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Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash


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NomadatNetThreads: 6
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Edited by: NomadatNet  Jul 31, 11, 15:03    #91
He needed the time to analyse the situation , do you think that the synoptic conditions are given in normal words or rather you get parameters from which you have to figure out real conditions .

I think the parts in the report referencing blockboxes are not too credible, opinion of an expert here: http://smolensk-2010.pl/2010-05-10-long-hands-of-fsb.html , as there is a serious claim above that the blackboxes were decoded, partially deleted and or falsified. All info we have from inside the airplane should be taken aside for a while. In this stiuation, met reports from satellites too are not too credible, imo.
So, the only data we have is what is available from Warsaw and Minsk (considering that Russia is a suspect, forget their claims and words too as they are good at info chaosing.)

According to Polish report which is confirmed by Russians too, those times you mentioned above and I summarized above in my post above are strange definitely. Why there is a communication with Minsk too? It is to create further chaos in info? Minimal info is times you mentioned above are absurd definitely. As if "accident(!)" was tried to fit the accident book..

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Edited by: convex  Jul 31, 11, 15:05    #92
The light`s warning system was completely obscured by trees, which were several meters high above the norm . On the path of a runaway high trees were growing, which was not compatible with international rules . After the crach the pathway and lights system were cleared out of the trees .

Apparently it was safe enough for the Presidential security detail to clear it. The crew apparently thought it safe enough when they landed a couple of days before.

Vitebsk was closed btw.

Controllers confirmed him that the plane was on the safe altitude , he was deprived of the proper information of the plane`s altitude due to the lack of current baromiter conditions which should be given by Smolensk meteorologist on duty in order to set up his altimeter on board of the plane .

The radar altimeter doesn't require the pressure. Based on the recording, seems like they were following it.

Here's the outcome of the Polish report:

The descent below minimum descent altitude (MDA), with an excessive rate of descent, in atmospheric conditions which prevented visual contact with the runway. The decision to go-around was taken too late. This led to collision with terrain, the destruction of the left wing, consequently loss of control and loss of the aircraft.

Contributing factors were:

- unverified high barometric altimeter setting during a non-precision approach
- lack of reaction to TAWS warnings
- attempt to go around by pressing TOGA, which however was not armed
- tower ATC attempting to talk the aircraft down although the aircraft's position was outside approach limits, the ATC instructions re-inforcing the crew's belief they were conducting a proper approach
- failure of tower to inform the crew about being too low and instructing the crew to maintain level flight too late
- inappropriate/insufficient training of the crew on TU-154M aircraft

Unfavourable factors were:

- improper crew cooperation causing excessive load on the commander during the last phase of flight
- inadequate flight preparation
- insufficient knowledge of functions and limits of their aircraft by the crew
- improper monitoring of each other by all flight crew members, lack of corrective actions to mistakes
- incorrect selection of crew to perform the flight, íncorrect task assignment to crew members
- incorrect supervision of flight crew training
- the operator's failure to set criteria for stabilised approach, runway and environmental requirements for various approach types, and crew cooperation
- the operator's failure to ensure practical experience, especially at the Smolensk North aerodrome


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 Jul 31, 11, 15:33    #93
Apparently it was safe enough for the Presidential security detail to clear it. The crew apparently thought it safe enough when they landed a couple of days before.


Strange that the same pilot managed to land there three days before in the same plane at the same airport, without problem - if it was really so dangerous, how come they managed then?
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 Jul 31, 11, 15:39    #94
Strange that the same pilot managed to land there three days before in the same plane at the same airport, without problem - if it was really so dangerous, how come they managed then?


Are you serious about this question? If I close your eyes, can you still walk easily on the narrow path that you walk everyday?
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 Jul 31, 11, 15:54    #95
Are you serious about this question? If I close your eyes, can you still walk easily on the narrow path that you walk everyday?


If I had the President, as well as many other VIP's on my back, then I wouldn't take the risk to begin with.
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Edited by: Ironside  Jul 31, 11, 16:05    #96
At the end of the day - even if there was systematic institutional failures - it doesn't excuse the commander.

Yes that all very nice, you are saying that if a plane loose engine and a wing it is still is fault of a commander.
Monia  Jul 31, 11, 16:07    #97
he crew apparently thought it safe enough


Well , it was in different weather conditions , wasn`t it ?

Do you expect form the pilot to complain about the height of the trees , they would laugh at him , don`t be naive that any pilot would do it . It was up to his superiors to decide and give him actual conditions of the aerodrome , those ones he was handed over were false . Read the segment in the report how much of the area was covered by trees exceeding the norm .
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 Jul 31, 11, 16:08    #98
Are you serious about this question? If I close your eyes, can you still walk easily on the narrow path that you walk everyday?


Nomad, I think your tightrope walking aspirations are pretty risqué, considering how many monarchists owe a pair of scissors…

Strange that the same pilot managed to land there three days before in the same plane at the same airport, without problem - if it was really so dangerous, how come they managed then?

Well, he obviously did it purely out of spite, to annoy a certain hysteriot prowling this forum.
(Yes, I’ve just coined a new word: hysteriot – a person who time and time again confuses patriotism with blind hysteria.)
Monia  Jul 31, 11, 16:11    #99
Yes that all very nice, you are saying that if a plane loose engine and a wing it is still is fault of a commander.


Good point .

It is the best idea ( politically justified ) to put all the blame on the pilot, as he is dead and those responsible are still alive .
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 Jul 31, 11, 16:15    #100
Do you expect form the pilot to complain about the height of the trees , they would laugh at him , don`t be naive that any pilot would do it . It was up to his superiors to decide and give him actual conditions of the aerodrome , those ones he was handed over were false . Read the segment in the report how much of the area was covered by trees exceeding the norm .


Again - who went below minima? Not the superiors, not the Russians, but the commander of the plane.

The report makes it pretty clear that it looks like he was expecting the magic "button" to work as it always did, only to be surprised when it didn't. But he still made the go-around call far, far too late.

It is the best idea ( politically justified ) to put all the blame on the pilot, as he is dead and those responsible are still alive .


Again - the pilots went below minima. Not anyone else.
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Edited by: NomadatNet  Jul 31, 11, 16:26    #101
If I had the President, as well as many other VIP's on my back, then I wouldn't take the risk to begin with.

(this isn't an answer to my question above.. anyway.)

About landing on April 7, three days ago, you mentioned above:

“Few day before the planned visit of Lech a Kaczynski in Katyn, landed the head of the Russian government Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Donald Tusk, with the help of particularly delivered a radar device, on 7 April on the Smolensker airport. On Saturday 10 April 2010 the equipment had disappeared” - Julia Latynina commentated on Thursday in “the Moscow Times”. Nevertheless it added that one had prepared a strategy during the Tusk of visit also, as one lets the visit of the Polish president Lech Kaczynski treat by Russian authorities “as redundant” can.

Colonel Bartosz Stroinski, which on 7 April as a commander Tupolev Prime Minister Tusk flew to Smolensk said that the crew accomplished the landing with the help of the standard equipment local military airport. It granted here that conditions were rather bad locally. Considering its one must ask oneself however, what drove a Iljuschin-60 after Smolensk, which accomplished there alleged landing attempts, which one should assign possibly later Tupolev for the time of the approach of Polish journalists, although this undertook only one attempt.

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 Jul 31, 11, 16:27    #102
So why don't PiS conduct their own investigation to draw their own conclusions? It's easy to point the finger but what independent analyses have they performed? They have almost everything they need at their disposal and were they to rely on known facts, their report might be credible. Come on, JK, what are you waiting for?
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 Jul 31, 11, 16:31    #103
“Few day before the planned visit of Lech a Kaczynski in Katyn, landed the head of the Russian government Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Donald Tusk, with the help of particularly delivered a radar device, on 7 April on the Smolensker airport. On Saturday 10 April 2010 the equipment had disappeared” - Julia Latynina commentated on Thursday in “the Moscow Times”. Nevertheless it added that one had prepared a strategy during the Tusk of visit also, as one lets the visit of the Polish president Lech Kaczynski treat by Russian authorities “as redundant” can.


So - this whole story about the equipment at Smolensk is based on the writing of one journalist, who opposes Putin and claims that he has power over all European leaders?

Utter nonsense and not worth listening to. Until someone credible comes forward to say that a portable ILS system was installed - the claim must be treated as hearsay.

From wikipedia -

Viktor Yanukovych’s victory in the presidential election once again raises doubt about the basic premise of democracy: that the people are capable of choosing their own leader. Unfortunately, only wealthy people are truly capable of electing their leaders in a responsible manner.[13]

Such a nice, trusting woman - isn't she?

Colonel Bartosz Stroinski, which on 7 April as a commander Tupolev Prime Minister Tusk flew to Smolensk said that the crew accomplished the landing with the help of the standard equipment local military airport.

Standard equipment? Hardly informative - was it an ILS system, was he talking about the 2xNDB, what?
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 Jul 31, 11, 16:38    #104
It's simple. The Polish pilot will have known that there was no ILS nor MLS. Therefore, they have no leg to stand on.
Monia  Jul 31, 11, 16:48    #105
The radar altimeter doesn't require the pressure.


They were using radio and barometer altimeter . What do you mean then ?

The controllers were giving him also false data and they were confirming him about his proper altitude which was false . His altimeters were not showing him proper height due to the lack of the information from Smolensk meteo about the current air pressure .


Here's the outcome of the Polish report:


Yes the official conclusions , but if you have brains you can figure out something else, if you read the report carefully . Your conclusions might be very different .

Why was the pilot not informed about the fact that the aerodrome was not equipped with ILS system and the system was removed just days before ?
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 Jul 31, 11, 16:56    #106
Wait a minute, Delphiandomine:

Monia said somethings like this "Smolensk wasn't so good/proper airport to land (even in the clear air.)"
She didn't say anything wrong. All people know this. There is always risk at any airport and at Smolensk, there are more risks.

You objected this, to defend Smolensk airport too..

Delphiandomine: "Strange that the same pilot managed to land there three days before in the same plane at the same airport, without problem - if it was really so dangerous, how come they managed then?"

What has your these words to do with the average conditions, not being perfect, of Smolensk airport? I drew an analogy by saying this:

Nomad: "Are you serious about this question? If I close your eyes, can you still walk easily on the narrow path that you walk everyday?"

And, you changed the dialog by deviating from airport by bring an additional parameter "existence of president and vip" this time.

Why didn't you say simply this "yes, Smolensk airport isn't so good airport and weather condition/fog made things worse.." - Instead, you tried to defend even Smolensk airport and this shows that you'll defend everythings Russian and will try to kill any evidence/logic that you'll not like. You say we should not believe a journalist. Shall we believe Putin? Isn't ok if I believe my own logic that says this Smolensk is nothing else than a liquidation?
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 Jul 31, 11, 17:05    #107
Polish mistakes were crushing, though, and directly contributed to the accident.

Is it true that the Polish goverment is denying pension to the flight pilots'widows ?
If so, it is appalling,looks like misplaced revenge and will not help the dead coming back anyway.
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 Jul 31, 11, 17:15    #108
Yet Marta Kaczyńska appears to have profitted quite handsomely according to a few sources.

PiS have a great chance for an open debate and the elections are but 2.5 months away. This could really help sway some of the sceptical public their way.
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Edited by: delphiandomine  Jul 31, 11, 17:37    #109
His altimeters were not showing him proper height due to the lack of the information from Smolensk meteo about the current air pressure .

There was information from Smolensk. Read the transcript - the barometric information was clearly given. You can even listen to the CVR if you want.

Why was the pilot not informed about the fact that the aerodrome was not equipped with ILS system and the system was removed just days before ?

Again, you don't seem to show much, if any knowledge about aviation. If you were truly a pilots daughter, you'd know that pilots are given approach charts for every airport - which would tell them exactly what was installed at what airport and how to land there. The charts given to them had no mention of an ILS, so - what's the issue?

Yes the official conclusions , but if you have brains you can figure out something else, if you read the report carefully . Your conclusions might be very different .

I've read it several times - and you seem to be claiming things that contradict what's written in the report.

Take a look here - http://www.krakowpost.com/article/2132 -

10:24:49,2: D: The temperature (incomp.), air pressure 7-45. 7-4-5, the landing conditions are nonexistent.

Air pressure 7-4-5. That's the setting for the barometric altimeter. It's there in black and white - why are you trying to contradict this?

Why didn't you say simply this "yes, Smolensk airport isn't so good airport and weather condition/fog made things worse.."

Because the airport was fine for what it was - a closed ex-military airport with minimal facilities. I've said numerous times - it was sheer stupidity on the part of the military to even attempt to fly there - and they learnt the hard way. Sure, the lights were obscured - but what difference would they make when Blasik said "visibility : zero"?

Bear in mind one thing - Smolensk controllers told them clearly that there were "no conditions for landing".
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 Jul 31, 11, 17:59    #110
They were using radio and barometer altimeter . What do you mean then ?

The controllers were giving him also false data and they were confirming him about his proper altitude which was false . His altimeters were not showing him proper height due to the lack of the information from Smolensk meteo about the current air pressure .

radar altimeter is the same thing as a radio altimeter. if you read the cvr transcript, you can see that they were using it, and the report states it as well. apparently minsk ATC gave qfe at 1500m.

Yes the official conclusions , but if you have brains you can figure out something else, if you read the report carefully . Your conclusions might be very different .

Why was the pilot not informed about the fact that the aerodrome was not equipped with ILS system and the system was removed just days before ?

They planned an NDB approach from the start.
Monia  Jul 31, 11, 18:09    #111
We can read form the report official causes of the crash included in provisions –

nb 3.2.2. Circumstances Contributing to the Accident

1) Failure to monitor altitude by means of a pressure altimeter during a non-precision approach;

( yes , that`s the fact, the other fact is that the device was not set up ( Smolensk aerodrome data should be put in memory storage of it before entering the plane ) it was up to other people to put in such data, but not the pilot ( maybe technicians ) .. How would the monitoring be carried on by the pilot, if he was deprived of proper air pressure data , which was not delivered by Smolensk meteo due to lack of proper equipment . Given air pressure was false .

2) failure by the crew to respond to the PULL UP warning generated by the TAWS;

That`s the fact , but how could the commander communicate with the controllers, if the TAWS alarm was on making unbearable noise . The plane`s altitude was 1500 meters according to controllers , he couldn`t verify this with plane`s barometer at the same time , so he believed the plane was positioned at such altitude.

3) attempt to execute the go-around maneuver under the control of ABSU (automatic go-around);

That is very disputable , as some experts state that the system was not even switched on as the pilot wanted to pull the machine manually .

4) Approach Control confirming to the crew the correct position of the airplane in relation to the RWY threshold, glide slope, and course which might have affirmed the crew's belief that the approach was proceeding correctly although the airplane was actually outside the permissible deviation margin;

That was Smolensk air traffic control crew fault .

5) failure by LZC to inform the crew about descending below the glide slope and delayed issuance of the level-out command;

The same as above

6) incorrect training of the Tu-154M flight crews in the 36 Regiment.

Which was fully responsible for putting as a c-pilot untrained junior pilot ( he didn`t know the rules of barometric altimeter , no knowledge of Russian language )

During the difficult flight , it should be a cockpit silence , while the pilot had to talk over the radio with the tower in Russian language , checking radio and barometer altimeters , making the proper assumptions about the weather conditions , speaking with DWL commander and protocol`s director . , everything occurring during the difficult conditions . Don`t you think it was too much for one commander .

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 Jul 31, 11, 18:18    #112
Given air pressure was false .


Again - you're telling deliberate lies. I'm not sure why, but page 229 of the English report makes it clear that it was fine.

Where in the report do you read anything about a false barometric reading? What page? Or is this just your hypothesis, based on nothing and certainly contradictory to the official report?

That`s the fact , but how could the commander communicate with the controllers, if the TAWS alarm was on making unbearable noise .


It's not unbearable. The CVR shows that it's loud enough to be heard, but not unbearable.

That is very disputable , as some experts state that the system was not even switched on as the pilot wanted to pull the machine manually .


'some experts'? What experts?

We've had tests done, and we can clearly see that he attempted to do something that simply didn't work. And anyway, he made the go-around call far too late. If he had made the GA call at 130m, realised 5 seconds later that the button wasn't working and then started to pull up - maybe, just maybe, the plane would've escaped by a matter of meters. But anyway - it was pilot error - if he was trained properly, he'd know that the TOGA button wouldn't work in such a circumstance.

Don`t you think it was too much for one commander .


Yes, it was far too much for him. That's why the plane hit the ground.

Monia, he made mistakes and killed everyone as a result. The Russians didn't help (the late calls, etc), but the ultimate blame has to lie with him. The Russians didn't guide him into the ground - he put the plane there himself.
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 Jul 31, 11, 18:22    #113
2) It wasn't that noisy, Monia. There is an online account of the plane coming in and it didn't impede communication.

3) No, the go around was left until it was too late. They were given the instructions to bail out but they had already dipped too low and it's hard to pull such a plane up so quickly.

4) Professional pilots clearly disagree with you, Monia. If it was so clear, don't you think experts would have known it?

5) It does strike me as strange, yes. It was a former military airport and they have better facilities than domestic airports.

6) You MUST know the rules of barometric pressure. The main pilot knew Russian very well and that's what counts. If it was too much then they should have foreseen that and left for an alternative airport long before. Why couldn't they have flown earlier, stayed at a hotel and then be fresh for the tribute ceremony? Skąpstwo!!
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 Jul 31, 11, 18:22    #114
By the way, regarding the ravine.

Again, you've pushed and pushed and pushed the theory that they didn't know that it was there.

But - page 228 of the English report contradicts you dramatically.

The commander certainly knew about it.
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 Jul 31, 11, 18:24    #115
Only the most amateur of pilots wouldn't have known about a ravine or canyon there. Protasiuk had made the same flight just 3 days before so he HAD TO know the lay of the land. Monia, I also suspected foul play but it seems like Polish over-confidence to me. Many Poles agree with me on this one.
Monia  Jul 31, 11, 18:28    #116
radar altimeter is the same thing as a radio altimeter. if you read the cvr transcript, you can see that they were using it, and the report states it as well. apparently minsk ATC gave qfe at 1500m.


But this radar altimeter is not inside the plane . The controlling tower is equipped with such device . This radar altimeter indicated the plane`s altitude on 1500 meters above the ground and such data was passed on to the Polish commander by the LZC crew in Smolensk . That was a major fault and the most crucial factor of the crash .

In the opinion of the Committee, errors of LZC ( landing zone crew ) of Smolensk controlling tower and deviations from principles of servicing landing approaches using radar equipment involved the following::

1) informing the crew about the aircraft‘s correct position ―on course and on glide path while their position in reference to RWY center line and glide path was outside of the acceptable deviation zone;

2) communicating information about distance to RWY 26 500-600 m in advance;

3) no reaction (for a period of 10 s) to the crew‘s continued descent beyond maximum acceptable deviation (-30‘).

4) delayed issue of the command „Горизонт, сто один‖ (Horizon, one zero one) to the Tu-154M crew.


In circumstances where, during final landing approach, LZC experienced difficulty keeping a visual on the aircraft on the glide path or course display, he should have immediately duly notified the aircraft crew.

LZC notifying the Tu-154M crew of the aircraft’s correct position ―on course, on glide path contrary to its actual position, may have reassured the crew about the correct execution of approach, and correct flight trajectory.

LZC‘s priority was to ensure safe performance of landing approaches by aircraft crews on April 10th 2010.

They missed principles and made many above mentioned mistakes

The quality of his performance was a crucial element in the circumstances of flight under analysis.

Due to the Russian party not having provided important documents, and not having permitted a repeated interrogation of the ATC air traffic controller Group, the Committee based its analysis primarily on the actual flight trajectory of the Tu-154M aircraft, and on voice recordings at Inner ATC Post and in the aircraft cockpit.

Very important failure of Russian investigators .

Lack of LZC‘s reaction to further deviation of the aircraft below the glide path was an important factor in the accident.

It is impossible to speculate what the crew‘s reaction would have been if they had heard the command from LZC landing zone crew ordering the approach to be aborted, at the time when they were moving out of the area of maximum acceptable deviation from the glide path. Such command, however, should have been communicated to the crew by the LZC at least 10 s before it actually had been.


This simple few words from the report contain the actual cause of the crash .



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 Jul 31, 11, 18:32    #117
Monia, it can't be that simple. Experts have analysed this and fault would be easy to prove. Why don't you get PiS to publish a report on that if it's so clear?
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 Jul 31, 11, 18:34    #118
The Russians should have fired some missiles to the direction of the plane to persuade them not to land.
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Edited by: Moderator  Jul 31, 11, 18:35    #119
But this radar altimeter is not inside the plane . The controlling tower is equipped with such device . This radar altimeter indicated the plane`s altitude on 1500 meters above the ground and such data was passed on to the Polish commander by the LZC crew in Smolensk . That was a major fault and the most crucial factor of the crash .

....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_altimeter

Again, I quote.

A radar altimeter, radio altimeter, low range radio altimeter (LRRA) or simply RA measures altitude above the terrain presently beneath an aircraft or spacecraft. This type of altimeter provides the distance between the plane and the ground directly below it, as opposed to a barometric altimeter which provides the distance above a pre-determined datum, usually sea level.

Seriously now...

Go away and read up about decision heights - here - I'll give you a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_height#Decision_height_or_altitu de

Now - tell me - what was the TU-154M's decision height?

Keep it civil.
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 Jul 31, 11, 18:49    #120
( yes , that`s the fact, the other fact is that the device was not set up ( Smolensk aerodrome data should be put in memory storage of it before entering the plane ) it was up to other people to put in such data, but not the pilot ( maybe technicians ) .. How would the monitoring be carried on by the pilot, if he was deprived of proper air pressure data , which was not delivered by Smolensk meteo due to lack of proper equipment . Given air pressure was false .

QFE was given.
That`s the fact , but how could the commander communicate with the controllers, if the TAWS alarm was on making unbearable noise . The plane`s altitude was 1500 meters according to controllers , he couldn`t verify this with plane`s barometer at the same time , so he believed the plane was positioned at such altitude.

Because he didn't enter the QFE when he transitioned.
That is very disputable , as some experts state that the system was not even switched on as the pilot wanted to pull the machine manually .

It was part of the FDR information
That was Smolensk air traffic control crew fault .

Yup, even though the controller is only in an advisory role. the crew is responsible for maintaining altitude
During the difficult flight , it should be a cockpit silence , while the pilot had to talk over the radio with the tower in Russian language , checking radio and barometer altimeters , making the proper assumptions about the weather conditions , speaking with DWL commander and protocol`s director . , everything occurring during the difficult conditions . Don`t you think it was too much for one commander .

I think that the cockpit resource management was deplorable. Why for instance was the captain on the radio and flying? Sloppy, very very sloppy.
But this radar altimeter is not inside the plane . The controlling tower is equipped with such device . This radar altimeter indicated the plane`s altitude on 1500 meters above the ground and such data was passed on to the Polish commander by the LZC crew in Smolensk . That was a major fault and the most crucial factor of the crash .

The RA is on the plane.


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