Is Prawo i Sprawiedliwość a bunch of nutters?

AdamKadmon	Apr 22, 10, 23:22 #1
The Conservatives are now allied with eastern European parties. Nick Clegg, leader of the Liberal Democrats, described the Conservatives’ allies, eastern European parties as: a bunch of nutters, anti-Semites, people who deny climate change exists, homophobes. I'm not sure what Party did he have in mind when saying this. Prawo i Sprawiedliwość, maybe?

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Apr 22, 10, 23:26 #2

AdamKadmon:

a bunch of nutters, anti-Semites, people who deny climate change exists, homophobes.

We are all nutters + for that

anti-semites? Hmm well... Hmm I am tired of discussing that part :)

people who deny climate change exists, it does exist yes but in the brain of some politicians who THINKS they can do something about it. Their wrong ;p
It's too late we are DOOMED!

homophobes
Oh right just because one don't want traditions to be ruined and it's ok to change the attitude about marriage... right...
When ppl will stop being so negative about RCC then I will take them seriously

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Apr 22, 10, 23:30 #3
AdamKadmon: Prawo i Sprawiedliwość Well, the majority of the parties in Poland are socially conservative, so they could be talking about any of them really... Anyway, they were in a couple of different groups within the Europeans parliament. Not sure about the first two, the third one is a good thing, and the last one covers rpetty much every politician in Poland.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Apr 22, 10, 23:54 #4
PiS are just socially conservative socialists. PO are a bit more free market, but still socially conservative. Don't know if you can say they're nutters though.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Apr 23, 10, 01:10 #5
AdamKadmon: a bunch of nutters, anti-Semites, people who deny climate change exists, homophobes. Very close. Do you remember the PiS minister trying to ban the tellytubbies?

aphrodisiacThreads: 22 Posts: 3,998 Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀	Apr 23, 10, 01:33 #6
jonni: Do you remember the PiS minister trying to ban the tellytubbies? who can forget?:)

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Apr 23, 10, 01:51 #7
jonni: Do you remember the PiS minister trying to ban the tellytubbies? If I only got his name! I would praise him! I HATE THAT... series/show what ever

dtaylor5632Threads: 49 Posts: 4,459 Joined: May 2, 09 ♂	Apr 23, 10, 02:27 #8
Mr Grunwald: If I only got his name! I would praise him! I HATE THAT... series/show what ever It was a female minister. Joanna something.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂	Apr 23, 10, 02:31 #9
dtaylor5632: It was a female minister. Joanna something. Her name* ^^ Thanks!

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Edited by: 1jola May 8, 10, 20:23 #10
aphrodisiac: jonni: Do you remember the PiS minister trying to ban the tellytubbies? who can forget?:) Another misinformed foreigner, I mean two of them.

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May 8, 10, 20:43 #11

Far from anti-Semitic, PiS is pro-Semitic, Judeophilic, etc. Lech Kaczynński as mayor of Warsaw introduced the Menora for Hannukah in front of the Palace of Culture, supported the building of the Museum of Polish Jews and could be called an honorary Jew with close ties to Poland's chief rabbi Michael Schudrich.
Kacyznski fulfilled the wishes of most Warsovians, esp. those living along the parade route, when he banned noisy parades of lewdly gyrating homos on mega-amplified platforms. Most Polish parents do not want their small kids to watch such goings-on.

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May 8, 10, 20:54 #12

It's chick to blame everything on Lech Kaczynski or PiS by the Polish left. Our foreign guests, having little orientation in our internal affairs, and not being able to read Polish or speak to older people, just ape what is cool to say. Many of my younger Polish friends hate PiS and the late President, but when challanged, they just can't verbalize anything coherent, and revert to saying they hate them.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	May 8, 10, 21:20 #13
1jola: Many of my younger Polish friends hate PiS and the late President, but when challanged, they just can't verbalize anything coherent, and revert to saying they hate them. Politically, they're all a bunch of socialists. Might as well vote for the nationalist socialists, instead of the international socialists...

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Edited by: 1jola May 8, 10, 21:30 #14
You want to say PiS are Marxists? :) Good one, Convex. Read this thread http://www.polishforums.com/news-politics-4/michal-kaminski-referred-n ot-name-uk-leaders-debate-43540/

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Edited by: delphiandomine May 8, 10, 21:40 #15

1jola:

Many of my younger Polish friends hate PiS and the late President, but when challanged, they just can't verbalize anything coherent, and revert to saying they hate them.

Where do you want to start? PiS politically are very similar to Franco's Falange - authoritarian, God-fearing, anti-communist, anti-free market, nationalist - in fact, probably the only thing that PiS doesn't do is subscribe to the Paramilitary aspect of Falange. Just ask how many of them think Pilsudski had the right idea!

But it's worth bearing in mind that unlike PO and the SLD, PiS are a loose coalition of individuals - and it wouldn't surprise me to see them implode after this election if Jaroslaw doesn't get into the 2nd round (though he should!).

My feeling is that Jaroslaw will end up retiring quietly (or be ousted) after this election, PiS will undergo a massive amount of soul searching and should eventually settle into being the Catholic-Socialist party that they really are, without all the hysteria and nonsense that surrounds them at the minute.

If they drop the homophobia and the other undesirable things that make them so ridiculed, there's no reason why they can't become a respectable party - no matter what people say, a significant number of Poles do want a Catholic-Socialist party that caters to people from cradle to grave while being aligned with the Church teachings.

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Edited by: 1jola May 8, 10, 22:22 #16

What burns PO and SLD is this since many of their members are the beneficiaries of the previous system so it's best to demonize PiS agressively:

Decommunization
PiS is a strong supporter of lustration (lustracja), a verification system created ostensively to combat the influence of the Communist era security apparatus in Polish society. While current lustration laws require the verification of those who serve in public offices, PiS wants to expand the process to include university professors, lawyers, journalists, managers of large companies, and others performing "public functions". Those found to have collaborated with the security service, according to the party, should be forbidden to practice in their professions.

PiS also supports revealing the names of all secret agents from the time of the communist regime.

I don't have time to explain to you where the wealth of the nation went after 1989 and who is he current beneficiary. The similar thing happened in Russia.

I noticed to you they are fascists. That is so worn out.

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Edited by: delphiandomine May 9, 10, 01:34 #17

1jola:

What burns PO and SLD is this since many of their members are the beneficiaries of the previous system so it's best to demonize PiS agressively:

Or perhaps it's time to move on and stop being so hung up about the past? Lustration wouldn't achieve anything now - it would have worked in the early 1990's, but don't forget, many PiS members signed the Round Table agreement too! If they were so principled - why did many of them take part in the negotiations? Opportunist too, perhaps?

I'd actually say that if you're going to throw terms like "traitor" round - then every single person who took part in the Round Table was a traitor.

1jola:

I noticed to you they are fascists. That is so worn out.

Fascists? Hardly, PiS doesn't subscribe to the paramilitary model favoured by Fascists. They might have quite a few things in common with Franco, but the crucial difference is the lack of desire for any sort of paramilitary force. As I said - PiS are fundamentally Christian-Socialist in their nature. The aggressive hounding out of enemies, the desire to control (while allowing the facade of opposition to exist), the belief that the Church is always right, the pro Family policies - all these are remarkably Christian-Socialist in their nature.

Calling PiS "fascists" is simply lazy and inaccurate.

Anyway, Lustration would never work in Poland - too many people have had too much access to the files, along with too many petty grudges to be settled. It may have worked in the early 1990's, but now, it's simply too late. When the IPN regards Stasi documents as being credible (despite it being public knowledge that the Stasi simply falsified things if they didn't get the answer they wanted) - there's no hope for any sort of transparent, honest process.

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May 9, 10, 03:03 #18

delphiandomine:

delphiandomine

I'm happy that someone who isn't polish is interested in this stuff, and actually understands how things worked instead of believing in some supposedly somewhere heard gossips or delusions.

Another thing that has already partially occured was so called wild lustration "dzika lustracja" when Mr Macierewicz, PiS pawn in IPN released the first iteration of the list of different people who worked undercover for Poland, that beside Polish agents included foreign contacts, this way he put lifes of some in peril and put Polish name in shame, who would like to spy for a country that is bringing to the public eye your data afterwards..

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May 9, 10, 15:25 #19

delphiandomine:

Fascists? Hardly, PiS doesn't subscribe to the paramilitary model favoured by Fascists. They might have quite a few things in common with Franco, but the crucial difference is the lack of desire for any sort of paramilitary force. As I said - PiS are fundamentally Christian-Socialist in their nature. The aggressive hounding out of enemies, the desire to control (while allowing the facade of opposition to exist), the belief that the Church is always right, the pro Family policies - all these are remarkably Christian-Socialist in their nature.

Calling PiS "fascists" is simply lazy and inaccurate.

Anyway, Lustration would never work in Poland - too many people have had too much access to the files, along with too many petty grudges to be settled. It may have worked in the early 1990's, but now, it's simply too late. When the IPN regards Stasi documents as being credible (despite it being public knowledge that the Stasi simply falsified things if they didn't get the answer they wanted) - there's no hope for any sort of transparent, honest process.

I think you got it spot on.

TrevekThreads: 33 Posts: 2,155 Joined: May 21, 08 ♂	May 9, 10, 17:29 #20
I suppose the PiS/LPR image is pretty strong. anti-semitic and homophobic just seems to sum up Gietrych (who also had a thing for school uniforms and corporal punishment, if I recall). I agree, using the word "fascist" is pretty lazy. Socialist Workers tend to use it for anyone who isn't a card-carrying member.

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May 9, 10, 17:49 #21

frd:

I'm happy that someone who isn't polish is interested in this stuff, and actually understands how things worked instead of believing in some supposedly somewhere heard gossips or delusions.

The only way to look at it is for what they actually said and did. For all that Jaroslaw Kaczynski pretends to be this strong man standing up for Poland - the reality is that he was involved with the Round Table discussions and that he didn't withdraw Poland from the EU when he was Prime Minister (with the majority to do so!). Quite why people seem to believe his rhetoric is beyond me - his actions betray him as a supporter of the EU and of someone who was willing to compromise with the Communists.

But really - PiS is the party of those who are sentimental about the old days in Poland. It's no coincidence that the American Polonia is supporting Jaroslaw Kaczynski - he appeals to their romantic vision of how Poland should be.

Trevek:

I agree, using the word "fascist" is pretty lazy. Socialist Workers tend to use it for anyone who isn't a card-carrying member.

Yeah, I don't like it at all - especially when there's no evidence of PiS members being into paramilitary nonsense. The fact that PiS is supported by Solidarity should be more than enough evidence for people to see that they are really just a nationalist-socialist party. It's hard to actually find parallels outside of Franco's regime - perhaps the DUP in Northern Ireland could be a good example, especially with the huge influence that the Protestant churches there have on the DUP as a party.

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Edited by: Dougpol2 May 9, 10, 18:32 #22

Nutters? Dangerous nutters.

Like others. I agree with Nick - I mean delphiandomine :)

A lot of us foreigners who were around in 1989 smirked a little at what the communist bods were allowed to walk away with, and most of us blamed the pious Mazowiecki for that.
Then Olszewski had a bash as premier at sorting the crims out. Without any backing. With the Kaczynskis, as then, any witch hunt was just an excuse to avoid doing anything about Poland's many problems.

Problems of which I would put inner city regeneration at the top of the list. PIS's cure for the woes of crumbling city infrastructure was to sell off property to those in the know - generally those in public service.... and to block any overseas investment as foreign speculation.

PIS' attitude to minorities who are different has already been deemed by Strasbourg to be discriminatory. Turning the water cannon on a gay march helps to make the country a laughing stock abroad - this is the government who boasted that they hated the communists. But they were nutters, earning the same ridicule as the Party, when they publicly boasted in one of Jerzy Urban's missives in 1988 that the People's Republic did not have any incidents of AIDS - as there was no homosexuality in Poland. Lol.

landoraThreads: 1 Posts: 191 Joined: Oct 14, 09 ♀	May 9, 10, 19:00 #23
They most definitely are a bunch of nutters. (for 1jola - I'm Polish)

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Edited by: 1jola May 9, 10, 21:14 #24

I will come back to this thread soon to address the issues and especially to smirkikg Dougpol's comedy of a post, but I see I have someone chiming in trying to confirm my earlier point. I wrote:

1jola:

Many of my younger Polish friends hate PiS and the late President, but when challanged, they just can't verbalize anything coherent, and revert to saying they hate them.

Given a chance to shine and make me feel better that my money hasn't been wasted on her college education, she made a huge effort and declared with certainty:

landora:

They most definitely are a bunch of nutters.

(for 1jola - I'm Polish)

Thank you for playing along. Now, run before I make you cry.

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May 10, 10, 01:12 #25

1jola:

Thank you for playing along. Now, run before I make you cry.

Dear Jola, thank you for funding my college education - indeed, I am very grateful for your tax money!
To explain why I didn't bother saying anything more - I know a few PiS voters (all of them poorly educated people, often unemployed or on disability benefits) and there is absolutely no point in discussing politics with them - they only see THE TRUTH revealed to them by Jarosław Kaczyński or ojciec Rydzyk and therefore do not need any other reasons to vote PiS. They just blindly believe what they are told and people that dare think differently are straight away "idiots", "primitives" or even "traitors" or "antichrists".

Therefore, I do not see the point in discussing my political views with any PiS voter, as I see it as complete waste of my time which I can spend making money so that they can have their free health care and false disability benefits.

So do not worry, dear Jola - the money you spent on my education (you must be pretty old, because I am not very young at all) I'm now giving back to you in your "renta" or "zasiłek dla bezrobotnych", whichever you take...

Best regards,
Landora

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May 10, 10, 01:34 #26

1jola:

especially to smirk at Dougpol's comedy of a post

Did I write anything that isin't true Jola? :) Weren't PIS the laughing stock of Europe? Only David Cameron was stupid enough to be their mate, and weren't they suspiciously anti -gay, what with your ex prime minister being unmarried and all. It takes one to know one and all that.
Nobody would joke about Kaczynki's orientation, if he hadn't brought up the idea of harassing them in the first place. Like abortion,nobody else's business but the person involved. No sane person would give a toss.
As to PIS' economic policies, or rather lack of them, care to enlighten me? Other than organising public hand outs dressed up as sell-offs, public infrastructure programmes stood still with them at the helm. And don't even get me started on Poland's foreign policy with them, brown-nosing Georgie Boy and the other "good folks." They were indeed the laughing stock, though nobody was laughing except the in-laws,and aged village biddies.
In the cities nobody would admit to have voted for the twins, so what is there to say but RIP Lech and adios Jarek, and thanks for precisiely nothing.

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May 10, 10, 05:16 #27

Dougpol2:

Did I write anything that isin't true Jola? :)

Nope, all that you wrote is true, of course you interpret it in your own merry way.

Dougpol2:

Weren't PIS the laughing stock of Europe?

Yes but it didnt stop them from protecting Polands national interests or at least not damaging them like PO and SLD did.

Dougpol2:

Nobody would joke about Kaczynki's orientation, if he hadn't brought up the idea of harassing them in the first place. Like abortion,nobody else's business but the person involved. No sane person would give a toss.

No sane person in Western countries with their complete lack of morality, make no mistake i do not equal abortion to being immoral, i'm saying that UK, Germany, France and virtually every country west of Poland is a focked up place where morality and common sense have long been replaced by pursuit of excesses.

That in Poland abortion is discussed is both a problem that arises from our solid religious background and proof that Poland is far more mature than say UK where such serious issues are approached lightly.

Your opinion, case in point shows that western people are garbage as far as ethics are concerned, wealfare apparently does not equal moral maturity.

Dougpol2:

In the cities nobody would admit to have voted for the twins, so what is there to say but RIP Lech and adios Jarek, and thanks for precisiely nothing.

A question, how is PO superior to PiS? What did they achieve that PiS did not? I'm not saying PiS was competent, it was not and still is not but it is far less damaging than any other party, a lesser evil so to speak.

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May 10, 10, 08:01 #28

landora:

To explain why I didn't bother saying anything more - I know a few PiS voters (all of them poorly educated people, often unemployed or on disability benefits) and there is absolutely no point in discussing politics with them

I understand you well now. You have nothing to say to us here about why you think PiS are "nutters," whatever that means, because you know a few PiS voters and there is no point in talking to them. Perhaps to you that makes sense.

landora:

Therefore, I do not see the point in discussing my political views with any PiS voter

Therefore implies you are attempting to reach some sort of logical conclusion. Your argument is:

I know a few uneducated PiS voters and they are stupid; therefore, all PiS voters are stupid.

You go further by assuming I am one of those people because I might be a) old, b) on disability, c)unemployment benefits. Based on your "knowledge", all PiS voters are that, but you know nothing about me and have never met an intelligent PiS voter.

Unless you want embarass yourself further, you will take my previous advise to you.

Remember, when you're in the hole, stop digging.

BTW, that was the longest post you've made on this board so far. Buh, Bye.

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May 10, 10, 11:27 #29

Sokrates:

i'm saying that UK, Germany, France and virtually every country west of Poland is a focked up place where morality and common sense have long been replaced by pursuit of excesses.

Which Poland are you living in? The one that I live in has people collecting cigarette butts at the airport, construction companies using sub par materials, people stealing parts off of cars, and mind numbing "common sense based" bureaucracy.

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	May 10, 10, 11:41 #30
Sokrates: far more mature than say UK where such serious issues are approached lightly Could it also be that "the West" has had these discussions "a century ago" and that the discussions have resulted in rules and regulations about the subject? Just a thought ... .

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