Priests are paid by the Gov't in Poland.

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Nov 18, 11, 19:30 #1

My wife was explaining the news today to me (Gov't wants to start taxing priests) and I was amazed to find out that they actually are paid by gov't. I don't have a problem with tax deductions for religious orders, but to be paying their salary? What's up with that? I was amazed that the controversy seems to be about paying taxes, not the fact that they are paid by gov't. Did I misunderstand something?

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,398 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Nov 18, 11, 22:28 #2
Don`t be silly and ask your wife for more explanation. Priests who work in schools as Catholic religion teachers are paid by the state.

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Nov 19, 11, 12:10 #3

You can't place a heavy value on sth and then shun the very core of its symbolism. Priests, rightly or wrongly, were chosen to act as mediators between Man and God. The great majority of Poles are adherents to the RCC dogma and thus priests are automatically part of the national fabric. See it as being like a business. You have to invest in it in order to sustain it. The priests perform all manner of services as part of their religious duties. Being baptised is a major thing for devout Catholics so why bring money into the equation? Society has placed a high value on what they do so they should pay for that IMHO.

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,856 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 12:12 #4
lateStarter: Priests are payed by Gov't in Poland? do you have f.e. obligatory taxes for church in poland in your income tax? like in germany?

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 12:13 #5
The German system is great. Simple, logical, sensible.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 12:19 #6
sascha: do you have f.e. obligatory taxes for church in poland in your income tax? like in germany? Nope, Seanus: so why bring money into the equation? Ask bankers ! lateStarter: I don't have a problem with tax deductions for religious orders, What deductions ? Priests even those who doesn't work at school pay taxes - if somebody say something different - its lie.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 12:21 #7
I was referrring to their salary payment. They have strong backing by bankers btw. Why? Due to the ability of a priest to hold a group together and steer them. They are an invaluable asset to the banking industry as priests can control people.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Edited by: Teffle Nov 19, 11, 12:23 #8
So priests are paid by the state then? definitely? Is anyone disputing this?

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Edited by: Ironside Nov 19, 11, 12:27 #9

Seanus:

was referrring to their salary payment. They have strong backing by bankers btw. Why? Due to the ability of a priest to hold a group together and steer them. They are an invaluable asset to the banking industry as priests can control people.

John with all due respect you are talking rubbish!

Teffle:

So priests are paid by the state then? definitely? Is anyone disputing this?

Yep I do ! you are suggesting that their are paid by gov because their are priests - thats not true!

Seanus:

I was referrring to their salary payment.

I think that a good exercise for you would be try to live for a while without salary.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 12:32 #10
I-S, check as many sources as you want. Priests are on the payroll of prominent bankers. Priests exert control and this is a much sought after commodity by the banking elite. You can't really deny this. Without a salary? What brought that on, I-S?

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 12:34 #11
Seanus: I-S, check as many sources as you want. Priests are on the payroll of prominent banker Are they ? thats a news for me,,,could you elaborate ?

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 12:37 #12
Ironside: you are suggesting that their are paid by gov because their are priests I'm not suggesting anything - I'm asking.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 12:42 #13
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,700513,00.html is but one of many links. Religion is a tool and banks buy into it. It is a lever for them to manipulate. Banks are most clearly supplicants.

noreenbThreads: 4 Posts: 1,082 Joined: Apr 22, 09 ♀	Nov 19, 11, 13:44 #14
Yes, as far as I am concerned they are. On the other hand- church gives donations for conservating monuments.

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Edited by: Ironside Nov 19, 11, 14:33 #15

Seanus:

is but one of many links. Religion is a tool and banks buy into it. It is a lever for them to manipulate. Banks are most clearly supplicants.

Can you kindly take a notice of the thread topic, there is nothing about RCC in Germany.
Also, the way they are finance the RCC in Germany differ from those of the RCC in Poland.
Notice that circumstances in Germany and Poland are different.

To answer the OP question - no they are not and they pay taxes too.

Teffle:

I'm not suggesting anything - I'm asking.

Where they paid by the gov in Ireland?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 14:39 #16
The same rings true in Poland, I-S. I've seen some truly majestic churches that receive help from bankers. Why are you denying this so vehemently?

saschaThreads: 13 Posts: 3,856 Joined: Jun 10, 10 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 15:43 #17
iron, who is paying them then? germans i large numbers left the church because of the latest scandals and not willing to finance them by their tax money...

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 21:32 #18
sascha: iron, who is paying them then? mainly peeps, they pay for weddings, funerals and such, there is also monies collected during mass but thats suppose to be for maintenances of church and such. If a priest is working at school he is getting pay like other teachers and he have to pass all required curses for teachers - and yes then he is paid by gov like other teachers. :)

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Edited by: pawian Nov 19, 11, 22:57 #19

lateStarter:

My wife was explaining the news today to me (Gov't wants to start taxing priests) and I was amazed to find out that they actually are paid by gov't. I don't have a problem with tax deductions for religious orders, but to be paying their salary?

I am sorry, your post was a bit misleading that is why I mentioned priest teachers` salaries only.

But yes, the retired priests get their pensions from the state. Tusk declared the termination of this deal.

PS. Priests retire at 75 in Poland.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 22:59 #20
What was Tusk's logic for doing so, pawian?

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,398 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 23:02 #21
He suggested that the property the Church was robbed of by communists has been given back and the clergy have more means at their disposal to secure a retirement.

TeffleThreads: 28 Posts: 2,105 Joined: Aug 26, 10 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 23:11 #22
Ironside: Where they paid by the gov in Ireland? No.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 23:11 #23
Tusk hasn't really touched the communist rabble rousers of the past so who is feeding him with such info? I guess the fears of priests are allayed somewhat by knowing that they can retire at 75. More means at their disposal? Good English, pawian, but what did you have in mind, exactly? Or what did Tusk have in mind?

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Nov 19, 11, 23:12 #24

Teffle:

So priests are paid by the state then?

As nobody's bothered to answer the simple question so far, I'll try to. The priests who teach religion at schools and those who work as chaplains with the army, at hospitals etc. get regular salaries from the state. Those who stay at parishes, are supported by the faithful - they collect money during mass, for funerals, weddings etc. and get a salary out of this money, it's controlled by the curia.
Tusk's announcement was not about taxing the salaries but about pension and health service contributions (ZUS), which to date have been covered by the Church Fund (Fundacja Kościelna), established in 1950 as compensation for the lands and property taken from the Church by the state. Since 1990, the Church has been recovering the lost property or its equivalents and the Fund during this time has been financed solely by the state budget. So Tusk now aims to liquidate the Fund, and the priests would have to pay the ZUS contributions by themselves, or the curias would have to cover it.

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 988 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Nov 19, 11, 23:24 #25
The CC is not opposing the idea. They say they're ready to work out new solutions. http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114884,10675073,Emerytalne_up rzywilejowanie_ksiezy__Rzecznik_episkopatu_.html

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Nov 19, 11, 23:40 #26

strzyga:

As nobody's bothered to answer the simple question so far, I'll try to. The priests who teach religion at schools and those who work as chaplains with the army, at hospitals etc. get regular salaries from the state. Those who stay at parishes, are supported by the faithful - they collect money during mass, for funerals, weddings etc. and get a salary out of this money, it's controlled by the curia.
Tusk's announcement was not about taxing the salaries but about pension and health service contributions (ZUS), which to date have been covered by the Church Fund (Fundacja Kościelna), established in 1950 as compensation for the lands and property taken from the Church by the state. Since 1990, the Church has been recovering the lost property or its equivalents and the Fund during this time has been financed solely by the state budget. So Tusk now aims to liquidate the Fund, and the priests would have to pay the ZUS contributions by themselves, or the curias would have to cover it.

Exactly. Thanks for taking the effort.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Nov 19, 11, 23:52 #27
Tusk seems to have made a good decision here. Let them pay ZUS and see how it feels.

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Nov 20, 11, 00:14 #28

pawian:

Exactly. Thanks for taking the effort.

I wanted to add this:

Pawian, I am not really that much interested in this subject, nor I am educated enough to help much here or to get too much involved either in this discussion, or in the search. However, even I can easily see that you are jut spinning fairy tales about self-supporting Catholic Church and about lack of any form of donations from the State. This is unfair: If people ask you serious questions, you should give them serious answers - or at least give them some good pointers.

Tell them a little bit about Concordat, and about "Fundusz Kościelny" (Church Fund) - as a informal way of annual compensation for church property taken over by the State, tell him about "Kościelna Komisja Majątkowa" (Church Property Commission) that supposed to finally sort out and close this issue forever and to dissolve the Church Fund. Tell them about the criminal affairs committed by some of the members of the commission and about trials taking places now. Tell them how State was blindly robbed as the result of this. Tell them that the Church Fund still exist for no good reason, as some form of State donation to Church.

Tell them about all other various donations:
- social insurance
- social-education donations
- financing of repairs and conservation of some church properties
- financing of Church universities
- financing of religion lessons at schools
- special donations to parishes at North-West Poland
- financing military, prison and hospital chaplains
- non-taxable donations from state run business organizations, such as KGHM Polska Miedź S.A.

Now tell them something about income of church:
- collection ("TACA")
- extraordinary collections
- income from real estate
- income from various businesses
- income from rentals
- payments for graves in parish cemeteries
- sale of Christmas wafers
- donations from citizens and organizations (another black hole)
- payments for the First Communion

And about personal income:
- "IURA STOLAE": wedding, baptism, funeral
- "kolęda" - officially removed, but practically still in force.
- mess intentions
- praying for the dead on November 1 and 2
- parish farms

Taxes and Duties
- income and real estate taxes for church institutions are so low, as practically non-existent. The only taxes in force are "podatek rolny" (farm tax) - related to monastery farms and seminary farms.
- personal taxes are in the form of lump sum based on number of parishioners (yes, including those heretics). The PIT option is there but no churchman was stupid enough to take it yet.
- farm tax must be paid if a priest owns a farm.

Duties
Donations related to cult, charity and social-education are duty free.
Printing shop related materials (machines, paper) are duty free.

NOW, tell them them about new proposal of giving 1% of personal income to a church.

Do not ask me about details, I just summarized a big article from Racjonalista: http://www.racjonalista.pl/kk.php/s,2728 . I judge that website reasonably balanced.

strzygaThreads: 4 Posts: 988 Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀	Nov 20, 11, 00:15 #29
pawian: Thanks for taking the effort. yeah, I haven't noticed you've explained it before. Seanus: Tusk seems to have made a good decision here. A fair one, methinks. Definitely a step in the right direction.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Nov 20, 11, 00:31 #30
boletus: Do not ask me about details, I just summarized a big article from Racjonalista: http://www.racjonalista.pl/kk.php/s,2728 . I judge that website reasonably balanced. Well, not surprising, hateful dumb **** !

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