Russian Duma Condemns Stalin Over Katyn

alexw68	Nov 26, 10, 15:35 #1
Russian parliament condemns Stalin for Katyn massacre Russia's lower house of parliament has condemned Joseph Stalin for the mass execution of Poles at Katyn during World War II. Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11845315

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 26, 10, 19:10 #2
alexw68: Russian parliament condemns Stalin for Katyn massacre The problem isn't so much the Russians, but rather the Poles that will refuse to accept it. It's another olive banch from Russia - but alas, too many people here have interests in still "opposing" Russia at all costs.

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Edited by: joepilsudski Nov 26, 10, 19:36 #3

Merged thread:
Russian Duma Condemns Stalin Over Katyn/BBC

Russian parliament condemns Stalin for Katyn massacre

26 November 2010 Last updated at 08:57 ET

Russia's lower house of parliament has condemned Joseph Stalin by name for the mass execution of Poles at Katyn during World War II.

The Duma declared that the Soviet dictator and other Soviet officials had ordered the "Katyn crime" in 1940.

The statement, which comes weeks before a Russian presidential visit to Poland, was welcomed in Warsaw.

In a stormy debate, Communist MPs opposed the declaration, some seeking to deny Soviet guilt.

Soviet propaganda sought for decades to portray the massacre as the work of the Nazis, who overran Katyn after invading the USSR in 1941.

The truth was finally acknowledged in 1990, in the dying days of Soviet power, but the issue has continued to cloud relations between Russia and Poland.

The Duma said it hoped for "the beginning of a new stage in relations" with Poland "based on democratic values". Russian President Dmitry Medvedev is set to visit the country early next month.

Grzegorz Schetyna, Speaker of Poland's Sejm, the lower house of the Polish parliament, described the Duma declaration as a "good step and an important sign".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11845315

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Nov 26, 10, 19:38 #4
joepilsudski: Russian parliament condemns Stalin for Katyn massacre Good boys

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Nov 26, 10, 19:48 #5

delphiandomine:

The problem isn't so much the Russians, but rather the Poles that will refuse to accept it. It's another olive banch from Russia - but alas, too many people here have interests in still "opposing" Russia at all costs.

Yeah...Poles love their grudges.
There is this famous gesture by Willy Brand, kneeling down in Warsaw...you can't get more apologizing than that...but did that help the reconciliation??? Nooooooooooooooo

:(

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Nov 26, 10, 19:52 #6
Bratwurst Boy: There is this famous gesture by Willy Brand, kneeling down in Warsaw.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Nov 26, 10, 19:54 #7
Yes...and? What did it got him??? You apologize one time...you apologize...another time...but if it is never enough and accepted you lose the interest. Poland should accept the russian gesture!

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Nov 26, 10, 20:00 #8

delphiandomine:

The problem isn't so much the Russians, but rather the Poles that will refuse to accept it. It's another olive banch from Russia - but alas, too many people here have interests in still "opposing" Russia at all costs.

The benefit for Poland, is that Russia now sees a friend at the big meeting table, instead of a foe in the times of LK. Rus wants the PL vote and a trading partner to the west, PL is ready to move on from the past and get down to business. This should not be considered "an olive branch from Russia" and we should praise both sets of diplomats behind closed doors, who are creating a new partnership. The statements in the press are nothing more than pacifying, both sets of old guard.

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Nov 26, 10, 20:02 #9
Bratwurst Boy: Yes...and? What did it got him??? You apologize one time...you apologize...another time... If it means anything BB i forgave you guys

kondziorThreads: 2 Posts: 441 Joined: Oct 16, 09 ♂	Nov 26, 10, 20:05 #10
It is irritating. Recently TV is full of nice things about Russians. I hate it, as it got to be part of some campagin. The government, for some reason, wants me to start liking the Russian bastards? They try to manipulate me?! Fu**ck it! Who they think they are? I am going to hate Russians even more. Just out spite.

Lodz_The_BoatThreads: 58 Posts: 2,314 Joined: Sep 7, 08 ♂	Nov 26, 10, 20:15 #11
PennBoy: BB i forgave you guys Just these guys can make sure that they bring warmth to their hearts ... if possible for all people regardless of race and color. This is only possible for a person with a warm heart, a beautiful mind ... and a clear soul.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Nov 26, 10, 20:15 #12
PennBoy: If it means anything BB i forgave you guys feels better now :)

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Nov 26, 10, 20:20 #13

Lodz_The_Boat:

Just these guys can make sure that they bring warmth to their hearts ...

♀

Nov 26, 10, 20:59 #14

Bratwurst Boy:

There is this famous gesture by Willy Brand, kneeling down in Warsaw...you can't get more apologizing than that...but did that help the reconciliation??? Nooooooooooooooo

Funny you mention that - I've had an argument with a German guy editing wikipedia article on this gesture and he claims that it was an apology to the Jews, since he knelt at the memorial of the Ghetto Uprising. What is the official interpretation in Germany?

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 26, 10, 21:13 #15

vetala:

What is the official interpretation in Germany?

From Brandt's memories

Brandt was repeatedly interviewed about the genuflection and about his motives. He later noted that:

(German original) "Unter der Last der jüngsten Geschichte tat ich, was Menschen tun, wenn die Worte versagen. So gedachte ich Millionen Ermordeter."[3]

(English translation) Under the weight of recent history, I did what people do when words fail them. In this way I commemorated millions of murdered people.[4]

He for sure didn't meant only the Jews...he could have done it in Auschwitz!

Also the kneefall is seen in Germany as the beginning of Germany's new "Ostpolitik" under
chancellor Brandt. A reconciliation starting with an apology...nothing to do with Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostpolitik

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Nov 26, 10, 21:14 #16

delphiandomine:

The problem isn't so much the Russians, but rather the Poles that will refuse to accept it. It's another olive banch from Russia - but alas, too many people here have interests in still "opposing" Russia at all costs.

Why shouldn't they. Why always give into 'big scary russia' ?
Polands relationship with Russia is like that of two people in a sexual relationship, either one is passive the other active - they can not be just 'Friends'. Trust

Anyway, Russians are funny and they always scheming with Germans ! and the like

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Nov 26, 10, 21:32 #17

Bratwurst Boy:

He for sure didn't meant only the Jews...he could have done it in Auschwitz!

vetala:

Funny you mention that - I've had an argument with a German guy editing wikipedia article on this gesture and he claims that it was an apology to the Jews

He meant all Polish citizens, this was 1970 communist Poland there was no Warsaw Uprising memorial or museum like we have today to do that on, the Home Army (Armia Krajowa) were considered anti communist nationalists even traitors (don't ask me why)

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Nov 26, 10, 22:28 #18

Bratwurst Boy:

Yeah...Poles love their grudges.
There is this famous gesture by Willy Brand, kneeling down in Warsaw...you can't get more apologizing than that...but did that help the reconciliation??? Nooooooooooooooo

:(

Oh please. You know what a real Polish grudge against Germany would be? Poles today going across Germany and terrorizing German cities and giving the Germans a little taste of what they did to the Poles.

Frankly I think Poland largely has been a very good sport about what Germany did to Poland in WWII.

Not only did Poland lose millions of its citizens, on net it lost about a third of its land and to add insult to injury if the German destruction of Poland (hundreds of billions of dollars in damage if not more) was not enough, Poland got to look forward to 45 years of Soviet domination while watching most of Germany being given tons of American grants and loans to be built back up. Not to mention Poland was subjected to old Nazi anti-Polish propaganda about Poles being "inferior", "Poles having inferior intelligence and culture", etc, even after the Nazis were gone, since Soviet Sympathizers were then using it to justify the Soviet domination of Poland.

So what is this big Polish grudge against Germany today? Are the Poles bombing German cities and terrorizing Germany today or terrorizing German institutions worldwide? Answer a BIG NO!

So you occasionally hear some Poles think about what the Nazi Germans did to their relatives and how it has affected their families and how the people who did it to them basically got away with it. Oh the horror of it!!! Such a mean grudge they have!

No frankly Poland should be given credit for being a good sport about happened to it by Germany. Today Poland and Germany get along fairly well despite their past. Just imagine if Poland did to Germany what Germany did to Poland in WWII. Poland would be whiped off the map today and no amount of a Polish leader's bowing in regret would be seen as a sufficient gesture of apology

Here is something from YOUR own article you posted recently:

The Katyn massacre really is, in this sense, partially Germany’s responsibility: without Germany’s collusion with the Soviet Union, it would not have happened. Yet modern Germany’s very real sense of guilt about the Holocaust does NOT often extend to Soviet soldiers or even to Poles.

Anne Apple Baum - Eastern Europe sacrificed for Western Europe/West Germany
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/worst-madness/?pa gination=false

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 26, 10, 22:34 #19
MediaWatch: So what is this big Polish grudge against Germany today? You don't live here, you don't hear what people say about Gemans. I'm not sure why you continue to comment on Polish issues when you frankly have little to no understanding of what people are thinking here.

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Nov 26, 10, 22:46 #20

delphiandomine:

You don't live here, you don't hear what people say about Gemans.

I'm not sure why you continue to comment on Polish issues when you frankly have little to no understanding of what people are thinking here.

Oh will you get off this "delpiandomine lives in Poland" nonsense?

Its a bunch of bull just like your bull about being from Scotland LOL!!!

Your that same fool going around other national forums setting up your fake identities and even having others (your aliases) vouching for your identity.

You always try to play one group against the Poles.

Go ahead try to play the Poles against the Germans.

I have a lot of stuff on BIG GRUDGES STILL between your Russians and the Germans.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,388 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Nov 26, 10, 22:46 #21
MediaWatch: Oh please. You know what a real Polish grudge against Germany would be? Poles today going across Germany and terrorizing German cities and giving the Germans a little taste of what they did to the Poles. The relations between PL and Germany are at an all time high, so I would have to back up Delph here, you don't have a clue buddy.

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Nov 27, 10, 02:43 #22

warszawski:

The relations between PL and Germany are at an all time high, so I would have to back up Delph here, you don't have a clue buddy.

Hey buddy you just made my point.

Relations between Germany and Poland are at an all time high. So just because there may be some individual Poles who voice their own "grudge" against Germany, its not representative of the relations of Germany and Poland in general.

I'm not sure how you can back up Delph when he's trying to imply the opposite of what you're saying, with his focus on what he claims are things some Poles are saying about Germans.

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Nov 27, 10, 02:53 #23

MediaWatch:

I'm not sure how you can back up Delph when he's trying to imply the opposite of what you're saying, with his focus on what he claims are things some Poles are saying about Germans.

After re-reading the post, I will reiterate, the relations between PL and Germany are at all time highs in diplomatic,government and business levels, there may be people at street level who do not share this view. But the old guard will always try to cling to the past.

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Nov 27, 10, 03:06 #24

warszawski:

After re-reading the post, I will reiterate, the relations between PL and Germany are at all time highs in diplomatic,government and business levels, there may be people at street level who do not share this view. But the old guard will always try to cling to the past.

warszawski,

I agree with you on this. Maybe I didn't explain myself better before.

If the key political and business decision makers in both Germany and Poland today are getting along pretty well I think that is very notable and good for both Germans and Poles and they should not take this for granted, considering the historical conflicts between the two countries. As for some people on the streets of both countries, you will always have people that have differing opinions. When you have millions of people on the street of both countries, of course by law of averages you are bound to have varying opinions.

The same thing almost applies to Russia as well. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but Poland-Russia relations are pretty high right now too. Germany,Poland & Russia frankly should feel good that their 3 way relationship is relatively pretty good. The key here is RELATIVELY SPEAKING, since we know nothing is perfect in life.

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Nov 27, 10, 03:12 #25

MediaWatch:

If the key political and business decision makers in both Germany and Poland today are getting along pretty well I think that is very notable and good for both Germans and Poles

Because quite a few people are throwing off the idea of being German or Polish, and seeing themselves as European.

That said, there are still quite a few people that harbor a not so hidden resentment towards Germans.

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Nov 27, 10, 05:11 #26

MediaWatch:

The same thing almost applies to Russia as well. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but Poland-Russia relations are pretty high right now too. Germany,Poland & Russia frankly should feel good that their 3 way relationship is relatively pretty good. The key here is RELATIVELY SPEAKING, since we know nothing is perfect in life.

In this axis of 3, personally I am only interested in the benefits for PL, but I do agree a working platform is good for the future of the three. But as far as the cake is concerned larger slices will go to germany and russia, but it is still beneficial for PL to eat at the same table.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Nov 27, 10, 10:05 #27
Russian Duma Condemns Stalin Over Katyn and about time. Stalin even wasn`t ethnic Russian. anyway, those are good news from Russia

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Nov 27, 10, 10:38 #28
warszawski: But the old guard will always try to cling to the past. Indeed, and what makes it funny is that most of them are simply repeating the nonsense that was fed to them during Communist times.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07 ♂	Dec 11, 10, 23:40 #29
kondzior: Fu**ck it! Who they think they are? I am going to hate Russians even more. Just out spite Remember Katyn. If you refuse to like us you should be prepared.

kondziorThreads: 2 Posts: 441 Joined: Oct 16, 09 ♂	Dec 12, 10, 11:26 #30
Since I was called to the table... But Constantin, I do remember, and I am prepared. Really I am. I am prepared to pay you, the Russians, in kind. To pay you for Katyn and Smolensk. Indeed I am. It is only fair to re-pay Russia what it did to us recently.

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