Row over status of Poles in Germany sours relations

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Edited by: David_18 May 11, 11, 13:30 #1

"The treaty on good neighborly relations and friendly cooperation" from June 17, 1991, guarantees equal rights to Germans and Poles living in Poland and Germany, including the right to learn their mother tongue and cultivate their respective traditions. Both countries agreed to provide financing for those efforts.

"But while the Polish government honors its duties and does exceptionally well in providing those services, in Germany, efforts to accommodate citizens of Polish descent remain inadequate," said the head of the German Polonia Congress, Wieslaw Lewicki. The word 'Polonia' is used to describe Poles living abroad.

In particular, Lewicki laments the lack of access in many German states to Polish-language courses for children of Polish descent.

"The Germans are not taking us seriously. It's an insult," Lewicki complained.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15066030,00.html

Ignorant Germans.

It's really sad that the Germans can't honor sucha simple treaty...

KoalaThreads: 1 Posts: 433 Joined: May 4, 11 ♂	May 11, 11, 13:38 #2
There are 2M+ Poles in Germany, so there's a lot of money involved. I can see German being hesitant about giving Poles "minority" status. Although, if Poles work hard over there and pay taxes, they should have some privileges. I don't see a conclusion to this matter anytime soon.

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Edited by: convex May 11, 11, 14:07 #3

David_18:

But while the Polish government honors its duties and does exceptionally well in providing those services

Sorry, gut laugh there.

In particular, Lewicki laments the lack of access in many German states to Polish-language courses for children of Polish descent.

Where is that in the agreement? It makes mention of not blocking access to learn their mother tongue...not a requirement to provide it. Lewicki comes across as a hardcore statist...

BTW, Pieper made those comments while getting the "Polonicus Prize"...

http://potsdamer-konferenz.de/versoehnung/deutsch_polnischer_nachbarsc haftsvertrag.php

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	May 11, 11, 14:14 #4
convex: Sorry, gut laugh there. Why ?

PalivecThreads: - Posts: 333 Joined: Apr 22, 11 ♂	May 11, 11, 14:15 #5
Economic immigrants aren't the same as ethnic minorities. I don't think these Poles can prove a long-term presence as a group on a specific territory in Germany, unlike the Sorbs or Danes.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq May 11, 11, 14:35 #6

1. Polish minority rights were abolished in 1940 by the nazis. The current German government
upkeeps and continues the infamous Adolf Hitler's policy of denying Poles their minority rights.

2. Poles in Germany are not only economic immigrants, as some lying nazi bastards would have us believe.

3. The ancestors of many Polish minority members in Germany were called "preussische Polen" (the name
comes from the times of the first partition of Poland in 1772). After internal migrations in Germany some
of them were called "Rurhpolen".

4. In eastern Germany some of the place names indicate clearly their Polish origins. The populations
of Casekow, Tatow, Tarnow, Mirow, for example, used to be Polish.

5. The Weimar Republic gave Poles minority rights because they came from territories which belonged,
in different times, to both Poland and Germany.

6. The Polish minority had their representatives in local Landtags and in Reichstag.

7. In the III Reich, shortly before abolishing all Polish minority rights, the number of Polish minority
members were about 1.5 million.

... to be continued ...

*and there's a lot more to be said about the unjustice being done to Poles in Germany*

I have to go now. In case I don't have time today to continue with this thread, I would like to take
this opportunity to kindly request our German friends and neighbours to finally end with their genocidal,
hitlerite past, and restore all the rights of Polish minority abolished by the nazi animals.
There is no point in XXI century, in our common Europe, to insist on upkeeping the hitlerite ban.

Thank you for your attention.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	May 11, 11, 14:46 #7
Ironside: Why ? Very simply, Poland discriminates against foreigners who live in Poland and does so in ways which are contrary to EU law.

MalopolaninThreads: 8 Posts: 198 Joined: Sep 5, 10 ♂	May 11, 11, 14:46 #8
Germans are still Nazis against the Poles - Polish minority in Germany. Alalalalalalala!

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 11, 11, 15:07 #9

Koala:

I can see German being hesitant about giving Poles "minority" status.

Well, they are immigrants, not a native minority...

What about Poles walking over and offering polish language classes?

About "Ruhrpolen":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhrpolen

...
Ruhrpolen (“Ruhr Poles”) is a German umbrella term for Poles(including Silesians, Masurians[1] [2] [3], Kashubians)[4], who migrated to the rapidly-industrializing areas of the Ruhr Valley, mainly from former eastern territories of Germany (the Prussian provinces of Posen, (Upper) Silesia, and East and West Prussia.) This migration wave, known as the Ostflucht, began in the late 19th century, while the Ruhrpolen arrived around the 1870s.

"Ostflucht"- fleeing the East.
Masses of Poles immigrated into "mean, opressing" Prussia for economical reasons...still not a native minority.

Torq:

*and there's a lot more to be said about the unjustice being done to Poles in Germany*

Oh crap!
Why don't they just leave if they don't like it....

What a horrible country Germany is...as it was back then with Prussia, right? Well...the movements of Poles speak a different language!

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	May 11, 11, 15:35 #10
if the Poles want a school so much they should get together and create one. live in Poland. speak Polish live in Germany. speak Polish. WTF

MEMBER ♂

May 11, 11, 15:41 #11

Bratwurst Boy:

Well, they are immigrants, not a native minority...

It started mostly in 1772, and it was not only immigration, but also incorporation
of Polish lands by Prussia that created the minority. Is 1772 not long ago enough to consider
them a minority? Where do you draw the line? 1572? 1372? Are you being serious here, BB?

Bratwurst Boy:

still not a native minority.

Interesting, especially as Sinti and Roma are officially recognized as minorities in Germany.
I would really like to hear how they are "more native" to Germany than Poles.

Bratwurst Boy:

Oh crap! Why don't they just leave if they don't like it...

How many generations have passed since 1772? And you are asking those Poles to leave, because
they want their minority rights restored? That's right, not granted but RESTORED.
They only want what the nazis have taken away from them.

Why insist on upkeeping the hitlerite ban? Why continue the nazi persecution? Doesn't make sense to me.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 11, 11, 15:44 #12

What next....Turks? Turks have the same claim to minority rights as have Poles.

Torq:

And you are asking those Poles to leave, because
they want their minority rights restored? That's right, not granted but RESTORED.

Well....sadly the borders have shifted compared to the times before the war. Then there had been many Poles
inside the Reich...but the Poles after the war made clear where the ethnical borders had to be.

There is nothing to restore...or?

MEMBER ♂

May 11, 11, 15:44 #13

Wroclaw:

if the Poles want a school so much they should get together and create one.

live in Poland. speak Polish

live in Germany. speak Polish.

WTF

Poor Poland has spend a couple of hundred million euros from her budget to help small (147 thousand)
German minority in Poland (among other things, for the German-language education for the members
of German minority.)
For every euro that Germany spent to aid Polish organisations in their country, Poland paid 1500 euro (!)
to aid the German minority.

live in Germany. speak German

live in Poland. speak German.

WTF

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	May 11, 11, 15:47 #14
Just expell them too and you are rid of them....

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq May 11, 11, 15:47 #15

Bratwurst Boy:

What next....Turks?

Oh, the laughable "Turkish argument" again. The immigrants from Ataturk's country are not from central
Europe and never in history had any minority rights in Germany. Polish minority doesn't want to have any
new rights granted, but only the old ones restored.

We share a lot of common history, lands and culture. Comparing us to Turks, and denying us the right
that are given even to Sinti and Roma... well, it does seem strange to be honest...

Bratwurst Boy:

Just expell them too and you are rid of them....

Too bad you didn't actually answer any of my arguments in post no. 11, but insist on taling
about "expellations" and "leave if they don't like it". As I said - extremely strange attitude...

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 11, 11, 15:50 #16

Torq:

Oh, the laughable "Turkish argument" again. The immigrants from Ataturk's country are not from central
Europe

Since when became the country of origin a reason to claim minority rights?

Torq:

Polish minority doesn't want to have any
new rights granted, but only the old ones restored.

First restore german Silesia and East Prussia please! Pre-War borders!!!
Germany will surely then grant Poles minority rights, promised! :)

Torq:

well, it does seem strange to be honest...

Just to drive the fact home....immigrants have no claim to minority rights, nowhere!

Torq:

As I said - extremely strange attitude...

An annoyed reaction!

Poles and Germans were about to have a party about a good reason, 20 years of friendship treaty, but Poles couldn't help themselves again. Destroying a good event with unreasonable nagging and demands, THANK YOU!!!

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	May 11, 11, 15:51 #17
Weren't the minority communities based in what is now Poland?

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq May 11, 11, 15:54 #18

Bratwurst Boy:

Well....sadly the borders have shifted compared to the times before the war. Then there had been many
Poles inside the Reich..

It is indeed sad that Polish borders have shifted in the East. Not sad at all that they shifted in the West,
as it was a rightful recompensation for the war that you started and lost, but that's not the subject
of this thread.

There are still many Poles in Germany and they are the descendants of the pre-war minority
(not only Ruhrpolen). All those places that I mentioned in eastern Germany that have Polish
names, are still there and the descendants of Polish minority members living there are still
inhabiting Germany.

Bratwurst Boy:

There is nothing to restore

Oh, there is. What nazis have taken away, should be restored. Hitlerism has no future in Europe
anymore and the rights of Polish minority need to be brought back. SAY NO TO NAZISM!

convex:

Weren't the minority communities based in what is now Poland?

Last time I checked the Ruhrgebiet and places in eastern Germany around Berlin weren't in Poland.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	May 11, 11, 15:57 #19
We should expell all Poles out of Germany and be done with it!

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	May 11, 11, 15:59 #20
Torq: Last time I checked the Ruhrgebiet and places in Eastern Germany around Berlin weren't in Poland. How many of those people that you're talking about that have lived in the Ruhrgebiet for the last 150 years consider themselves Polish? Same goes for the communities that are around Berlin. They're Germans with Polish last names...

MEMBER ♂

May 11, 11, 16:02 #21

Bratwurst Boy:

immigrants have no claim to minority rights, nowhere!

It all depends where you draw the line. Are the descendants of Polish citizens of Prussia
from 1772 (about 12 generations ago))still immigrants in Germany to you? :-)

Bratwurst Boy:

immigrants have no claim to minority rights, nowhere!

:-)

OK... explain the Sinti and Roma minority rights in Germany. :-)

Or are they native to your country? :D

Bratwurst Boy:

We should expell all Poles out of Germany and be done with it!

*quoted just for future reference :-)*

Bratwurst Boy:

Poles and Germans were about to have a party about a good reason, 20 years of friendship treaty, but
Poles couldn't help themselves again. Destroying a good event with unreasonable nagging and demands,
THANK YOU!!!

Those nazi ban on our minority rights would seem to be a good thing to abolish for the Friendship Treaty
Anniversary. For some reason Poles don't like the fact that hitlerite persecurions towards them are still
continued. Surprise, surprise.

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May 11, 11, 16:03 #22

Torq:

Oh, there is. What nazis have taken away, should be restored. Hitlerism has no future in Europe
anymore and the rights of Polish minority need to be brought back. SAY NO TO NAZISM!

You mean as to JK who proclaims Silesian regionalists as being Nazi fifth column?
There is simply nothing to restore. You mean you would designate to the Poles who for example live in Dortmund an autonomous region?
The Sorbs, yes this I can understand, that is an entirely different matter.
But all these Polish economic migrants now claiming special status?

In my native Belgium the Poles organise their own schools (Wednesday afternoon and Saturday). They do not moan like you.

By the way which Hitlerism? The Solidarity 2010 one on KM? The smolenskist one? The Zobrist "crash my laptop" one?

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May 11, 11, 16:04 #23

Torq:

All those places that I mentioned in eastern Germany that have Polish names, are still there a

I would not call these names "Polish" by any means, but Slavic ones. They were the names given by the Slavic western tribes who politcally had never assocciated themselves with Poland, but on the contrary used to regularly confront Polish forces advancing against them as well as fighting all this time with Germany.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 11, 11, 16:04 #24

Torq:

OK... explain the Sinti and Roma minority rights in Germany. :-)

I don't think they have minority rights either...the only ones who claimed and got minority rights are the Danish of Schleswig Holstein and the Sorbs in the Lausitz.

Torq:

For some reason Poles don't like the fact that hitlerite persecurions towards them are still
continued. Surprise, surprise.

Well...there is the door ----->

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq May 11, 11, 16:07 #25

convex:

How many of those people that you're talking about that have lived in the Ruhrgebiet for the last 150 years consider themselves Polish? Same goes for the communities that are around Berlin.

Ask them.

The statistical data shows that 62.8% of German citizens of Polish origins declare the knowledge of
Polish language as "very good" (no matter how accurate their declarations are - it means that they
retained their Polish identity).

convex:

They're Germans with Polish last names...

Oh, I get it. So you're saying that Poles are simply paying the price for being hard-working,
law abiding citizens? They assimilated very well, don't create any problems, so they don't
deserve their minority rights? So maybe the nazis were right in 1940?

Very interesting indeed, herr Obersturmbannfuhrer Convex.

Bratwurst Boy:

I don't think they have minority rights

They do.

Bratwurst Boy:

Well...there is the door ----->

:D

sobieski:

By the way which Hitlerism? The Solidarity 2010 one on KM? The smolenskist one? The Zobrist "crash
my laptop" one?

*yaaaaaaaaawn*

Your monothematism is getting tedious.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	May 11, 11, 16:08 #26
Torq: They do. A link please?

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May 11, 11, 16:14 #27

Harry:

Very simply, Poland discriminates against foreigners who live in Poland and does so in ways which are contrary to EU law.

Not Germans or Lithuanians who have schools in their language and all minority rights and additionally Germans have one or two PM in Parliament.
Not to mention that Lithuania doesn't respect rights of Poles living there, as well as Germany, both insist on refusing Poles those right their countrymen enjoy in Poland.

Wroclaw:

WTF

WTF are you talking about? If someone was born in Germany is the matter of curse that he/she will speak language of the country he/she lives in.
Their parents pay tax in Germany is only natural since German in Poland enjoy those right - it should go both ways or no way!

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	May 11, 11, 16:15 #28
Bratwurst Boy: A link please? By all means... Official minority recognition was granted to the Friesians in Schleswig-Holstein and Lower Saxony, and the Sorbs in Saxony and Brandenburg, and, since 1997, to the Roma/Sinti throughout Germany. http://www.minorityrights.org/?lid=1723&tmpl=printpage :-)

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May 11, 11, 16:17 #29

Torq:

Ask them.

You know, that one is pretty interesting. When I first came into my addiction to all things Polish, I was living in Germany. I stopped asking people with Polish last names if they were Polish due to the negative responses. Dunno, maybe they've just been beaten down so badly in the new Reich that they became ashamed of their heritage while running businesses and being elected into public office.

Torq:

Oh, I get it. So you're saying that Poles are simply paying the price for being hard-working,
law abiding citizens? They assimilated very well, don't create any problems, so they don't
deserve their minority rights? So maybe the nazis were right in 1940?

No, I'm saying they consider themselves Germans, not Poles. Again, personal experience.

Torq:

Very interesting indeed, herr Obersturmbannfuhrer Convex.

Neat, just like Erich Kempka! One of those Polish minorities you're talking about...

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May 11, 11, 16:23 #30

convex:

I stopped asking people with Polish last names if they were Polish due to the negative responses. Dunno, maybe they've just been beaten down so badly in the new Reich that they became ashamed of their heritage while running businesses and being elected into public office.

you haven't met real Poles but Germans with Polish surnames - my aunt who is Polish lives in Germany (is married there to a German guy who I call my uncle - they and their son bear a German name) - in the same house lives a family with a Polish surname who have no connection whatsoever to Polishness - hope that explains a couple of facts -

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