Polish PM Tusk- dictator or not? What Poles think?

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Edited by: gumishu Mar 8, 11, 00:40 #121

delphiandomine:

Pretty simple - the longer people can vote, the more likely they will.

so you find it that simple yes? - so if voting is twice as long as before the turn out should be like twice as much, yes?
you think this 50 per cent turnout is because these poor people simply could not get to vote yes??
God save us from compulsory voting amen

delphiandomine:

Certainly, all sides in Poland are guilty of law breaking and childish behaviour. This is nothing new to those of us that follow Polish politics.

childish behaviour of Gazeta Wyborcza hehe - I call it simply manipulative and cynical (cynical because the fine for such act is petty in comparison to GW money)(what kind of example this gives to the society at large) - and equating a couple of ardent PiS supporters with a national (and arguably the most influential) press title - btw most (if not all other) national newspapers and even internet media restrained from violating the electoral law by publishing the latest voting preferences on the eve of the election -

delphiandomine:

- now that we have more or less bipatrisan media, there's really no need to silence anyone.

what do you call bi-partisan media I'm pretty curious - and how do you call PO attempts to overtake (and presumably silence) 'Rzeczpospolita' - btw I would say Rzeczpospolita seems to harbour a diversity of views as opposed to GW (but I am just an internet reader)

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Mar 8, 11, 00:42 #122
gumishu: so if voting is twice as long as before the turn out should be like twice as much, yes? No. But it should be a bit larger.

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Mar 8, 11, 00:48 #123

gumishu:

so you find it that simple yes? - so if voting is twice as long as before the turn out should be like twice as much, yes? you think this 50 per cent turnout is because these poor people simply could not get to vote yes??
God save us from compulsory voting amen

It won't be double, but it might increase turnout from 50% to around 60-65%. Not worth it in my view - but obviously PO feel that there's a need for it.

gumishu:

childish behaviour of Gazeta Wyborcza hehe - I call it simply manipulative and cynical (cynical because the fine for such act is petty in comparison to GW money)(what kind of example this gives to the society at large) - and equating a couple of ardent PiS supporters with a national (and arguably the most influential) press title - btw most (if not all other) national newspapers and even internet media restrained from violating the electoral law by publishing the latest voting preferences on the eve of the election -

The problem is that this isn't just one example of PiS - but rather something that was going on throughout the country. There was a very strong suggestion during the Presidential campaign that PiS-sympathetic priests were breaking the law in Eastern Poland, for instance.

But - I don't recall GW posting anything during the electoral silence. I followed both elections pretty closely, and nothing was mentioned on the site, except what was previously published.

gumishu:

what do you call bi-partisan media I'm pretty curious - and how do you call PO attempts to overtake (and presumably silence) 'Rzeczpospolita' - btw I would say Rzeczpospolita seems to harbour a diversity of views as opposed to GW (but I am just an internet reader)

What are these attempts? I've never heard anything about PO attempting to silence Rzeczpospolita.

Gazeta Wyborcza is unashamedly against PiS and everything they stand for. Is that really a problem, given the latest revelations about Marta Kaczynska's husband?

It certainly seems that most of the protests against Gazeta Wyborcza is that their journalists are just too damned good at digging up things that people don't want to be dug up.

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Mar 8, 11, 00:52 #124

jonni:

gumishu:
so if voting is twice as long as before the turn out should be like twice as much, yes?

No. But it should be a bit larger.

like being driven by media hype (PiS is winning - let's save Poland)
this can be this simple - as the psychological mechanism in many Polish people is simple (the way the media wanted it to be) - they are utterly fed up with PO but the fear (I call it irrational you call it what you want - well for some people it is actually rational but they are in big minority) of PiS winning can be enough for many to go and vote in PiS's spite - this is perfect media training I'd say

my point is simple - those who want to vote (with marginal exceptions) were always able to do so

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Mar 8, 11, 00:56 #125
That's actually a very astute point. So who should win? I'm disappointed a bit with Platforma myself.

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Mar 8, 11, 00:58 #126

gumishu:

this can be this simple - as the psychological mechanism in many Polish people is simple (the way the media wanted it to be) - they are utterly fed up with PO but the fear (I call it irrational you call it what you want - well for some people it is actually rational but they are in big minority) of PiS winning can be enough for many to go and vote in PiS's spite - this is perfect media training I'd say

Actually, you're not far off the truth as I see it.

People might hate Tusk, but they'll vote PO to simply prevent PiS from gaining power. It's the same reason why the SLD might be going well at the minute, but in the election, PO will win simply to avoid the very scary prospect of PiS in the government.

PiS really did blow it - if they had got rid of Kaczynski, adopted an honest Catholic-Socialist programme without all of the crap and deliberately played on certain aspects, they'd be in with a real chance of winning. But - unfortunately - Kaczynski won't relinquish power for the good of the party - and that is what will cost them in October.

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Mar 8, 11, 01:00 #127

gumishu:

But - I don't recall GW posting anything during the electoral silence. I followed both elections pretty closely, and nothing was mentioned on the site, except what was previously published.

because I meant a different election in the 90's -as I have said I don't recall which election this was - it may have been a couple years before internet was widely popular - I have read about it in a paper edition of a political paper

btw here's the link to the news about voting cards found over 100 kilometers from their electoral committee found near paper mill which also recycles old paper (all of the cards were votes for Kaczyński in last presidential election) http://www.wykop.pl/ramka/587777/czy-sfalszowano-ostatnie-wybory-prezy denckie/ - the article mentions a previous article in Toruń edition of Gazeta Wyborcza (must have been paper edition - don't know if it also appeared in the internet edition)

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Mar 8, 11, 01:03 #128

gumishu:

because I meant a different election in the 90's -as I have said I don't recall which election this was - it may have been a couple years before internet was widely popular - I have read about it in a paper edition of a political paper

Oh, come on, it was the 90's. Completely different country - it sounds totally unrecognisable compared to Poland today.

gumishu:

btw here's the link to the news about voting cards found over 100 kilometers from their electoral committee found near paper mill which also recycles old paper (all of the cards were votes for Kaczyński in last presidential election) http://www.wykop.pl/ramka/587777/czy-sfalszowano-ostatnie-wybory-prezy denckie/ - the article mentions a previous article in Toruń edition of Gazeta Wyborcza (must have been paper edition - don't know if it also appeared in the internet edition)

It's certainly an odd story - but this is Poland - is it any surprise that someone didn't destroy them like they should have been?

But in all of this - I'm very much convinced that PiS have actually blown it themselves. They may very well have won the Presidential election if they had nominated someone who was truly independent, after all.

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Edited by: gumishu Mar 8, 11, 01:10 #129

delphiandomine:

What are these attempts? I've never heard anything about PO attempting to silence Rzeczpospolita.

http://www.gazetaprawna.pl/wiadomosci/artykuly/458968,jest_wniosek_o_r ozwiazanie_presspubliki_spolki_wydawcy_rzeczpospolitej.html
an excerpt - Według Presserwisu, działanie PW "Rzeczpospolita" może też oznaczać próbę odzyskania tytułu "Rzeczpospolita" przez Skarb Państwa.

this is the first thing I found - Gazeta Prawna is a competitor of Rzeczpospolita (it acquired Dziennik the year before last)

delphiandomine:

But in all of this - I'm very much convinced that PiS have actually blown it themselves. They may very well have won the Presidential election if they had nominated someone who was truly independent, after all.

tell me what was the gap between Kaczyński and Komorowski in the final results of the second turn - it is even more interesting how much this gap was in actual number of votes and not necessarily percentage

and consider that those who try to manipulate/alter the results of an election do that for fear they might otherwise loos

edit: ok I have found the figures myself and presidential elections don't seem to be possibly manipulated - there were 200 000 invalid votes of about 17 million ( not much more than 1 per cent then) - the gap in votes was about 1 million - unless there was some different way of lowering Kaczyński votes like getting rid of votes for him and not counting them at all like it must have been the case with those ballot cards from Włocławek (the paper mill) but the necessary scale would make it rather impossible

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Mar 8, 11, 02:16 #130

jonni:

Korwin-Mikke? The guy who stabbed himself then blamed it on a mystery Chinese assassin!

well ridiculing people works only so far - as I have stated the electoral fraud when it comes to UPR is even well documented in one instance (you can find it in the link I previously posted) and it happened as late as 2009 Europarliament election - the reports of previous such instances were common enough to suggest some systematic behaviour on part of many electoral committes

I don't know much about Korwin-Mikke stabbing incident - but what I gather from the covering on the internet he haven't stabbed himself but was attacked by somebody he later wouldn't name (or even mention) instead claiming it was an accidental stabbing - here's my source http://www.asme.pl/serwis/arch/6-2001.html it carries citations from various newspapers of the time

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Edited by: jonni Mar 8, 11, 02:30 #131

gumishu:

I don't know much about Korwin-Mikke stabbing incident - but what I gather from the covering on the internet he haven't stabbed himself but was attacked by somebody he later wouldn't name

I remember it well, sirens, police and all - I was about a coiple of hundred metres away at the time. I wasn't an eye-witness, but others were.

Not that long after the election campaign when every other lamp post was covered in stickers about firing 'scaredy cats' from the army and bringing back hanging.

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Edited by: hague1cmaeron Mar 8, 11, 03:25 #132

gumishu:

Gazeta Wyborcza is unashamedly against PiS and everything they stand for. Is that really a problem, given the latest revelations about Marta Kaczynska's husband?

Its just go to show that the late president or at least the people around him were crooks.

gumishu:

because I meant a different election in the 90's -as I have said I don't recall which election this was - it may have been a couple years before internet was widely popular - I have read about it in a paper edition of a political paper

You expect people to take notice of the website you provided? Seems like a link to an ammetaur conspiracy theorist.

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Mar 8, 11, 10:59 #133

hague1cmaeron:

Its just go to show that the late president or at least the people around him were crooks.

Indeed - anyone who believes that the Kaczynski's were some sort of moral guardians are sadly deluded.

I mean - when you look at them -

Father who almost certainly did some sort of deal with the communists
Marta Kaczynska, who had children with someone other than her husband and is now on her second husband from a Communist family
Jaroslaw's somewhat dubious life as a single man with a cat
Lech's attempts to force a pilot into doing something potentially suicidal (among all the other things)
Political witchhunts against enemies, both real and imagined

Maria Kaczynska on the other hand seems to have been a pretty decent person.

In all fairness - no doubt the late President was manipulated by his daughter into pardoning the crook.

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Edited by: gumishu Mar 8, 11, 14:08 #134

hague1cmaeron:

ts just go to show that the late president or at least the people around him were crooks.

it is always wise to add 'some' before these 'people' unless you want to slight the whole political movement (I don't claim all the PO are fraudulent and cynical types - I only claim majority of them are ;)

delphiandomine:

Political witchhunts against enemies, both real and imagined

what you perceive enemies of Kaczyński I mostly call enemies of the Polish nation - you see how diverse view points can be

(I wonder for example what you called the former WSI 'military intelligence' (yes it deserves the so called description in my view)

and how about the long-term gas contract the governmant (mainly in the person of Waldemar Pawlak) has struck with the Russians - especially the shyness of the government to speak openly about it - are they perhaps waiting for the last days of the current Sejm to silently it pass it through the parliament (they have enough voting power to do it - and it can have much less of an impact on the election results being 'ratified' that late)

oh and I don't claim Kaczyńskis were spotless and to a certain degree they were cynical too - it is difficult not be at least a bit cynical (call it populist) and get elected - and they have made grave mistakes being too cynical - in my opinnion it was possible to form a more stable bloc with Samoobrona making some concessions to their positions-thirsty ranks instead of trying to take it over from Andrzej Lepper as Jarosław Kaczyński envisioned, planned and pushed into materialization - I have to explain that Samoobrona in my view was much less harmful to Poland's interests than PO is (I don't have equally mild oppinion on LPR though being an entity of personal ambition of one man (or just few people) when the whole environment shared so much with PiS save for a couple of prejudices LPR members harboured - but the political practice of 2005-2007 often made these people lose their prejudices - see for example Krzysztof Bosak's case)

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