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Russian reaction to the tragedy in Smolensk


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Triba  Apr 14, 10, 10:46    #241
Dear Poles,
As a Russian and a Muscovite, I would like to add my voice to the Russians expressing their sorrow over your loss. Regardless of Mr. Kazcynski's attitude toward our country, such tragedy is the last thing we would want to happen to a nation that most Russians regard not only as our long-time neighbor, but also as distant relative.

I must apologize for the numerous gloating comments and expressions of Schadenfreude that you might find on Russian webforums and blogs these days. I won't go as far as to claim that such opinions are marginal in our public, but they surely don't account for the majority of Russians. The people spewing this hatred are mainly bitter ageing bachelors or sexually-deprived high-schoolers who have just recently discovered the indulging informality of internet discussions and are now abusing it to troll about.

In reality, if you've ever lived in Russia, you'd know that a lot of Russians actually have a soft spot for Poles. We don't like to remember the nasty things our country did to Poland in 1939, 1943, 1981 etc., but we ALWAYS remember that the Poles were our allies on many occasions, from Grunwald to WW2; that Poles have a proud history tightly linked to ours on many instances; that they are fellow Slavs whose achievements give us one more reason to be proud.

Last but not least, Polish cinema and the Polish sense of humor have been popular in Russia throughout the past half-a-century. Did you know that Polish actors like Jerzy Stuhr, Bohuslav Linda and Michal Zebrowski have almost more fans in Russia than at home? Or that Juliusz Machulski's movies are comedy classics in our country.

There might be plenty of spiteful trolling and occasional political abuse between our two nations, but there's one thing Poles can be confident about: If, God forbid, a meteor was ever to fall on Poland, the Russians would be there en masse with aid, transports and emergency relief teams. And if an invader (other than ourselves, hehe) should ever step foot in Poland, there'd be an abundance of volunteers itching to square up for the 'Slavic brother'.
That's just the way we feel for you.

P.S. By the way, the Katyn tragedy has been disclosed and fiercely discussed in Russia ever since the late 1980s. Many Russians refuse to belive their country is to blame for the massacre, but at least this issue is not swept under the carpet in our society.
richasisThreads: 5
Posts: 833
Joined: Jul 25, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: richasis  Apr 14, 10, 10:54    #242
Triba:
bitter ageing bachelors or sexually-deprived high-schoolers who have just recently discovered the indulging informality of internet discussions

You have them there too, eh? Thank you for your honest thoughts and kind words - it goes to show we're all human.
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 14, 10, 10:54    #243
Andor:
but the bitter taste of constantly being a "suspect" will stay with me to the rest of my life.


Its good to hear from a Russian who lived through this time....I hope that these days people can see it was the Russian system that was evil , not the Russian people...

I grew up in an age where the Russians were always thought of as the bad guys , the people who were just waiting for a chance to destroy us all , when i served in the UK armed forces it was always the Russians we expected to fight if we ever went to war...

My opinions were changed somewhat when for the first time i drove my car from the UK into Russia , back in 1997....during my journey i met so many kind friendly people , who went out of their way to help whenever it was needed...

Part of my journey was to help childern in Belarus , affected by the Chernobyl accident , seeing people act with such courage and dignity as they watch their childern die has a profound effect on you , no matter how tough you think you are....These people , who had so very little showed me such hospitality , and i shall never forget them...

In Russia i met so many nice people , and made some great friends , and it was great to discover that they do not have horns , they are not full of evil , they are just people , just like the rest of us , who feel pain and sorrow as we all do...

I sincerly hope the Polish nation will , after this terrible tragedy in Smolensk grow a little friendlier towards the Russians , such a friendship would be better for both countries....

I don,t say we should forget the past...but i do say , please don,t let it destroy the future....
JedThreads: -
Posts: 235
Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂ 		 Apr 14, 10, 11:00    #244
wildrover:
I grew up in an age where the Russians were always thought of as the bad guys , the people who were just waiting for a chance to destroy us all , when i served in the UK armed forces it was always the Russians we expected to fight if we ever went to war...


I grew up in an age where the Americans were always thought of as the bad guys , the people who were just waiting for a chance to destroy us all , when i served in the SU armed forces it was always the NATO we expected to fight if we ever went to war... :)
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: wildrover  Apr 14, 10, 11:20    #245
Jed:
it was always the NATO we expected to fight


Thank god we didn,t have to do it my friend...i would much rather we shared a beer together and not spend time shooting at each other....!

One strange moment i had in Russia was having a drink of vodka with a man who used to be a Russian soldier...his job , had war come about would have been to fire a nuclear missile at the area of the UK where i lived...

We got drunk together and decided the whole idea of fighting each other was rather stupid...we are still friends to this day....!

I see you live in Moscow....do you know the class centre music school...? my girlfriend is a teacher of Russian language and culture there....maybe one day when i visit Moscow we can have a beer together...??
JedThreads: -
Posts: 235
Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: Jed  Apr 14, 10, 11:27    #246
wildrover:
his job , had war come about would have been to fire a nuclear missile at the area of the UK where i lived...


he possible drunk some vodka before - it's unlikely that a soldier could know where his missile is pointed... :)

wildrover:
I see you live in Moscow....do you know the class centre music school...? my girlfriend is a teacher of Russian language and culture there....maybe one day when i visit Moscow we can have a beer together...??


I never heard the name of that school - may be it sounds different in Russian. But the idea is good!
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,727
Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: SeanBM  Apr 14, 10, 11:33    #247
Jed:
I grew up in an age where the Americans were always thought of as the bad guys , the people who were just waiting for a chance to destroy us all

It is amazing how time changes so much, they were terrifing times, we were on the brink of nuclear war, the end of civilization.
This tragedy shows how times have changed for most people and how Poland is a gateway from West to East.

wildrover:
One strange moment i had in Russia was having a drink of vodka with a man who used to be a Russian soldier...his job , had war come about would have been to fire a nuclear missile at the area of the UK where i lived...

We got drunk together and decided the whole idea of fighting each other was rather stupid...we are still friends to this day....!

LOL Stranger than fiction...

Edit*

I would just like too say that the Polish people I have spoken to and what they say on the radio here in Poland, reflects a new, more positive era for Polish/Russian relations in my opinion.
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,024
Joined: Apr 10, 09  Pictures: 1  Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		Edited by: Torq  Apr 14, 10, 14:09    #248
@Triba:

It is truly a pleasure to read such a message coming from a Russian. Thank you very much
for your kind words! After reading a lot of comments on Russian blogs and forums (ignoring
the sad minority of them that were disrespectful) I am confident that Russia and Poland
will finally improve their mutual relations.
SashaThreads: 2
Posts: 1,597
Joined: Apr 19, 08  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Apr 14, 10, 14:40    #249
Triba:
In reality, if you've ever lived in Russia, you'd know that a lot of Russians actually have a soft spot for Poles.


Triba:
Last but not least, Polish cinema and the Polish sense of humor have been popular in Russia throughout the past half-a-century. Did you know that Polish actors like Jerzy Stuhr, Bohuslav Linda and Michal Zebrowski have almost more fans in Russia than at home? Or that Juliusz Machulski's movies are comedy classics in our country.


Triba:
And if an invader (other than ourselves, hehe) should ever step foot in Poland, there'd be an abundance of volunteers itching to square up for the 'Slavic brother'.


Great observations, Triba and great post! That's a pleasure for me to witness we're finally thoughtful and kind people the way I've always wanted us to be. I even didn't expect that warm support myself.
Still can't figure out though why it takes tragedy to melt down the iceberg of indefference.
celinskiThreads: 83
Posts: 2,800
Joined: Nov 14, 07 ♀ 		 Apr 14, 10, 15:44    #250
Triba:
P.S. By the way, the Katyn tragedy has been disclosed and fiercely discussed in Russia ever since the late 1980s. Many Russians refuse to belive their country is to blame for the massacre, but at least this issue is not swept under the carpet in our society.



Thank you for the great post Triba. I just wanted to hear your honest thoughts on what is being asked of Russia in reguards to "Katyn"?
PibwlThreads: -
Posts: 69
Joined: Feb 18, 10 ♂ 		 Apr 14, 10, 17:58    #251
I also would like to thank people of Russia - starting from Putin and Medvedev, to anonymous grazhdanie bringing flowers and lighting candles. Especially to those. And to these, who care to find some Polish-inhabited forum, to express their solidarity.
James86Threads: -
Posts: 4
Joined: Apr 14, 10 ♂ 		 Apr 14, 10, 20:09    #252
I think Putin and Medvedev have responded with true dignity
Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34
Posts: 2,358
Joined: Dec 16, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 14, 10, 20:44    #253
James86:
I think Putin and Medvedev have responded with true dignity

/nod
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,024
Joined: Apr 10, 09  Pictures: 1  Gold Member MEMBER ♂ 		Edited by: Torq  Apr 15, 10, 20:16    #254
Polish TVN reporters going to Smolensk could count on the help of Russians,
who hearing Polish language being spoken, approached them and offered their
help. They encountered many signs of sympathy from various people in Russia.

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/2155740,12,item.html

The program will be shown on TVN, on Monday at 11.20PM
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 15, 10, 20:21    #255
Be mindful of propaganda and ostensible kindness, Torqy. I want to think as you do and am almost there but even Russians know of their government's sly ways, especially them in many ways. I am not a Russian spy or agent as CK and others have said. I try to be more sympathetic to the Russian position but Kasparov has said it all in his various critiques against them. Still, I applaud their efforts and cooperation but I just hope they allow all aspects of the investigation to be thorough and that territorial jurisdiction is not too rigidly applied.
ShawnHThreads: 9
Posts: 3,056
Joined: Jul 2, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: ShawnH  Apr 17, 10, 19:51    #256
Interesting article in the NY Times:

It was as if estranged relatives suddenly realized that their bad blood was unseemly and petty in the face of tragedy. And at the vanguard of this reversal was Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin himself, whose office once accused Mr. Kaczynski of “slashing anti-Russian statements” but who now offered soulful eulogies to him.

There are probably as many motives for Russian sympathy as there are Russians.

The outpouring was not unified — some Russians, including diehard Communists, said that Mr. Kaczynski was still an enemy. However they reacted, Russians looked upon these events through the prism of the history between these two peoples.

Just like any nation, really.
OlgaThreads: 2
Posts: 380
Joined: Apr 12, 10 ♀ 		 Apr 17, 10, 22:15    #257
This is too funny, I just couldn't resist:

"Damn straight Pushkin cursed. Lermontov? Sh*t yeah! Tolstoy cursed like a motherf*cker. Russians have been cursing since before the Mongol invasion, despite legends to the contrary. Ancient birch barks have been unearthed with the same vulgar roots scrawled on them as are found defacing today's subway stations.

If you're a hard-core student of Russian, rest assured: you're going to encounter mat, the dark shadow of literary Russian—whether it's in a Petersburg bar or a Pelevin novel. Mat is more than mere slang; it's an extremely versatile language in its own right—more complex and more expressive than anything English has to offer. Let's be honest: if the Cold War had come down to cursing, we'd all be speaking Russian."
AlexanderThreads: -
Posts: 1
Joined: Apr 25, 10 ♂ 		Edited by: Alexander  Apr 25, 10, 14:54    #258
Dear Poles!

Let me express my deepest heartfelt condolences to the Polish people. We in Russia are going through with you and mourn the bereavement. Let's overcome this difficult time and begin with bilding new relationship between us. In Russia there is no aggressive intentions towards Poland. Оur mutual history has a lot of tragic events. Let us forgive each other all that was and the air is cleaner. We should not move in future generations the evil of the past. We must be good mutual. Stop mutual suspicion. Now there is an obvious opportunity to start for building a new life. The blood of the victims of the air crash can stop negative history and enlighten for future.

PS
I am 48 years old. I am Russian. I has been living in Moscow 9 years (before on North Caucasus). I would like to discuss with Poles what you are interested in. I look forward to hearing from you soon. My E-mail is: alexanderplats@mail.ru
MareGaeaThreads: 45
Posts: 5,527
Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 25, 10, 15:03    #259
While very noble, I personally don't see the point that the Russians have to go on their knees time and time again, just because an accident happened on their soil. Condolences are ok, even though it's two weeks ago, but you shouldn't apologize, there is no need to do that. No matter how horrible accidents like these are, it's just an accident, nothing more, nothing less.

Only because there are some idiots on this forum that stupendously keep persisting in seeing conspiracies and ghosts which are not there, you guys have to apologize all the time? Heck no, PL needs to cope with the new realitiy and those ppl who focus too much of their energy in finding conspiracies which simply are not there, should find a job to direct their energy or simply seek professional help for being paranoid.

>^..^<

M-G (why can't some ppl just simply accept the reality of an accident?)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 25, 10, 15:07    #260
Conspiracies which are not there? They are there, M-G. It's called 'questioning the evidence'. However, there just isn't enough to go on at the moment.
Drac90Threads: 2
Posts: 120
Joined: Apr 23, 10 ♂ 		 Apr 25, 10, 16:45    #261
Thanks, i never saw Russians or Russia as a whole as enemy :D i playing in games with Russians is also always fun, in browser MMO not always, Russians are indeed best hackers :D
Im happy that more poles after this tragedy have warm feeling toward Russia and i explainin to every idiot that belive in some conspiracy theory how stupid he/she is. Thanks for support again
MareGaeaThreads: 45
Posts: 5,527
Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 25, 10, 17:55    #262
Seanus:
Conspiracies which are not there? They are there, M-G. It's called 'questioning the evidence'. However, there just isn't enough to go on at the moment.


Seanus, aren't all those conspiracy-theories based on the "knowledge of hindsight"? If you look at things in hindsight, they always will be up for multiple interpretations. In the case of 9/11 it's quite easy to rebuke most of the conspiracies. Lack of communication? Well, what would you do if sb comes to you and says some crazy Arabs are going to not only blow up your house, but destroy your school and village as well? I am sure you would alarm everybody and perform a massive scale evacuation and everybody will be fully supportive, even though you don't have any proof that it will happen yet. Just think about it.

And "questioning the evidence"? Well, all evidence is always susceptible for multiple interpretation. And: do I have to believe per sé the "evidence" handed to me by conspirationists?

>^..^<

M-G (let's just say that conspiracy theories are just that, THEORIES. Nice hobby if you have nothing to do, but furthermore pretty useless)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 25, 10, 18:00    #263
Because they are often followed by patriots who want to know the truth and not fed the official drivel line that patronises us.

You will always have groups reaching different conclusions based on how they have been trained to analyse and also on their professional interest, objectives etc.

Seanus (disappointed that M-G blindly follows the main line at the expense of reason)
MareGaeaThreads: 45
Posts: 5,527
Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂ 		Edited by: MareGaea  Apr 25, 10, 21:34    #264
Seanus:
disappointed that M-G blindly follows the main line at the expense of reason)


Hey, just for the record: I always act out of reason. That's why I have trouble with c-t's. They smell too much like speculation to me. And if I want to speculate, I go to the stock exchange or to the bookies' :) There is a difference between wanting to know the truth and wasting your time, as you may or may not know. For example, why should I take information seriously that claims that the 9/11 attacks were the work of the Mossad or an inside job? The former is mainly being claimed by groups or individuals who see Jewish/Israeli ghosts everywhere, therefore it's not really surprising that they come with this, the latter is being repeatedly rebuked by Al Quaeda herself: up to 19 times she has claimed the attackes and blames the many attempts of c-t on the Iranian Sjiites as an afford to deminish a Sunnite success.
And to be honest, why would an organisation bent on destroying the US and Israël publicly claim those attacks, while it would be much mor profitable for them to have the Israeli blamed or even causing some sort of civil war in the US if it should turn out to be an inside job? That would be exactly her target. And they are way too clever to not let this happen while they had the chance: this would be exactly what they wanted to happen and it would be a darn cheap way to do so too!
Let's be fair, Seanus.

Edit: It's in Al Qaeda's interest to have it protrayed as a Jewish thing or an inside job. That would make life so much easier for them. Yet they claim repeatedly that they are responsible. Why do they do that?

>^..^<

M-G (thinks this scenario is much more likely)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		Edited by: Moderator  Apr 25, 10, 21:39    #265
I've already extensively dealt with 9/11 and shown very clearly the position. This is about the Russian reaction to the tragedy and their findings.

you've each had your right to reply. any more and it goes in the bin.
JedThreads: -
Posts: 235
Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂ 		 Apr 28, 10, 15:00    #266
Russia publishes Katyn massacre archives:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8648275.stm

This crash put Katyn massacre to the bright spot for Russian public...
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 6, 10, 23:42    #267
It turns out that the author of the guy who shot that video at Smoleńsk is alive. There is a program on TVN about him now. He is being interviewed at the moment.
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 6, 10, 23:48    #268
Seanus:
It turns out that the author of the guy who shot that video at Smoleńsk is alive.


Its no suprise to me...he was supposed to have been bumped off in Kiev , but i was there just after this , and the cops in Kiev assured me the story was complete and utter bollox....
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Sep 6, 10, 23:49    #269
Seanus:
It turns out that the author of the guy who shot that video at Smoleńsk is alive. There is a program on TVN about him now. He is being interviewed at the moment.


Where's MediaWatch and his stories from the Kavkaz Center? LOL.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Sep 7, 10, 00:08    #270
They are having a laugh, just like 9/11. The guy was clear about what he saw but I am not clear that that was him. Agendas agendas :(

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