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Polish leader urges EU to keep generous aid funds

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Sep 2, 10, 01:29 #1

Polish President Bronislaw Komorowski urged European Union governments Wednesday to preserve large EU funds for poor regions when the bloc overhauls its 130 billion euros ($164.3 billion) annual budget.

The EU's 27 countries will launch negotiations next year on the shape of the 2014-2021 budget. Many politicians are calling for austerity following the global economic crisis, which has emptied government coffers and increased national debts.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68042A20100901

Should EU continue to keep generous aid funds to Poland?

Or should Poland take some responsibility and pay and receive like everyone else?

I do understand Polands situation and that the region needs those funds to develop so it can reach an "EU" standard. But maybe it's time for Poland to stand on its own feet?

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Edited by: jwojcie Sep 2, 10, 11:36 #2

David_18:

Or should Poland take some responsibility and pay and receive like everyone else?

Specify "every one else". Because if you look at this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Per_capita_benefit_ from_EU_for_budget_period_2007-2013_-_vertical.png

You will see that Poland is among 17 others of 27 who are net beneficiares of EU budget, and not the biggest one per capita. So why focus on Poland. What is more, why focus on any country, when in fact the base entity is a region not a country? It is almost certain that in a few years Masovian Voivodeship will be net payer (or, if Warsaw will be excluded from overall poor region, then only Warsaw...).

So, the question is not: should Poland pay more? the question is rather do you support current EU policy which is to lever up modernization of poorer regions?
Besides what do you expect as an answer from most of Poles when one of the main reasons why Poland accessed EU was because of exactly that kind of policy? It worked for Spain (regardles recent problems) probably it will work for Poland too. In the end, Poland will be net payer if GDP will be bigger then average.

Last but not least you should check carefully what companies are building Polish highways... Among many Polish ones, you will find many Western ones. Some of those EU funds finds a way home in the end, that is the case in many fields of EU support... As much as maybe some Germans or Swedes are mad because of the fact that they pay more than get in EU budget statistics, fact is that many of their building companies are flourishing in Poland thanks to those EU funds. What is probably more important for them, they will finally get decent connection with Moscow wich is what they always dreamed of, but this time trough peaceful means ;-)

Polands position on the map is both a curse and blessing. Now is the blessing time.

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Sep 2, 10, 12:22 #3
jwojcie: So, the question is not: should Poland pay more? the question is rather do you support current EU policy which is to lever up modernization of poorer regions? Do agricultural subsidies modernize poorer regions? Is the output of that worth the money that goes into it?

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Sep 2, 10, 12:36 #4

convex:

Do agricultural subsidies modernize poorer regions? Is the output of that worth the money that goes into it?

Well agricultural subsidies may not directly modernize poorer regions but often times they do help to keep the cost of living down by keeping foods cheaper. They can also promote job growth. Those things in turn can help "modernize" a city starting with the people by increasing their quality of living. I think it depends on how the sector receiving the subsidies choose to react to the help it's being given.

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Sep 2, 10, 12:59 #5

CzarDaniel:

Unfortunately it's just superficial. Real growth comes through modernizing farms. If the Dutch do a great job growing onions, promote investment in joint ventures to make farming more efficient in Poland, and let supply and demand take care of the prices. Subsidies keeps poor communities poor and dependent on EU hand outs. They'll never be competitive.

delphiandomineThreads: 40 Posts: 9,585 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂	Sep 2, 10, 13:12 #6
\ convex: Do agricultural subsidies modernize poorer regions? Is the output of that worth the money that goes into it? No, they don't. The current implementation of the CAP rewards large landowners and yet pays barely enough for small farms to exist - it's a terrible system and doesn't promote reform at all.

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Edited by: jwojcie Sep 2, 10, 13:35 #7

convex:

Do agricultural subsidies modernize poorer regions? Is the output of that worth the money that goes into it?

Agricultural subsidies is a tricky subject, I don't feel I have enough info to made hard opinion on this one. But regarding your questions: first: yes they do at least in Poland, second: it would be nice to see some stats.

The entirely other issue is do I support it. Thing is that in Poland those subsidies are in a way a social issue and highly political one. In short farmers were one of the group hitted hardest in 90', their support for EU entry was partially buyed by those subsidies. There is still to many people working in that sector, farms are still to small. Therefore I don't see political posibility to stop any funds for farmers. Simply speaking those funds are a life line in Poland in transitional period in which bigger farms are forming. Probably it would happen faster without it but with much more social cost.

Least but not last Poland is far from being the biggest recipient of those funds.

PS. I've found nice article (but in Polish) about direction of agricultural changes in Poland:
http://versita.metapress.com/content/e74t37022741t513/fulltext.pdf

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂	Sep 14, 10, 23:14 #8
Polish leader urges EU to keep generous aid funds mistake

noreenbThreads: 3 Posts: 952 Joined: Apr 22, 09 ♀	Sep 15, 10, 00:03 #9
David_18 Should EU continue to keep generous aid funds to Poland? I notice that you are too brave and not humble enough with "politically failed" questions. Crow mistake Agreed.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 00:54 #10
Debts debts debts! Why analyse deeper when we all know the repercussions that lie in waiting? :( Poles, wake up! There's no such thing as a free meal and quit trying to see it as charity. Modern day Germany has more than covered the tab and excessive payouts won't help either in the long-run.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,049 Joined: May 26, 08 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 11:38 #11
Seanus: Modern day Germany has more than covered the tab and excessive payouts won't help either in the long-run. No, they've not covered the tab. Nor should they be expected to do so.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 11:49 #12
Generous ? ****! What the heck Russia has to do with it?

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Edited by: hague1cmaeron Sep 15, 10, 12:13 #13

My guess is that they will probably come out reasonably well out of the budget, not least on account of the fact that Lwandowski is responsible for the EU budget(: but i suspect that this time around the EU will be a little less generous.

And yes Poland is a net recipient of EU funds, but probably it will be a net contributor in say about 2015. My suggestion to the EU would be that next time you open membership to new countries, let a bit of time elapse so that the EU is not struggling to come up with funds.

So if the Ukraine is to join at least some 15 years should elapse before that happens, about 20 years for Turkey.

♂

Edited by: convex Sep 15, 10, 12:31 #14

hague1cmaeron:

And yes Poland is a net recipient of EU funds, but probably it will be a net contributor in say about 2015. My suggestion to the EU would be that next time you open membership to new countries, let a bit of time elapse so that the EU is not struggling to come up with funds.

Poland will be a net recipient for plenty of time to come. Ireland, Portugal, and Spain are still net recipients, I don't see Poland conjuring up 65 billion for the EU anytime soon.,,Especially considering the level of consumer debt.

Turkey is miles ahead of the Ukraine. Infrastructure wise, they're more on par with Poland. EU membership would harm Turkey more than it helps. Ukraine on the other hand absolutely needs the EU to keep from collapsing in on itself..

hague1cmaeronThreads: 20 Posts: 1,519 Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂	Edited by: hague1cmaeron Sep 15, 10, 12:36 #15
Yes you are right, I just had a look at the stats. I would change it around then and give Turkey about 10-15 and the Ukraine about 20. convex: Ireland Is Ireland still a net recipient, are you sure? Because at one stage i believe they enjoyed the highest standard of living in Europe.

convexThreads: 47 Posts: 7,189 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 12:47 #16
hague1cmaeron: Is Ireland still a net recipient, are you sure? Because at one stage i believe they enjoyed the highest standard of living in Europe. Yea, the EU is a scam :) Belgium and Luxembourg are also net recipients due to the companies that are based there. Ahh, good ole corporate welfare.

hague1cmaeronThreads: 20 Posts: 1,519 Joined: Mar 30, 10 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 12:53 #17
convex: Yea, the EU is a scam :) Belgium and Luxembourg are also net recipients due to the companies that are based there. Ahh, good ole corporate welfare. I have obviously got to do some extra research! I knew that French farmers did quite well out of the cap system, but that is something else(:

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Sep 15, 10, 13:07 #18

hague1cmaeron:

I have obviously got to do some extra research! I knew that French farmers did quite well out of the cap system, but that is something else(:

The rebate and CAP are a joke as well. A good chunk of the EU budget goes to farmers not so that they can farm more efficiently or feed us cheaper, it's so that they can preserve their lifestyle. No one is paying me to sit at home and watch TV, I like that lifestyle. Farmers make up a tiny percentage of EU citizens, yet collect a huge amount of the welfare. It makes no sense at all.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 16:48 #19
hague1cmaeron: the highest standard of living in Europe. Well nobody told me!

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 18:58 #20
Polish leader urges EU to keep generous aid funds why official Poland humiliate Polish people?

FlaglessPoleThreads: 7 Posts: 1,337 Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 19:01 #21
Crow: why official Poland humiliate Polish people? so that in the future they don't have to be humiliated further by being compared to Serbia...?

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 19:09 #22
FlaglessPole: so that in the future they don't have to be humiliated further by being compared to Serbia...? if that post of yours makes you happy then it suits me, too

FlaglessPoleThreads: 7 Posts: 1,337 Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 19:15 #23
no it actually saddens me, so I apologize for this under-the-belt jab but damn Crow where you get your ideas from is absolutely beyond me.

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 20:14 #24
FlaglessPole: no it actually saddens me, so I apologize for this under-the-belt jab but damn Crow where you get your ideas from is absolutely beyond me. no problem man. Simple, its from the life experience. i learned that EU does not exist to strengthen Slavic countries but, on the contrary, to weaken them

FlaglessPoleThreads: 7 Posts: 1,337 Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 20:28 #25
Crow: problem man. Simple, its from the life experience. i learned that EU does not exist to strengthen Slavic countries but, on the contrary, to weaken them I beg to differ, all the current Slavic members of EU have benefitted greatly from the membership, the one closest to you Slovenia is a prime example.

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Edited by: Crow Sep 15, 10, 20:51 #26

FlaglessPole:

I beg to differ, all the current Slavic members of EU have benefitted greatly from the membership, the one closest to you Slovenia is a prime example.

benefited?

one simplistic example. these days Serbia is overrun by Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians. They coming to Serbia to buy all kind of things, especially cigarettes. When we Serbs see how are they all desperate, that we in Serbia live batter then they live and, in the same time we know that we were devastated by NATO and that EU in every opportunity making problems to us,... we clearly see how is EU great joke, great ugly joke

BDW, Slovenians, as they themselves admits, lived much batter in Slavic Union called Yugoslavia, then they live now in Anglo-Germanic Union called EU.

FlaglessPoleThreads: 7 Posts: 1,337 Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂	Sep 15, 10, 20:57 #27
so cigarettes are cheaper in Serbia, ergo the neighboring EU countries are enslaved... oh c'mon you need to do better than that

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂	Edited by: Crow Sep 15, 10, 20:59 #28
FlaglessPole: so cigarettes are cheaper in Serbia, cheaper and you have enough of it for all who desire too kill itself with it (what is their democratic right). Plus, its not only about cigarettes BDW, i heard that Poles massively buy cigarettes and oil in Byelorussia. Is that truth?

FlaglessPoleThreads: 7 Posts: 1,337 Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂	Edited by: FlaglessPole Sep 15, 10, 21:07 #29
can't answer that as I don't live in Poland, but it wouldn't suprise me as the BY economy is in shambles, soviet style state-run, so some goods overthere are bound to be cheap for Poles.

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Sep 15, 10, 21:25 #30

jwojcie:

Last but not least you should check carefully what companies are building Polish highways... Among many Polish ones, you will find many Western ones. Some of those EU funds finds a way home in the end, that is the case in many fields of EU support... As much as maybe some Germans or Swedes are mad because of the fact that they pay more than get in EU budget statistics, fact is that many of their building companies are flourishing in Poland thanks to those EU funds. What is probably more important for them, they will finally get decent connection with Moscow wich is what they always dreamed of, but this time trough peaceful means Polands position on the map is both a curse and blessing. Now is the blessing time.

Very good points.

More funds for Poland.

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