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Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash


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KonradGBThreads: -
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 Nov 20, 11, 01:05    #421
.

Gen.A.Blasik

Similarly, the Polish side was not in the position to respond to Finding 3.1.68 of the IAC Final Report that the Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Air Forces General Andrzej Blasik was present in the cockpit at the time of the impact with the ground. Furthermore, the Polish Side was not in the position to respond to the statement that the coronary examination revealed 0.6‰ of ethanol in the blood of the Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Air Forces. Results of testing the concentration of alcohol in the blood of the Polish Air Force Commander Blasik cannot be independently verified because of the unavailability of the source documentation. No authorized toxicological data and information as to when and how the material was secured foranalysis was provided to the Polish side.6



6 The Polish Response in English, p. 143. In January 2011 IAC published on its website a document nr. 37
dated April 11, 2010 that purportedly represents testing of Gen. Błasik's blood. Medical experts point out that a natural alcohol is produced in the body within 24 hours from death and can reach even 1 percent. Therefore other tests are required to verify such findings. However the Russian side did not produce any other tests and did not present supporting documents.
See also:
www.rp.pl/artykul/593062_Ekspert--Blasik-niekoniecznie-pil.html and www.naszdziennik.pl/index.php?dat=20110131&typ=po&id=po51.txt
http://www.naszdziennik.pl/index.php?dat=20110115&typ=po&id=po02.txt

wildroverThreads: 180
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Edited by: wildrover  Nov 20, 11, 01:46    #422
So what does this report think happened then....?

the wing jumped off by itself...?

the Russians sawed if off after the crash...?



Can you imagine a future flight to Russia... in bad weather....?

IGOR... we have a flight requesting permission to land....

VLADIMIR...so what... give them permission...

IGOR.. Its a Polish aircraft...!

VLADIMIR...OH ******** Tell them we are closed , tell them i am ill ...we can,t take the flight...they will crash and then blame us...

IGOR... Lets pull all the radio wires out...we can say mice did it....!
SeanusThreads: 22
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 Nov 20, 11, 15:30    #423
There should be an open hearing in the form of a conciliation/mediation tribunal. If nobody has anything to hide then what's the problem?
pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  Mar 11, 12, 13:37    #424
New facts surface all the time:

Wikileaks – 'Russia tried to prevent Kaczynski landing in Smolensk'
09.03.2012 13:41
The email– released by the Wikileaks whistle blowing web site as part of its Global Intelligence Files series - shows a former KGB officer recruited by the Americans thought the Russians deliberately tried to stop President Kaczynski landing in Smolensk.
Smolensk air traffic control told the plane it was unsafe to land due to heavy fog, but the plane eventually tried to land at the airport in western Russian, however, killing all 96 on board.
But the secret email released by Wikileaks, sent by iphone to Reva Bhalla, director of analysis at the global intelligence company Stratfor Forecasting Inc, from Fred Burton, the company's vice-director of counter intelligence on 24 April 2010, quotes a former KGB agent, 'Comrade J'.
Comrade J told Stratfor, a company once described as a 'shadow CIA': “The Russians purposefully denied the aircraft the ability to land knowing that the Polish President would either force the pilot to land […] or the plane would return and not land at the location.”
Another Stratfor officer, Marko Papic, is also quoted as saying: “This was actually one of the theories that one of my contacts also gave me. But the intention was not to kill Kacynzki [sic] just make his life difficult by forcing him to land in Minsk and therefore miss the Katyn Massacre ceremonies set to begin in an hour from landing. But instead, the pilots tried to land anyways and crashed the flight.”


More
http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/92767,Wikileaks-%E2%80%93-Russia-tr ied-to-prevent-Kaczynski-landing-in-Smolensk
aphrodisiacThreads: 22
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 Mar 11, 12, 14:04    #425
pawian:
“This was actually one of the theories that one of my contacts also gave me.

yah, a theory. Have you seen the NIK report re: the flight to Smolensk?

Also, why did they allow the airplane with the journalists to land?
czarThreads: 4
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Edited by: czar  Mar 16, 12, 04:36    #426
so this commander J, is he speculating or was involved at the time, someone told him or her...they said he was interviewed at a nuclear conference by intelligence officers.
http://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/382437_re-comrade-j-on-polish-plane- crash-.html

aphrodisiac:
Also, why did they allow the airplane with the journalists to land?

exactly, why did they allow the airplane with the journalists to land and not the presidents plane? ;)
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Mar 16, 12, 09:40    #427
czar:
exactly, why did they allow the airplane with the journalists to land and not the presidents plane? ;)


They didn't. The YAK-40 pilots were/are being prosecuted for this - they did not receive landing clearance at Smolensk-North (and - given the conditions which they reported, there was absolutely no way they could have received it) and made an incredibly risky landing.

The mystery, which will probably never be explained, is why they went below their minimums. But - when humans are concerned, they make mistakes under pressure.

The psychological analysis in the Russian report makes for interesting reading - they hammer home the point that the captain was under immense stress at the time, and such a mistake could easily be made. It doesn't forgive the dreadful breaking of endless rules by the PAF, but it goes a long way to explain why he did what he did.
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 Mar 16, 12, 18:47    #428
in that case, then why didnt the yak pilot crash under stress?
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Mar 16, 12, 20:52    #429
czar:
in that case, then why didnt the yak pilot crash under stress?


That's a strange thing to say.

Humans do tend to react differently under stress. Bear in mind that the Captain of the TU-154M didn't have his licence at the time of the flight.
czarThreads: 4
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Edited by: czar  Mar 17, 12, 04:41    #430
wasnt the airport closed, not cleared for landing?

except it was open for Tusk to land?

so was it closed due to weather or because it was decommissioned?

thanks
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 Mar 17, 12, 06:01    #431
czar:
wasnt the airport closed, not cleared for landing?

dude, where have you been? Read the reports and draw your own conclusions. Links are in the very first post in this thread.
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 Mar 17, 12, 10:19    #432
czar:
wasnt the airport closed, not cleared for landing?


No. The airport was open. Some people have clung desperately to the concept that the Russians are to blame for not closing the airport, but the facts do not change - the plane was only cleared to 100m. The Tupolev had its own minimums, which allowed them to descend only to 130m.

czar:
except it was open for Tusk to land?


Different day.

czar:
so was it closed due to weather or because it was decommissioned?


It wasn't closed.

A thoroughly unsuitable airport for the top people in Poland to land at, mind you.
czarThreads: 4
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 Mar 19, 12, 02:34    #433
convex:
Based on the experience of the crew, it would seem that they were used to flying approaches which relied on decision height and not decision altitude. Combine that with the fact that the airport wasn't in the DB and gave warnings which caused the Captain the set standard pressure to shut it up...well, not good, not good. Simple fact is, if he would have been using the baro altimeter like he was supposed to, they'd probably still be alive, even after knowingly busting minimums (as they did).


you would think adjusting the altimeter and essentially turning off TAWS, is a sure sign that they were reading the barometric meter. (white numbered dial)

"...fact that the airport wasnt in the database..."
1.8.2 Maps and approach charts
The crew had at their disposal approach charts of SMOLENSK NORTH, which were
copies of materials passed off to Polish Embassy in Moscow by the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs of Russian Federation. On 09.04.2009, that outpost forwarded
29
said materials to the
Military Air Traffic Service Office of The Polish Armed Forces which passed them to the 36
Regiment

29
According to a statement by an employee of the Polish Embassy in Moscow, made on 5.05.2010,
a representative of the Polish Dep. at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation informed on
05.04.2010 that procedures for the year 2010 are just like those from 2009.

what pilot would adjust one altimeter to turn off TAWs and not use the other? is this guy serious? and they knew the airport wasnt in the database?
jasondmzkThreads: 31
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 Mar 19, 12, 02:55    #434
Shortly after the crash, a certain fellow was invited onto a panel of "experts" hosted by my Father-In-Law to discuss these matters. My teść wasn't very receptive to the gentleman's opinions and let him know so. Here is the open letter this fellow wrote to complain about his treatment, and his demand for apology from Radio Wrocław. The responses then are as poignant as the responses now. http://lubczasopismo.salon24.pl/consolamentum/post/237330,przyjaciel-n a-zawsze-czyli-o-redaktorze-sondeju
jon357Threads: -
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 Mar 19, 12, 08:25    #435
It seems some people are determined to find a conspiracy since it is easier for them to stomach than the truth.
czarThreads: 4
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 Mar 19, 12, 23:20    #436
jon357:
It seems some people are determined to find a conspiracy since it is easier for them to stomach than the truth.


why bother posting

its easier to accept the story told, dude

there is evidence that russia conspired to divert the presidents plane, by defenition thats a conspiracy.
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 Mar 20, 12, 10:53    #437
czar:
conspired to divert the presidents plane, by defenition thats a conspiracy.

No conspiracy, no reason for a conspiracy, no mystery - just pilot error.

In any case - why on earth would the Russians want to assassinate an unpopular one-term Polish Head of State?
pawianThreads: 90
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 Apr 7, 12, 09:13    #438
gumishu:

Polish media now (only now) report that there are witnesses who heard two explosions before the presidential Tu plunged to the ground - (I don't say anything about the nature of these explosions yet the fact remains that what we were fed by the mainstream media was a completely different picture and reasons for the catastrophe - a birch tree - no explosions were given any credit - this is the offficial stance of the Russians btw)



What could these explosions have been caused by?
gumishuThreads: 17
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Edited by: gumishu  Apr 7, 12, 09:32    #439
jon357:
In any case - why on earth would the Russians want to assassinate an unpopular one-term Polish Head of State?


why the hell did Russians kill Litvinienko???

pawian:
Polish media now (only now) report that there are witnesses who heard two explosions before the presidential Tu plunged to the ground - (I don't say anything about the nature of these explosions yet the fact remains that what we were fed by the mainstream media was a completely different picture and reasons for the catastrophe - a birch tree - no explosions were given any credit - this is the offficial stance of the Russians btw)



What could these explosions have been caused by?


how do I know - I am not the alpha and omega - but I'm pretty sure we can exclude the engines exploding because it would simply destroy them and AFAIK at least one engine is visible on the photos of the crashed plane quite intact - explosions on the other hand could have easily destroyed controls and fuel supply to the engines causing them to stop as was testified by those witnesses I mentioned
pawianThreads: 90
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Edited by: pawian  Apr 7, 12, 09:37    #440
gumishu:
why the hell did Russians kill Litvinienko???


Because:
1. He knew too much about Russian intelligence.
2. He was ready to use it against his former bosses.
3. Doing so, he betrayed mother Russia.

All three deserve death according to Russian doctrine.
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 Apr 7, 12, 09:40    #441
pawian:
1. He knew too much about Russian intelligence.


what the hell the Russians need and use that intelligence for that they need people to be killed - do you not see that if what you state is true Russia is not a normal civilized country one can have a proper relations with???
pawianThreads: 90
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 Apr 7, 12, 09:50    #442
gumishu:
do you not see that if what you state is true Russia is not a normal civilized country one can have a proper relations with???


Russia is a civilised country which created culture known for a lot of masterpieces.

What Americans are doing with terrorists in Guantanamo or Pakistan (assassinating Osama) isn`t too civilised, either, yet many countries have good diplomatic relations with America.

Come on, gumi, stop speaking like a child.
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Edited by: gumishu  Apr 7, 12, 10:00    #443
jasondmzk:
Shortly after the crash, a certain fellow was invited onto a panel of "experts" hosted by my Father-In-Law to discuss these matters. My teść wasn't very receptive to the gentleman's opinions and let him know so. Here is the open letter this fellow wrote to complain about his treatment, and his demand for apology from Radio Wrocław. The responses then are as poignant as the responses now. http://lubczasopismo.salon24.pl/consolamentum/post/237330,przyjaciel-n a-zawsze-czyli-o-redaktorze-sondeju


you definitely can't read Polish jason because you would a couple of times question in your mind the version of the situation your father in law has presented you with (the story told by the Rybitzky guy is very different to what your FIL told you)

pawian:
What Americans are doing with terrorists in Guantanamo


AFAIK they are not killing anybody in Guantanamo - neither they tear their fingernails away or burn away their testicles with high intensity current - so it hardly compares - definitely not with Chechnia war

with America some standards are upheld - they have openly chased and killed bin Laden
gumishuThreads: 17
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Edited by: gumishu  Apr 7, 12, 10:30    #444
quote=pawian]Don`t be a child. Russia isn`t worse than USA and the USA isn`t any better than Russia. [/quote]

are you serious? are you sure it's the same thing to border with Russia and to border with the US?? which country would you personally want to border with?


now imagine that the Smoleńsk crash was actually a Russian terrorist act - what would you do then (if you have prove enough to believe it) - just forget it and move on? shut up for the sake of 'good relations'?

I don't say it was a Russian made thing - I don't know that - but a lot of things seem very suspicious (like the treatment of the plane wreckage) - should we stop asking questions and stop attempts to discover what actually happened - because there already have been a lot of lies told by the Russians themselves and by some circles in Poland that it begs to dig further for the truth because it seems quite sure to me we don't know the truth at the moment

pawian:

As a Pole or Mexican? :):):)

To the best of my knowledge, USA conquered much more Mexican lands in history than Russia stole from Poland.
:):):):)


oh, pal - are you sure Mexicans complain about the neighbourhood of the USA? or quite contrary? also do those Mexicans whose ancestors were conquered by the US long to be united with their 'motherland' or quite contrary - if you don't see that the US is much more a country of freedom than Russia then you should buy good glasses
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Edited by: pawian  Apr 7, 12, 17:19    #445
gumishu:
but a lot of things seem very suspicious (like the treatment of the plane wreckage) -



You should have a bit bigger knowledge of the world. The treatment of the Polish plane wreckage is not worse than it happens in the world. It is the same and it seems a regular procedure. We can complain or protest but nothing can be done about it now.


The remaining wreckage of the Boeing jumbo jet is stored about a mile from Tattershall, Lincolnshire, at Roger Windley's scrapyard, pending the conclusion of the American victims' civil case. (53°7′19.35″N 0°12′58.09″W)[156] The remains include the nose section of the Boeing 747, which is largely intact but was cut into several pieces to assist in removal from Tundergarth Hill.

s


19 years on and Lockerbie plane debris is rotting away in a scrapyard
This mass of twisted metal is the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 ? still lying abandoned in a scrapyard.
Quite why it is there, 19 years after the atrocity, is shrouded in mystery.
The remains, hidden away in rural Lincolnshire, include the twisted nose section of the Boeing 747 that became the most haunting image of the bombing.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-490284/19-years-Lockerbie-plan e-debris-rotting-away-scrapyard.html#ixzz1rMsowNxd




I can say, the treatment is not so bad, compared to this:



GREEDY GHOUL OF LOCKERBIE
Dec 21 2008 By Daniel Jones Daniel.Jones@People.Co.Uk
20 years to day after horror on Pan Am Flt 103 we nail creep flogging wreckage for £450 If there's a few hundred in it for me I'll sell cockpit gear It's a bit naughty. But I can offer you the emergency exit
Mangled wreckage from the Lockerbie outrage is being sold as sick memorabilia by one of the men who recovered it, The People can reveal.
The remains of Pan Am Flight 103 - blown out of the sky by a terrorist bomb 20 years ago today killing 270 - are being flogged off by greedy ghoul Simon Windley.
Callous Windley, 51, whose dad's scrap firm got the contract to recover the tragic debris and store it, is happy to sell sections of the shattered Boeing 747.
Boss Roger Windley, 74, who is unaware of his son's gruesome trade, is forbidden from disposing of the wreckage until the files on Britain's worst terrorist attack are closed.
But when a People undercover investigator approached Simon Windley last week he had no qualms about pocketing...
£250 for cockpit controls, a battered emergency door and a toilet.
£50 for a 4ft shard of the tailplane in blue-and-white Pan Am livery and two lifejackets.
£50 for a photo of the inside of the cockpit where the pilots died.
£100 for parts of two other nasty air crashes.
Afterwards Windley said casually: "If you want any more parts I am prepared to help you, for a fee obviously."
Relatives of the Lockerbie victims will be appalled - while police and air crash investigators will be alarmed that wreckage which could be vital in any new criminal investigation is disappearing.
Dr Jim Swire, whose daughter Flora, 24, died in the atrocity, yesterday branded Windley as "sick".
After a tip-off, a People investigator posing as a dealer acting on behalf of a collector approached Windley on Wednesday at his father's huge scrapyard at Tattershall near Boston, Lincs.
The firm specialises in salvaging air crashes and was hired by insurance giant Lloyds to retrieve the wreckage scattered for miles around the Scottish townof Lockerbie on that horrific night in 1988.
Windley, fitting out a caravanette next to a fenced-off zone holding the 325 tons of twisted Boeing metal, beckoned our man inside his workshop and whispered: "Give me your phone number. How big a bit do you want?"
He said he could not let our man take anything away as there were cameras around the yard. Instead he arranged for us to rendezvous with him away from the yard next day. He grinned: "If there's a couple of hundred quid I will get you something. It might be one or two little things."
When our investigator asked if he could find a piece with Pan Am on it, or something to identify it as the Lockerbie jet, he said: "That would be a bit naughty."
And he warned: "And it hasn't come from me. Say you found it in woods near to the crash site."
On Thursday, he sent a text saying: "Will a toilet and something else do. If so I will want £250."


http://www.people.co.uk/archive/other/2008/12/21/greedy-ghoul-of-locke rbie-93463-20987086/
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 Apr 7, 12, 17:28    #446
gumishu:
but a lot of things seem very suspicious (like the treatment of the plane wreckage)

unless one is intimate with that process, one should not speculate.
The press is the biggest ghoul.
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 Apr 7, 12, 17:51    #447
The only thing that can be said at this stage is that it wasn't final Polish report on Smolensk air-crash.
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Edited by: pawian  Apr 12, 12, 22:46    #448
gumishu:
now imagine that the Smoleńsk crash was actually a Russian terrorist act -



Latest poll:

s

Terrorist act?:

Definitely not - 36%

Rather not - 30%

Rather yes - 11%

Definitely yes - 10%

Hard to say - 13%

http://www.tvn24.pl/-1,1741294,0,1,nie-wierzymy-w-zamach-rosjanie-utru dniaja-wyjasnianie-katastrofy,wiadomosc.html

55% Poles believe that Russians are trying to hide important information

s
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 Apr 13, 12, 01:18    #449
gumishu:
now imagine that the Smoleńsk crash was actually a Russian terrorist act

This is the problem. People 'imagine' a bit too much without going straight to the bottom line. The Russian government had no reason whatsoever to cause a plane crash. Nor did anybody else.
IronsideThreads: 59
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 Apr 13, 12, 02:26    #450
jon357:
This is the problem. People 'imagine' a bit too much without going straight to the bottom line. The Russian government had no reason whatsoever to cause a plane crash. Nor did anybody else.

I think you are a bit out of touch!
http://www.gazetaprawna.pl/wiadomosci/artykuly/608787,raport_macierewi cza_dwa_wstrzasy_przyczyna_katastrofy_pod_smolenskiem_20_dniesien_do_p rokuratury.html


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