time to take prisoners...

Can,t imagine that scenario in Russia...

♂ [Moderator]

Apr 30, 12, 05:37 #57

Sascha,interesting that you would ask what kind of Horror.So Americans die in in a horrific tragedy and I should evaluate conspiracies
and if true, they lessen the horrors for the families and the people who went through it.And this would justify a blanket statement about
Americans as a people?We can go into all kinds of conspiracy theories across the board.So what I think about it is of little importance.
I myself won't forget,does that mean I have to be all consumed by it?No.

♂

Apr 30, 12, 15:58 #58

p3undone:

So what I think about it is of little importance.
I myself won't forget,does that mean I have to be all consumed by it?No.

your standpoint as an individual like in so many societies is not important.

if you say horror, think about the families of the 17 victims killed by is yankee lunatic just recently. oh yeah, only 17, but look up how many lives the war cost until now, or let's go to vitenam, where families until today suffer from us chemical bombs used there. is anybody asking them for their 'horror'?

in the big picture there is enough suffering and that 9/11 theatre is not done yet, just a good reason for the admin to play police around the globe and cut your personal freedom wherever they can. think about that too.

poles are cool people. met many of them for many many years and even that germans were the biggest mess up, i never had a problem. that's the slavic soul noone will understand.

♂ [Moderator]

Apr 30, 12, 22:21 #59

Yes I know blame all the American people,It surely couldn't be our government,And we sure don't have the right to grieve for our citizens
Let's not forget all the merchants from different countries who partook in Vietnam.For somebody who opposes the death penalty you
sure don't mind the death of American citizens.oh yeah that's right that couldn't be because as you said yourself killing isn't justified
for any reason no matter what you say.Even if children are raped and murdered.now here's the part where you mention of how the
American government sanctioned other atrocities.And I'm ashamed that no American citizens opposed the Vietnam war or any other
war or military action for that matter and we don't feel affected by any other horrors in the world.And I'm especially ashamed of
how everyone of our college and university students staunchly supported all these actions.I love the double standards you cherish
Sascha lol.My opinions I'm sure is not nearly as important as yours are to the world governments who perpetuate this elimination of
personal freedoms through subterfuge,agent provocateurs and globalization.I personally think that yank should pay the ultimate price.think about that Sascha. .

♂

Apr 30, 12, 22:32 #60

p3, your comment shows only to me that you dont see the bigger picture. maybe one day you will. those comparisments you use are only funny, nothing else.
they show to me only that YOU use double standards, a wide spread style in western world.
i have no double standard at all. of course i feel sorry for EVERY lost life, the point is only how it came that far and how is the particular admin explaining that, sorry sells that.
just one stupid example. us went to libya because of human catastrophe, right?
they went there because of oil. so they killed civilians and soldiers for profit. that's ok? that country is ruined for the next 2-3 generations.
egypt. arabian spring. now ther will be elections where the muslim fundamentals probably get the price. life lost for another totalitarian regime? what did they achieve?
afghanistan. endless war, fights etc. loss of life without any real reason...beside strategy for us.
irak...vietnam...what more???
i condemn every lost life. it seems that the human generation is going backwards. to the middle ages. we fight for oil, next will be water, what then? the most aggressive will survive, maybe...
i dont think that this circle will last forever.

us has that many problems, internally and externally that there is few time to correct it all...time for a change, a REAL change has come...think about that. :)

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