Polish Immigrants Leave America for Europe

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Mar 9, 08, 18:02 #151

jones101 wrote:

When I left the US for the long term I was critical of many US policies and attitudes...but after having been all over the world and spent years living in many different cultures I have changed my opinions.

I would really like to hear some examples...to get some perspective.
We hear plenty on the forum about what is wrong with the US, I haven't ever heard of anyone changing their mind about their perceptions. What do you understand now, from being in other cultures, that you didn't understand then? :)

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Edited by: jones101 Mar 9, 08, 19:33 #152

shopgirl wrote:

I would really like to hear some examples...to get some perspective.
We hear plenty on the forum about what is wrong with the US, I haven't ever heard of anyone changing their mind about their perceptions. What do you understand now, from being in other cultures, that you didn't understand then? :)

Sure...

To give you the back story I was the guy that always argued with my and "conservative" friends and colleagues (and in my line of work then and now there were a majority of 'conservative' minded people) about how all people are basically the same inside and we should respect all religions, cultures etc etc. While I was all for protecting the free world etc I really had no idea how much truly needed protecting. They all called me a 'hippy' :)

Fast forward 15-20 years and a few wars and aid trips later and my perspective has changed in many ways. People are NOT the same all over. Some people and religions do not want peace and coexistence they want domination and control. I am not just talking the extremists I am talking about normal, everyday citizens. And don't think I am just talking about Taliban etc...Africa...South America...Asia...there are cultures in all of these places that would make you ill if you knew what things were really like.

All cultures have bad people...but some just cannot grasp respect, peace and caring. Criticize the US as much as you like...argue about members of the military that did bad things (minority) or rednecks that beat their wives (minority) but the reality is American culture as a whole is a caring culture that wants to make the world better for everyone (even if we do fall short at times).

Most of the things people complain about the US is just flat wrong...Americans are not less intelligent or world-wise than anyone else. There are plenty of Poles or Germans or French that cannot speak another language or show you Chile on a map...there is just as many drunks, adulterers and drug addicts in China or Peru or Spain as the US...the media spews nonsense all the time and people buy it because they WANT to hate America and blame us for their problems. It took me being away from home and being immersed in other cultures to get that.

I am still not religious...I will never tattoo an American flag on my arm with some patriotic slogan. But now I am much more appreciative of how kind and respectful MOST Americans really are and I understand more why we do the things we do in the world.

I think most people that scream and yell about how imperialist or violent the US is would not last a day in the cultures they are 'championing'. They truly cannot see that they are free to be such mouthy gits because they ARE Americans or Poles or any other number of free people. 99% of the time they really don't have the first clue as to what they are talking about.

Despite what so many people try and say the US does not want to impose it's culture on anyone...it simply wants everyone to have the FREEDOM to choose their lifestyle and culture and not have control, violence and suffering visited upon them.

I am to the point where I don't enjoy meeting new people here in Poland because the conversation inevitably turns to them interrogating me about why the US is so this and why Americans are so that...even if they listen to my explanations they generally seem to not be willing to accept them as it is much easier to imagine us as a bunch of uneducated, spoiled children. It makes them feel superior. I have a standing bet with my fiancee that if it takes less than 10 minutes for someone new to start in on me about how bad the US education system is she has to cook dinner. People I have just met always criticize the US as if I am responsible for all it's faults...and they normally seem to get upset if I don't reinforce their stereotype.

Somebody is bound to pick out quotes and argue but I truly don't care...this is how I see it and how my experience (which is vast...not being arrogant just truthful) has changed my vision.

If people want to make the world a better place they need to get out there and repair and redirect it rather than do self serving pointless work like selling Ferraris, giving boob jobs or writing opinion articles. OR if they want to complain and tell everyone else how smart they are I guess they are FREE to do that....whether that makes them a good person or not.

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Mar 9, 08, 20:40 #153

I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize in advance if I come off as repetitive.

I understand if people are leaving the US for cultural reasons (parts of the US would drive me nuts enough to leave) but I really don't understand why people would be leaving because America isn't the gold mine they expected it to be. No matter where you go, no one is going to throw money at you. Opportunity is what you make of it. There are people that do next to nothing and then go around complaining that they're poor and want to go somewhere else. Thats pure BS, in my opinion. For those that are willing to work hard (not just doing physical work but also learning the language) success will follow. This isn't just about Polish people because I know lots of other people of all kinds of nationalities that stick to their own little area, are limited to crappy jobs because they can't communicate and then complain about the glory days of whichever country they're from. My friend's parents came from Portugal over 30 years ago and can't say "Hi, how are you?" without a thick accent. They stick to their small community and insist that their daughter marry a Portuguese guy because they won't be able to communicate otherwise. In order to be 'successful', I truly do believe that learning the language should be a top priority. Anyone can make a few bucks in Canada and the US but it will be a huge struggle unless you learn the language.

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Mar 9, 08, 20:57 #154

Exactly Mali! Also in order to make it good in america ur gonna have to be competetive with them in the job market! If u can barely speak English u just won't cut it! The best u can really expect is a manual labor job which won't pay u that much! U also need a Valid college degree because its getting more and more competetive for jobs currently.

Without a college degree and a good grasp of the english language its very hard to do well in america. U need accomplishments that set u apart from the competetion! Any able bodied person could work at a mcdonalds or do manual labor which is the kind of jobs immigrants who hardly speak english would b going for!

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Mar 9, 08, 21:03 #155

Right on jones101. Most of the America bashers abroad know it only from the movies or their media, the home grown ones quickly get cured, when they stick their nose outside of the country. This country owes you nothing and gives you nothing, what it gives you however is opportunity. It's up to you what you want to do with it. Then, if you're smart - you can have anything and everything. I am an immigrant and came here with a suitcase in my hand. There is no other place where I would want to be.

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Mar 9, 08, 21:49 #156

jones101 wrote:

Sure...

To give you the back story

Thanks for that. I wish others had the same wealth of experience that you do. :)

jones101 wrote:

I have a standing bet with my fiancee that if it takes less than 10 minutes for someone new to start in on me about how bad the US education system is she has to cook dinner.

I had to chuckle at that...even though it shouldn't be funny! But I know what you meant....

Mali wrote:

I understand if people are leaving the US for cultural reasons (parts of the US would drive me nuts enough to leave)

And its a BIG country....lots of parts, like lots of little countries rolled into one land mass!

jones101 wrote:

If people want to make the world a better place they need to get out there and repair and redirect it

Absolutely! :)

Good post....thanks for the input.

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Mar 9, 08, 21:52 #157

RockyMason wrote:

Exactly Mali! Also in order to make it good in america ur gonna have to be competetive with them in the job market! If u can barely speak English u just won't cut it! The best u can really expect is a manual labor job which won't pay u that much! U also need a Valid college degree because its getting more and more competetive for jobs currently.

Without a college degree and a good grasp of the english language its very hard to do well in america. U need accomplishments that set u apart from the competetion! Any able bodied person could work at a mcdonalds or do manual labor which is the kind of jobs immigrants who hardly speak english would b going for!

Its very difficult to be successful at anything if you can't even communicate. As you said, its a competitive place and you need to be able to beat the next guy. People often look at learning English as a 'betrayal' of their mother tongue instead of as a power tool that they can master for their own advancement. Learning to speak another language (especially in the country you're living in!) can only be beneficial.

Re: Manual labour
I guess it depends on the kind you're talking about but in Canada there is a HUGE industry in construction and home renovations. If you're good at it and can set up a business (which requires being able to speak some English!), you can make yourself a very decent living. One of my parent's good friends (yes he's Polish) owns and runs a mid-sized company in this industry and is bringing in millions annually. He speaks English with an accent, but he's very good at getting his message across and he also has a very acute sense of business. None of these skills would be useful if he can't talk to other business owners.

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Edited by: Dice Mar 9, 08, 22:19 #158

Puzzler wrote:

Aren't they leaving because of the vicious Polonophobia that is rampant in the US, including Canada?

No it's because they were here illegally, or have never learned English, or have never got a college degree.
And most of all, the majority Poles I know that had to leave the US to start all over somewhere else had to do that because of a drinking problem; but that's another story.

USA is exceptionally open and tolerant to other cultures. If you feel "oppressed" here you should had never left your home village.

in the US, including Canada

Hey, don't you know that Canada is not a part of the US? Jeez, these people don't even know basic geography! LOL

Puzzler wrote:

Besides, scores of people throughout the world seem to feel that the days of US power are numbered and something terrible - some horrific catastrophy - is going to happen soon in that part of the world.

That is a wishful thinking on your part, especially disturbing because of that smiling face at the end of this quite. You are truly a sick man, Puzzler.

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Mar 9, 08, 22:43 #159

Puzzler wrote:
Besides, scores of people throughout the world seem to feel that the days of US power are numbered and something terrible - some horrific catastrophy - is going to happen soon in that part of the world.

Like having to pay China back the money they owe? That would be catastrophic!

Polonophobia

I'm sick to death of this word. Sure there are some people that specifically don't like Polish people but generally speaking, this 'polonophobia' is in the minds of some Polish people that like to play victim. Far worse racism and prejudice is aimed at Muslims, Blacks, Asians, Hispanics on a regular basis that to hear someone complaining that a few people don't like us Polaks is being plain whiny, in my opinion. Build a bridge and get over it.

outintheyardThreads: 37 Posts: 542 Joined: Jan 7, 08 ♂	Mar 10, 08, 07:38 #160
MAli have you been to Niagra falls. All of this gets a new perspective when you see places like that.

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Mar 10, 08, 12:22 #161

jones101 wrote:

the media spews nonsense all the time and people buy it because they WANT to hate America and blame us for their problems. It took me being away from home and being immersed in other cultures to get that.

... i do not think people really want to hate US(specifically) and blame for all the problems...maybe in purely political sense?..ALL politicians (all over the world) always look for scapegoats...nothing unique or new here...but you are forgetting that for a very long time, lots of people-nationalities (NOT including politicians) envied and were jealous of US - not in a malicious way (i am talking pre-1990's)....so perhaps there is a reason why that perception has changed???

jones101 wrote:

the media spews nonsense all the time and people buy it

same here, in the US...every day, all day...non-stop marathon of spewing non-sense..it is so pathetic...it is hard to find a channel to get a descent honest, un-biased, accurate news...

look, maybe we should try to understand why is there so many angry people ALL OVER THE WORLD spitting and hating each other and looking for trouble...?????? (and not only religious fundamentalists)...? everywhere you look, there is conflict, blood, hatred, pain and prejudice....shell we still argue about the US??

jones101 wrote:

It took me being away from home and being immersed in other cultures to get that.

on the other hand...the US is the perfect "melting pot"...if you really want to, (although not exactly the same, but -) you don't have to travel too far to get "cultured"...just enough to talk or make friends with your neighbors...get involved in different communities,etc...good way to learn about another culture....right in front of your nose....i am not trying to be spiteful...just digressing...i know that "seeing is believing" for some...and i believe that traveling is very educational, by ALL means....but lots of people don't even make the effort "locally"...so i am very glad you had the chance to travel!! and too bad you are probably one of not too many to extend yourself that far! :) all the best!

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Edited by: moksha Mar 10, 08, 13:14 #162

RockyMason wrote:

Also in order to make it good in america ur gonna have to be competetive with them in the job market! If u can barely speak English u just won't cut it! The best u can really expect is a manual labor job which won't pay u that much! U also need a Valid college degree because its getting more and more competetive for jobs currently.

with who? the experts "imported" from abroad (who can be barely understood) due to shortage of "home grown ones" ? and why are there prompts in spanish in almost every (large) company you try to call?? is that how we encourage people to learn english by introducing "Spanish as a choice language" in business? i know quite few people, who are either immigrants with some education here and terrible english!! but successful in business due to their hard diligent work, or some who were born here but have no education (not even high school) and are business owners, doing well also...

Mali wrote:

Sure there are some people that specifically don't like Polish people but generally speaking, this 'polonophobia' is in the minds of some Polish people that like to play victim.

i agree!

DiceThreads: 20 Posts: 677 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Mar 10, 08, 13:26 #163
"Polonophobia" is not even a word. It's just a product of imagination of some Poles with a chip on their shoulder frequenting these Forums. Try to find “Polonophobia” in eny English dictionary, I dare you.

mokshaThreads: - Posts: 21 Joined: Mar 3, 08 ♀	Edited by: moksha Mar 10, 08, 13:32 #164
Lukasz wrote: It is forum about Poland and Polish history traditions not about "Why USA is better than Poland" "Why Poland will never be better than USA" oh really?...lol...i thought this forum was entitled "Polish Immigrants leave America for Europe"....?

mokshaThreads: - Posts: 21 Joined: Mar 3, 08 ♀	Mar 10, 08, 14:04 #165
Eurola wrote: Is that what you mean? I'm just being sarcastic. The World according to Americans ...lol...too funny...thanks!

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Mar 14, 08, 00:07 #166

moksha wrote:

on the other hand...the US is the perfect "melting pot"...if you really want to, (although not exactly the same, but -) you don't have to travel too far to get "cultured"...just enough to talk or make friends with your neighbors...get involved in different communities,etc...good way to learn about another culture....right in front of your nose....i am not trying to be spiteful...just digressing

Sorry but the above is completely wrong. The US may be a melting pot but it is a bastardization of nationalities and there is little if any culture here. Going to a Polish or Italian neighborhood in the US is NOTHING like being in Poland or in Italy. Not even close. The people and experience is completely different and so are peoples behavior.

Sounds like you have not traveled much.

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Edited by: RockyMason Mar 14, 08, 01:16 #167

moksha wrote:

with who? the experts "imported" from abroad (who can be barely understood) due to shortage of "home grown ones" ? and why are there prompts in spanish in almost every (large) company you try to call?? is that how we encourage people to learn english by introducing "Spanish as a choice language" in business? i know quite few people, who are either immigrants with some education here and terrible english!! but successful in business due to their hard diligent work, or some who were born here but have no education (not even high school) and are business owners, doing well also...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Okay so ur telling me that there are many executives in the USA and important business ppl who don't know english? HA Im not talking about external trading for goods i am talking about living and working in the US. Ur english is terrible i don't think ur quite understanding my post. If u mean experts yes we import a few PHDs im sure to work on very special projects. By a few i mean like less than .05% of the population.

Yes there are a few that did well... however how are u supposed to make business deals with people and fully understand the terms without knowing english? Hard work is nice but honestly there are much more important things than hard work! So gee wat sort of business were these people in... let me take a guess construction or something simple like operating a convenience store?

There are very few people in the USA who would have use for a Lawyer, CPA, PHD, MD, CEO, or just about any other highly esteemed profession without a good comprehension of the english language! =D It doesn't matter how much u know if u can't communicate it to the people who pay u for your advice or expertise! =)

There most certainly is no shortage of trained professionals in the US! Except in the medical field. There is an excess of people with Ba degrees now so the job market is more competetive than ever! Some foreigner who doesn't know english and doesn't have any sort of formal education or US employment history just can't compete with that!

Wahldo

Mar 14, 08, 05:32 #168

JacekinLAnNY wrote:

bastardization of nationalities and there is little if any culture here

The same stupid bastards and clowns that invented the airplane, lightbulb, motion picture industry, insulin, the computer, THIS THING YOU'RE TYPING ON .. THE INTERNET??? And shared it with the world , free of charge.

What has Europe given the world of late? The 35 hour work week? Yes, we know about how "cultured" you are. So much better than the fat bastards across the sea. You are the cultured ones who start the World Wars right? Put people in ovens.. dig out the gold in their teeth. Still you can't decide if you like the Nazis or the Russians.. still to this day you will lean either way, whatever the wind blows. Hypocritcal, spineless pigs you are. You are so far more evolved than us. It's very obvious. All you know is hate.

When you leave the US for these greener pastures.. you leave for good. Is that a deal? Please.. our good friends, who teach us so much, the mighty European.. can we shake on it? I'll even wash my feking "bastard" hand.

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Mar 14, 08, 07:13 #169

Wahldo wrote:

The same stupid bastards and clowns that invented the airplane, lightbulb, motion picture industry, insulin, the computer, THIS THING YOU'RE TYPING ON .. THE INTERNET??? And shared it with the world , free of charge.

americans can generally be counted on to take this attempt at what they probably think is reasoning. Inventions and discoveries are the work of individuals. Not countries or continents. The same morons say they are fighting "terrorists" while their arse is parked firmly on the sofa.

Wahldo wrote:

still to this day you will lean either way, whatever the wind blows.

this is true but is being flexible any worse than being stubborn or pig-headed?

Now if i were you, i'd worry less about the poles leaving and their opinion (everyone has one so what's the big deal anyways) of you and more about the mexicans that your government has allowed in, the number of which greatly exceeds the small trickle of poles into uk. I don't envy you guys that predicament cause i see no way you're ever going to get even a third of them back across the border and they keep coming.

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Mar 14, 08, 07:29 #170

North Americans are Polish, Irish, Spanish etc...
Our American cousins want to come home, great!
Before in Ireland,North America had the idea of the land of milk and honey (I assume communist Poland had the same idea?), where a poor man could be sucessful with the right idea. Lately however it has all gone belly up, for many reasons and Europe has (hopefully) shifted from petty disputes about lines drawn in the dirt to something a little more progressive, we have miles to go yet but North America is on the way down and The United states of Europe on the way up.
U.S.A bashing is a pass time I find most Europeans love, But you know what your man said, there is only one thing worse than being talked about, that is not being talked about.

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Mar 14, 08, 08:51 #171

Wahldo wrote:

Hypocritcal, spineless pigs you are. You are so far more evolved than us. It's very obvious. All you know is hate.

shut ya'all arrogant mouths and stop spitting at each other.....as i wrote earlier "why is there so much hate in the world???" WORLD = meaning everywhere!....and who is starting the war here, ha? when you so passionately argue to prove you are better then another, you are no less different (and only a step away) from being like Nazis...or anyone else spewing racist and supremacist slur.... think about it for a minute please, K?

RockyMason wrote:

so ur telling me that there are many executives in the USA and important business ppl who don't know english?

that is not what i said. ya, it must be my "terrible english" why you cannot understand. or is it?

RockyMason wrote:

There most certainly is no shortage of trained professionals in the US! Except in the medical field. There is an excess of people with Ba degrees now so the job market is more competetive than ever!

RockyMason....is that why US imported so many foreigners to work the IT field few years back? that's only one example....
and just because someone holds a BA degree it does not make them "an expert" or "competitive" in their field. it is a good start, but not all....com'on, i think you are smarter then to make such statements!!!
all the best!

outintheyardThreads: 37 Posts: 542 Joined: Jan 7, 08 ♂	Mar 14, 08, 08:58 #172
None of the pest engineers I work with are native US . One of the best is a palestinian. Now that is a country that has truly lost some good people as well as many other Mid east countries. Poland at least can keep some of the best at home.

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Mar 14, 08, 09:04 #173

JacekinLAnNY wrote:

Going to a Polish or Italian neighborhood in the US is NOTHING like being in Poland or in Italy.

maybe you need to do more traveling yourself. funny, how every time i decide to visit the "polish section" in my city, i immediately get the feeling of being back home....the same attitude of the sales people....the same pubs full of drunks at noon hour...etc, etc...hm. i wonder why?

and please read what i actually wrote (although not exactly the same, but...)

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Mar 14, 08, 09:07 #174

RockyMason wrote:

If u mean experts yes we import a few PHDs im sure to work on very special projects. By a few i mean like less than .05% of the population.

Wow! Then the majority of people with advanced degrees in the US are foreigners.
The total number of graduate degree holder in the US is over 16 million (2000). That is roughly 0.05333.. % of the population. So, according to your statement, foreigners account of over 93% of graduate degree holders in the US.

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07 ♂	Mar 14, 08, 09:35 #175
Wahldo wrote: The same stupid bastards and clowns that invented the airplane, lightbulb, motion picture industry, insulin, the computer, THIS THING YOU'RE TYPING ON .. THE INTERNET??? I'd just like to say that the internet was invented by an Englishman and you cant invent insulin as it is produced naturally by the body. Americans have invented lots of other stuff though.

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Mar 14, 08, 09:54 #176

Wahldo wrote:

The same stupid bastards and clowns that invented the airplane, lightbulb, motion picture industry, insulin, the computer, THIS THING YOU'RE TYPING ON .. THE INTERNET??? And shared it with the world , free of charge.

airplane - first successful flights in Europe in mid 19th century

lightbulb - many models existed before Edison, who btw. purchased a patent of a modified bulb from a Canadian inventor.

motion picture industry - how is selling of something an invention?

insulin - was first discovered by a German, Paul Langerhans

the computer - In 1623, Wilhelm Schickard built the first digital mechanical calculator and thus became the father of the computing era. Ada Byron (British) is consideredc the first computer programmer.

the internet - started with the creation of ARPA where Lawrence Roberts started working on the implementation of the network. He based his work on publications by Paul Baran on packet switching. Paul Baran was born in Grodno, Poland.

ZgubionyThreads: 21 Posts: 2,037 Joined: Oct 20, 06 ♂	Mar 14, 08, 10:16 #177
Have all of you really turned this into a pissing contest? Just about very nation is responsible for inventing something wonderful/not so wonderful in this world. We also all work together to perfect this product so it benefits everyone. Why must you all argue over who's better?

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07 ♂	Mar 14, 08, 10:21 #178
Zgubiony wrote: Why must you all argue over who's better?

ZgubionyThreads: 21 Posts: 2,037 Joined: Oct 20, 06 ♂	Mar 14, 08, 10:42 #179
I'd like to see what you've posted, but I have a firewall at work blocking you tube...or whatever it is you posted.

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Mar 14, 08, 11:04 #180

z_darius wrote:

the internet - started with the creation of ARPA where Lawrence Roberts started working on the implementation of the network. He based his work on publications by Paul Baran on packet switching. Paul Baran was born in Grodno, Poland.

It is difficult to narrow the inventor of the internet down to one person or invention but Tim Berners Lee is widely accepted as the inventor of the internet as he was the creator of embedded hyperlinking between web pages. Without this the internet is just a big network of unrelated data. This is what has made the internet possible more than any other single creation.

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