Polish elite more pro-US than society?

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Aug 17, 10, 15:50 #1

All post-PRL Polish political options (even the post-commies - Olejniczak, Napieralski, Miller, Kwaśniewski, Belka, Nałęcz, Borowski, etc.) have been more pro-American than most other EU countries and seem more so than today's average grass-roots Poles. In his first presidentialb address, Komorowski first of all mentioned Poland's startegic alliance with the US.
Since Poland joined the EU, the US is no longer the magnet for bread-seekers it once was. In the British Isles Poles can work legally without the humiliating visa requriements, the hot breath of the ' imigrejsin' on their necks or the threat of round-ups ('łapanki') of illegal workers and deportation. Plus the shorter distance decreases travel costs and enables them to keep in touch with family and friends in Poland.
Is this a favourable development? Who is the winner and loser in the situation? Will the decline of former American myths (land of opportunity where everything is possible, freedom and prosperity, streets paved with gold, etc.) tarnish America's image in the long run? Co o tym sądzisz?

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Aug 17, 10, 15:58 #2

I never understood the Polish slavish (sorry, no pun intended) admiration for the yanks. The way you support them everywhere in the world (Iraq, Afghanistan, Missile shield, CIA prisons and torture). Without any critical noise.
And for what? Still you need some measly US embassy official to approve your visa application.
You get outdated retired C-130's. F-16's which on the way to Poland break down.
So why are you doing it?
It is time some people in Poland - PIS - accept that Poland is a part of Europe historically, culturally, socially and economically...
Part of the EU.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 16:00 #3
sobieski: It is time some people in Poland - PIS - accept that Poland is a part of Europe historically, culturally, socially and economically... Part of the EU. I guess it might have something to do with hosting a huge Polish diaspora and never having f*cked Poland over in any military alliances.

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,143 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	Aug 17, 10, 18:58 #4
You mean like in every conference in WWII, Roosevelt was betraying Poland. Churchill not being able to stop that?

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Aug 17, 10, 19:49 #5

Well technically, Polish loyalty should be to the EU first (since Poland is a member by its own choice) and then the US (since Poland is not and will not be a US state or territory).

Historically, Poland has never been badly burned by a US government (at least any time the US left Poland down, other countries were doing worse).

Also, the Polish political elite's interest in the US probably has a lot to do with traditional, though unofficial, US policy of paying off pliable leaders (the old 'he's an sob, but he's our sob policy). I don't think they realize that a) it only works when there's a credible threat against US interests in play b) there's a split between pro and anti US politicians.

I've noticed definite changes in attitudes among university students toward the US over my time here so far. It was never overtly hostile but it was pretty indifferent for a few years after joining the EU. Recently there seems to have been an uptick in interest but not really as a political model or place to live, just more on a sightseeing or cultural basis.

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Aug 18, 10, 17:28 #6

sobieski:

You mean like in every conference in WWII, Roosevelt was betraying Poland. Churchill not being able to stop that?

US was never in an alliance with Poland, nothing was owed. Churchill on the other hand represented a government that was in a military alliance with Poland.

The US provides Poland with a balance to the EU. When you become dependent on a single daddy, that daddy has a tendency to screw you over..

jedenThreads: - Posts: 297 Joined: Nov 30, 09 ♂	Aug 18, 10, 18:04 #7
"Well technically, Polish loyalty should be to" the better ally first. USA is more powerfull than EU. We have some interests ther and here in Europe. But as far as military issue EU is weak.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Aug 18, 10, 18:35 #8
convex: The US provides Poland with a balance to the EU. When you become dependent on a single daddy, that daddy has a tendency to screw you over.. What balance?

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Aug 18, 10, 20:36 #9
Bratwurst Boy: What balance? read above comment. a strong relationship with the US provides Poland with a bargaining chip

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Aug 18, 10, 20:48 #10

Bratwurst Boy:

What balance?

USA has interests in making Poland militarily stronger through technology transfer/investment. This is because the Ruskis have been becoming more belligerent in the last 5 years or so. America must have interest in Poland in order not to lose influence in Europe. The American presence will create more of a balance in the sense that German a'ssholes and Russians will not be dictating everything. Remember that Germans (Austrians too) have been cozying up to Russia in the last little while.

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Aug 18, 10, 21:38 #11
rychlik: The American presence will create more of a balance in the sense that German a'ssholes and Russians will not be dictating everything. Sure, they will sell Poland some crappy toys (read: weapons) and drop her like a hot potato whenever it suits them. Poland wouldn't be the first country to receive that "special treatment", so she'd better stay close to her partners in the EU instead.

kondziorThreads: 2 Posts: 441 Joined: Oct 16, 09 ♂	Aug 19, 10, 22:32 #12
I like Americans. They can be iritating sometimes and this constant smiling thing of theirs freaks me out, but they are not mean. They can be trusted most of the time (within reasonable boundaries, if not too much money is at stake). They'll wont cheat you just for fun of it. Contrary to Russians.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Aug 19, 10, 23:25 #13
Who should Poles like, USA is closes to polish ideal of state, they would like to be USA themselves .....

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Aug 19, 10, 23:27 #14
Ironside: they would like to be USA themselves ..... hmmm... i recommend you reading Polish news everyday...

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Aug 19, 10, 23:29 #15
pgtx: i recommend you reading Polish news everyday... what for ? Polish news aren't interesting

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Aug 19, 10, 23:30 #16
Ironside: Polish news aren't interesting just like you :)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Aug 19, 10, 23:33 #17
pgtx: just like you :) matter of opinion :P as I met the witch of ol’river town. and she said flatly, I’m a fake, but theys still hung er an threw er in the lake.

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Aug 19, 10, 23:51 #18

rychlik:

America must have interest in Poland in order not to lose influence in Europe. The American presence will create more of a balance in the sense that German a'ssholes and Russians will not be dictating everything. Remember that Germans (Austrians too) have been cozying up to Russia in the last little while.

I guess that US&A has enough under their control in Europe/EU. Their interests there are secured.

Btw, u canadian plunker, in EU nobody is dictating anything but following what's been said. A little bit cuddling with the russian bear was never for disadvantage. ;-)

Ironside:

Who should Poles like, USA is closes to polish ideal of state, they would like to be USA themselves .....

Why so?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 20, 10, 01:39 #19
Interesting opinion: U.S. role in Poland shrinking http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/16/Frum.poland.us/index.html?ir ef=allsearch#fbid=-Y5yVj4dJCE&wom=false

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,834 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Aug 20, 10, 16:10 #20
If the US role in Poland is shrinking, then whose is expanding? Germany's? The EU's? Russia's? Israel's? China's? Somebody else's? How to you envisage things in 5, 10 or 15 years from now?

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Aug 20, 10, 16:17 #21

sobieski:

I never understood the Polish slavish (sorry, no pun intended) admiration for the yanks

Maybe it has sth to do with the fact that Poles consider the US the winner of the Cold War and has as such liberated from he hated system that has yoked them for decades? It's normal for ppl who have been terrorized by one group to run to the other group once liberated from them. This might explain also Poland's eagerness to join the NATO, EU and the like.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 20, 10, 16:21 #22

Polonius3:

If the US role in Poland is shrinking, then whose is expanding? Germany's? The EU's? Russia's? Israel's? China's? Somebody else's?

The EU's role of course.

In another 20 years Poland will be even more connected and immersed with the other memberstates.
Also in 20 years Poland will (hopefully) having grown out of the developing phase and fully taken over responsibilities as one of the more active core countries, that also furthers commitment.

Should there really happen a groundbreaking event like a split between the north and the south, Poland will be part of the northern EU. Even more tight.

The US will have to fight with their own problems in the mean time, not being able nor willing to spend so much energy on other continents. They will be glad if the EU is still an ally (as we should be).

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Aug 20, 10, 16:35 #23

Polonius3:

If the US role in Poland is shrinking, then whose is expanding? Germany's? The EU's? Russia's? Israel's? China's? Somebody else's? How to you envisage things in 5, 10 or 15 years from now?

Ploes should realise that the USA doesn't give a **** about its allies. Its interest only extends to expaning/defending its world power. For instance, if Poland could be used to damage Russia it would be fine; the affect on poland itself would be irrelevant. Polands protection from Russia would come from NATO, not the USA. British Nukes would be as essential defense as the USA's - if the US had to decide whether to risk US cities getting nuked to protect Poland, they would sell poland down the river just as they did before.

mafketis:

Historically, Poland has never been badly burned by a US government (at least any time the US left Poland down, other countries were doing worse).

Tell me when the US has done anything to help poland?

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Aug 20, 10, 16:46 #24

Wilson's 13th point helped resurrect Poland, as did Hoover's post-WWI relief mission. Roosevelt sold Poland down the river, but Radio Free Europe and VOA in the Truman, Eisnehower and later epriods helped keep Poles' hope alive. Ford's gaffe claimed Poland was not under Soviet domination. Reagan and Bush senior have all but been canonised in Poland for their support of Solidarność and pro-independence activities. Bush junior and Obama have been disappointing (visa requirements, reneging on the missile shield). So it has been a chequered picture all in all.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Aug 20, 10, 16:57 #25
peterweg: Ploes should realise that the USA doesn't give a **** about its allies. When has the US broken a military alliance? Every country is in it for their own self interest...Poland included. That's why they sent troops to the desert.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Aug 21, 10, 00:22 #26
sascha: Why so? American individualistic and competitive culture is very agreeable to Poles. I-S(This was the noblest Roman of them all)

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,858 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Aug 21, 10, 00:42 #27
Ironside: American individualistic and competitive culture is very agreeable to Poles. Quote: In 2007, 88.4% of the population belonged to the Catholic Church. That's not quite matching, catholic church and competition. I guess it's all about $$$$$$$$$$

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Aug 21, 10, 00:54 #28
sascha: I guess it's all about $$$$$$$$$$ not all, there is something in USA that appeals to Poles .....on the other hand, individual Russian are great but as a state Russia simply is instinctual detestable for average Pole (and I'm not talking history)

Pinching PeteThreads: 1 Posts: 1,111 Joined: Feb 23, 08 ♂	Aug 21, 10, 03:15 #29
peterweg: Tell me when the US has done anything to help poland? Well.. it's made quite a few of them (or their children) fairly successful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_Americans

JulietEchoThreads: 3 Posts: 129 Joined: Jul 14, 08 ♂	Aug 22, 10, 01:10 #30
Luckily this one sided love affair is coming to an definite end... NATO alliance has only gotten Poland involved in unwanted wars. US is in downward spiral both economically and culturally and in 20 years it will only be another overpopulated country in Latin America. I just hope that Canada prevails.

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