Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last.

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Oct 23, 10, 19:48 #1

The main sore issues that Poles are submiting to Lithuanian government:

1. The refusal to acknowledge the Polish spelling of Polish minority`s surnames and names of streets and settlements.
2. The refusal to solve the problem with land/property ownership.
3. The obstruction over the Możejki oil refinery owned by Poles who bought it for hard cash to save Lithuania from Russian domination.

It is high time to kick some Lithuanian asses.

The same asses that we protected from Russians for a few centuries.

If I am wrong, correct me. :):):)

http://www.thenews.pl/international/?id=142115

Poland’s Foreign Ministry says that Lithuania’s lack of respect for its Polish minority’s rights is “not acceptable”, in a conflict which has brought diplomatic relations between the two neighbours to a new historic low.
The European Voice, published in Brussels, described relations between Poles and Lithuanians this week as “the worst in Europe”.
The Foreign Ministry in Warsaw has described as ‘regrettable’ Lithuania’s failure to respond to Warsaw’s gestures made towards Vilnius in recent years and speaks of imminent diplomatic action concerning the Polish ethnic minority in Lithuania.
In an official statement, the ministry says that a lack of respect for the rights of the Polish minority “will not be accepted”.

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Edited by: guesswho Oct 23, 10, 19:56 #2

pawian:

The main sore issues that Poles are submiting to Lithuanian government:

1. The refusal to acknowledge the Polish spelling of Polish minority`s surnames and names of streets and settlements.
2. The refusal to solve the problem with land/property ownership.
3. The obstruction over the Możejki oil refinery owned by Poles who bought it for hard cash to save Lithuania from Russian domination.

It is high time to kick some Lithuanian asses.

The same asses that we protected from Russians for a few centuries.

If I am wrong, correct me. :):):)

I'm not surprised, most of Lithuanians I've met, weren't talking good about Poles.
What you guys call Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, they called occupation.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 23, 10, 20:03 #3

About time!

pawian:

names of streets and settlements

And we're only asking for bilingual street names and signs in Polish minority dominated
areas not in the entire Lithuania, and they refuse us even that! (in areas where Poles
are MAJORITY)

Our help, be it political (constant and unchangeable support), economic (buying Możejki refinery
to help Lithuania get less dependent from Russia, for example) or military (our planes
patroling their airspace, tanks, afv's and artillery guns given to their army for free), was met
with hostility and resentment, manifesting itself in fact of refusing our minority its most basic
rights. The regulations regarding Polish schools are being changed intentionally in a way that
makes it very hard or, in some cases, impossible for Polish children to attend Polish schools,
Poles can't spell their names in their own language and they can't even have street names
and signs in Polish, even though it is a normal practice in Europe - for example German
minority in Poland has bilingual signs in some areas.

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Oct 23, 10, 20:08 #4

Torq:

And we're only asking for bilingual street names and signs in Polish minority dominated
areas not in the entire Lithuania, and they refuse us even that! (in areas where Poles
are MAJORITY)

So if Poles are the majority in a part of London (for example) should London change it's street names to Polish?
and should the same apply to the Russians who live in Lithuania and London?

Can I have my street named after me? :)

Torq:

buying Możejki refinery
to help Lithuania get less dependent from Russia,

"you" did not buy it for that reason... that's very funny that you twist it like that.

Torq:

our planes
patroling their airspace, tanks, afv's and artillery guns given to their army for free

You mean for fear of Mother Russia.

♂

Edited by: pawian Oct 23, 10, 20:09 #5

guesswho:

What you guys call Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, they called occupation.

Exactly. They prefer not to remember that, I already said it above, we saved their asses from Russians since 15 century. It was always Polish troops who made the physical and moral majority in Commonwealth armies, fighting in Lithuanian fields of glory.
Let`s be frank, without Poland`s enormous aid, Lithuania would have been subjugated by Russians at the beginning of 16 century and today they would be a solid, faithful, loyal part of the Russian Federation.
They would love Russia, like Eastern Ukrainians.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Oct 23, 10, 20:13 #6
pawian: Lithuania would have been subjugated by Russians at the beginning of 16 century and today they would be a solid, faithful, loyal part of the Russian Federation. But Lithuania were subjugated by Russians and , until recently, they were a solid, faithful, loyal (on paper anyway) part of the Russian Federation.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Oct 23, 10, 20:13 #7
SeanBM: "you" did not buy it for that reason... that's very funny that you twist it like that. Sean, it is true. It was in times of Kaczyński`s government. He paid through the nose to keep Russians away. It was/is his obsession.

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Edited by: SeanBM Oct 23, 10, 20:16 #8

I travelled around Lithuania 22 years ago and I lived there for a few years.

It is true that Polish people are disliked but Lithuanians seem to think they are justified in doing so.

Józef Piłsudski took Vilnius by force, that is what they remember.

Polish people go to Vilnius to look for the "Polishness" of the country.
Lithuanians don't like that but seem to enjoy the masses of Polish tourist's money

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,399 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Oct 23, 10, 20:21 #9
SeanBM: but Lithuania were subjugated by Russians and , until recently, they were a solid, faithful, loyal part of the Russian Federation. But the subjugation took place much later than 16 century.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 23, 10, 20:23 #10

guesswho:

What you guys call Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, they called occupation.

They're idiots.

Some FACTS from Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth history for everyone:

1. In Commonwealth, Lithuania was a completely independent country. It was NOT Polish,
but Lithuanian army stationing there and public income went NOT into Polish, but into
Lithuanian treasury. Lithuanians paid taxes for their own country.

2. POLES DID NOT RULE LITHUANIA. Lithuania governed itself, having their own army,
their own treasury and their own separate ministries. The government of Poland
was NOT the government of Lithuania. Kanclerz, Podskarbi or Hetman Koronny had
nothing to say in Lithuania, because there were SEPARATE: Lithuanian hetman,
Lithuanian podskarbi and even Lithuanian kanclerz.

To cut the long story short, during the Commonwealth era, Lithuania was always
governed by Lithuanians - never by Poles! From the lowest local authority (podsędek
powiatowy) up to Kanclerz Wielki - they were all Lithuanians.

3. The common things in Poland and Lithuania were: the King and Sejm Walny (Joint
Parliament). That was a result of LITHUANIAN DYNASTY RULING POLAND - yes ladies
and gentlemen - Lithuanian dynasty of Jagiellons were ruling the Commonwealth, so if
anyone could feel occupied it was POLAND, NOT LITHUANIA! The Commowealth was
completely Lithuanian-dominated.

So, why don't Lithuanians cut the crap and admit that they governed their country
THEMSELVES (and milked Poland at the same time.) We bled ourselves dry, fighting eastern
wars for Lithuania on the steppes of Ukraine and Russia, when we should have concentrated
our efforts on Polish interests in the West.

guesswhoThreads: 23 Posts: 3,326 Joined: Mar 17, 10 ♀	Oct 23, 10, 20:24 #11
pawian: since 15 century What I was told was that the problem with Poles goes back almost 600 years ago when the king Jagiello ordered to kill his uncle, the prince Vytautas of Lithuania.

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Oct 23, 10, 20:24 #12

pawian:

But the subjugation took place much later than 16 century.

So what is your point?
Did Poland help Lithuania to become independent from Russia?
I have not heard that story.

guesswho:

What you guys call Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, they called occupation.

I have never heard this but I have noticed that Lithuanians are not so boastful about that period with Poland as Polish museums are.

♂

Oct 23, 10, 20:26 #13

Torq:

they can't even have street names and signs in Polish, even though it is a normal practice in Europe

Are you sure Torq? In the Netherlands we have areas were the majority of the people are Turks or Maroccans. And in England there are areas where the majority are Pakistani or Indians. In France there are districts where just about everyone is Algerian. You can find similar situations in Germany, Belgium and Italy as well. I can't see why the street names and signs in those areas should be in Turkish, Arab, Urdu, Hindi or whatever foreign language.

But maybe this is a very sensitive subject indeed.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Oct 23, 10, 20:29 #14
Stu: But maybe this is a very sensitive subject indeed. What I think is, Poles and Lithuanians don't talk, they remember their own (self promoting) histories and they don't match up to each others. Poles go on about the great Lithuanian Polish commonwealth, that was a long long time ago. A lot has happened since then.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 23, 10, 20:29 #15

Stu:

Are you sure Torq? In the Netherlands we have areas were the majority of the people are Turks or Maroccans. And in England there are areas where the majority are Pakistani or Indians. In France there are districts where just about everyone is Algerian. You can find similar situations in Germany, Belgium and Italy as well. I can't see why the street names and signs in those areas should be in Turkish, Arab, Urdu, Hindi or whatever foreign language.

I am talking about NEIGHBOURING EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, with minorities consisting not
of immigrants, but of people who were always there (like German minority in Poland
for example, or Polish minority in Lithuania, Ukraine or Belarus.)

And there are EU regulations for such minorities' rights - regulations, which Lithuania breaks.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Oct 23, 10, 20:30 #16
Just a little reminder of what Lithuanians think: Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Oct 23, 10, 20:34 #17
SeanBM: Just a little reminder of what Lithuanians think: Piłsudski, like Hitler and Stalin (according to some Lithuanians) Yes - I said there exactly what I've said in this thread (post no.10). Pure facts against Lithuanian bullcrap.

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Edited by: pawian Oct 23, 10, 20:43 #18

Torq:

which Lithuania breaks.

Unfortunately, yes.

Besides, Lithuanian minority in Poland enjoys all their rights.

Here, a bilingual sign in Poland:

Torq:

To cut the long story short, during the Commonwealth era, Lithuania was always
governed by Lithuanians - never by Poles! From the lowest local authority (podsędek
powiatowy) up to Kanclerz Wielki - they were all Lithuanians.

Yes.

Is it a Polish fault that Lithuanian nobility and other elite groups prefered to speak Polish and adopt Polish customs/culture? Nobody forced that on them.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Edited by: Torq Oct 23, 10, 20:48 #19
pawian: Besides, Lithuanian minority in Poland enjoys all their rights. Here, a bilingual sign in Poland: Thank you, Pawian. That's exactly what I'm talking about - Poland follows the EU minority rights regulations, while Lithuanians, apparently, think that they can break them at will. It's about time for somebody to prove them wrong.

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Edited by: SeanBM Oct 23, 10, 20:49 #20

Torq:

Pure facts against Lithuanian bullcrap.

I think, if Poland and Lithuania sat down around a table and talked about what happened.
That Pilsudski might not have acted in the best interests of Lithunanians and that Lithuanians are not acting in the best interest of their Polish minority.
I think that you would both realize you still don't like each other.

Poland sees itself as stuck between Germany and Russia, Lithuania see itself stuck between Poland and Russia.

Both are fiercely proud people, who need their independence after all that has happened.

Do I sound like I am defending Lithuania? I don't mean to, i awlays said that Lithuania should go to war with Latvia or Estonia, just to give them something to do because they keep living in the past and mourning/moaning...

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 23, 10, 20:54 #21

SeanBM:

That Pilsudski might not have acted in the best interests of Lithunanians and that Lithuanians are not acting in the best interest of their Polish minority.

Sean... please... and I mean - PLEASE!

"Piłsudski acted against Lithuania, so Lithuanians are not acting in best interest of Polish minority in 2010."
Well, that's just great. How about Poland revokes all German minority rights because
of WW2, or how about we do something against Turks or Swedes in Poland, for their
countries' former invasions?

Lithuanians have to realize that it is 2010, and we don't need a round table for that.

SeanBM:

Both are fiercely proud people, who need their independence after all that has happened.

Sure.

However, we respect their minority rights - they don't respect ours.
We show constant signs of friendship and good will - they answer with signs of animosity and resentment.

If that's how they want it - let it be.

♂

Edited by: SeanBM Oct 23, 10, 20:57 #22

Torq:

Lithuanians have to realize that it is 2010 and we don't need a round table for that.

I don't think round table talks would help.

You're both stubborn proud people who dwell on the past.
Poland thinks of the commonwealth, Lithuania of the Piłsudski.

I see Polish people swelling full of pride when discussing that part of Poland up the north East (Lithuania).
even your own comments at the beginning of this thread show how much you "care" for Lithuania and how thankful they should be.

Torq:

Our help, be it political (constant and unchangeable support), economic (buying Możejki refinery
to help Lithuania get less dependent from Russia, for example) or military (our planes
patroling their airspace, tanks, afv's and artillery guns given to their army for free)

pawian:

we saved their asses from Russians since 15 century. It was always Polish troops who made the physical and moral majority in Commonwealth armies, fighting in Lithuanian fields of glory.
Let`s be frank, without Poland`s enormous aid, Lithuania would have been subjugated by Russians at the beginning of 16 century and today they would be a solid, faithful, loyal part of the Russian Federation.
They would love Russia, like Eastern Ukrainians.

They see right through that. Truth is Poland didn't really help Lithuania, it used it as a buffer zone, sound familiar yet?

Torq:

If that's how they want it - let it be.

I didn't say they were a forgiving people ;)

As always though, the future is in the young and the young people do bring something new to the table, especially since the freedom of movement they have in the E.U.
So I wouldn't worry too much :)

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Oct 23, 10, 21:03 #23

SeanBM:

i see Polish people feeling full of pride when discussing that part of Poland up the north East (Lithuania).

Where did I refer to Lithuania as "that part of Poland up the north East"?

I think I wrote something absolutely opposite (about Lithuania always being
completely independent in the Commowealth era.)

SeanBM:

even your own comments at the beginning of this thread show how much you "care" for Lithuania and how thankful they should be. They see right through that.

Is it all that you understood from my posts (especially the no.10)? Read it again then... and again.

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Edited by: SeanBM Oct 23, 10, 21:06 #24

Torq:

Where did I refer to Lithuania as "that part of Poland up the north East"?

Your post was full of disgust at the "fact" that Lithuanians were not appreciative of Poland buying an oil refinery, you even gave a bogus notion as to Poland "helping' Lithuania break from Russia, it is condescending IMO. and they don't appreciate being used as a buffer zone by Poland from Russia, sound familiar?

Torq:

Is it all that you understood from my posts (especially the no.10)? Read it again then... and again.

That is not the post I quoted.

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Edited by: pawian Oct 23, 10, 21:10 #25

SeanBM:

Poland thinks of the commonwealth, Lithuania of the Piłsudski.

Poles tend to forget or not realise that during WW2 Lithuanians actively helped Soviets and Nazis to exterminate Poles, not only in Lithuania but also in Poland. Lithuanian SS troops stationed in occupied Poland were the first to carry out anti-Polish oppression. AK soldiers remember them as eager to engage in combat against Polish underground and very dangerous.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Oct 23, 10, 21:11 #26
pawian: Poles tend to forget or not realise that during WW2 Lithuanians actively helped Soviets and Nazis to exterminate Poles, not only in Lithuania but also in Poland. Lithuanian SS troops stationed in occupied Poland were the first and most eager to carry out anti-Polish oppression. Have you a link for that, please? I know that they were hell bent on killing Jews.

MEMBER ♂

Oct 23, 10, 21:12 #27

SeanBM:

Your post was full of disgust at the "fact" that Lithuanians were not appreciative of Poland buying an oil refinery, you even gave a bogus notion as to why and they don't appreciate being used as a buffer zone from Russia.

The oil refinery was only one of many things that I mentioned and it was not "a bogus notion"
that I gave. It is exactly as Pawian said...

pawian:

Sean, it is true. It was in times of Kaczyński`s government. He paid through the nose to keep Russians away. It was/is his obsession.

...we did it to help Lithuanians get less dependent from Russia (annoying Moscow was only
a nice bonus for us :))

SeanBM:

they don't appreciate being used as a buffer zone from Russia

A buffer zone from Russia the size of two vojwodships? Yer havin' a laugh...

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Oct 23, 10, 21:15 #28

SeanBM:

Have you a link for that, please?
I know that they were hell bent on killing Jews.

Yes, Jews were main victims of Nazi extermination aided by Lithuanian forces. But Poles and other nationalities too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponary_massacre

The Polish victims were mostly members of Polish intelligentsia (teachers, professors of the Stefan Batory University like Kazimierz Pelczar, priests like Romuald Świrkowski) and members of Armia Krajowa resistance movement

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Edited by: SeanBM Oct 23, 10, 21:16 #29

Torq:

The oil refinery was only one of many things that I mentioned and it was not "a bogus notion"
that I gave. It is exactly as Pawian said...

It was not to help the Lithuanians, it was in Poland's self interest.

It was a catastrophe anyway, They found over 30 hidden microphones in the plant, a fire (suspected arson), etc...

Torq:

...we did it to help Lithuanians get less dependent from Russia (annoying Moscow was only
a nice bonus for us :))

Buffer zone.

Torq:

A buffer zone from Russia the size of two vojwodships? Yer havin' a laugh...

So Poland is just helping the Lithuanians?
You are the one having a laugh, so let us laugh together :)

pawian:

Yes, Jews were main victims of Nazi extermination aided by Lithuanian forces. But Poles and other nationalities too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponary_massacre

The way i heard it from Lithuanians, was that they needed very little prompting from the Nazis to kill the Jews (they saw it as an opportunity) and that it was they who did the majority of the exterminating, not the Germans.
I have never heard such Antisemitic comments as I did in Lithuania, it blew my mind, especially given the history.

MEMBER ♂

Oct 23, 10, 21:20 #30

SeanBM:

So Poland is just helping the Lithuanians?

Poland is trying to conduct diplomatic relations in a proper manner (one has to be civil, you know.)
We are just trying to co-operate with them normally, as any two neighbouring EU countries
should. Simple as that.

Hate to quote myself, but...

Torq:

However, we respect their minority rights - they don't respect ours.
We show constant signs of friendship and good will - they answer with signs of animosity
and resentment.

... that's how it is.

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