Russians again meddling in Polish affairs

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,551 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Mar 16, 10, 02:27 #1
By claiming they knwo nothing of Pres. Kaczyński's Katyń visit on 10th April, the Russians are causing tension and confusion within Poland's poltical class, and the Poles have fallen for the bait. The Kremlin is therefore deepning the wedge between the PO camp and the presidential palace. Chaos in Poland has always been a Russian priority since the partitions.

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂	Mar 16, 10, 06:20 #2
Russians again meddling in Polłish affairs frankly, i would say that Poland goes pretty nice with Russians considering Poland`s NATO membership and by that, considering NATO aggressive policy on Russia, on entire world after all.

♂

Mar 16, 10, 06:42 #3

Polonius3:

By claiming they knwo nothing of Pres. Kaczyński's Katyń visit on 10th April, the Russians are causing tension and confusion within Poland's poltical class, and the Poles have fallen for the bait. The Kremlin is therefore deepning the wedge between the PO camp and the presidential palace. Chaos in Poland has always been a Russian priority since the partitions.

The way you're trying to represent things is pretty much one-sided. I can't say the current Russian policy towards Poland is very warm, but nor can I say that about the Polish one. AFAIK, Tusk is invited which is quite logical considering his careful/neat dialogue he carries on with Moscow, whereas Mr. Utkin (utka=kaczka) became rather boring with his antirussian approach/sentiments long ago.
I for my part cherish a hope we will reveal documents concerning Katyn and come up with the official excuses rehabilitating those who were killed. Hopefully things will get better...

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂	Edited by: 1jola Mar 16, 10, 06:58 #4
Given the importance of the event to Poles, Putin's failure to invite the President is quite predictable. That KGB training pays off.

DarunThreads: 1 Posts: 71 Joined: Oct 24, 09 ♂	Mar 16, 10, 07:21 #5
From what I've understood they are saying that they know nothing of his schedule, not of his actual visit. Which is quite different. They probably don't have the schedule yet, which according to diplomatic rules must be sent by the Polish side, but it is still time for it, it's no hurry.

SashaThreads: 2 Posts: 1,558 Joined: Apr 19, 08 ♂	Mar 16, 10, 07:28 #6
Darun: From what I've understood they are saying that they know nothing of his schedule, not of his actual visit Yes, this is what they officially say. :) That's a diplomacy... a mild way to say "Kaczynski we like Tusk a lot more".

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 16, 10, 07:57 #7

Sasha:

hope we will reveal documents concerning Katyn and come up with the official excuses rehabilitating those who were killed

Rehabilitating those who were killed, Sasha? You can only rehabilitate those who were
unfairly convicted of a crime. Poles murdered in Katyń were NOT convicted of any crime,
simply because they didn't have any trial of any kind.

They were murdered...

...with their hands tied behind their backs, worse than perverted criminals, with a shot
in the back of their heads - worse than animals meant for slaughter, in a quickly dug
holes - worse than 'padlina' in the times of plague... That's what happened to Polish
Army officers.

...without any trial, withour proving their guilt, without guilt itself - thousands od prisoners
of war, who in good faith surrendered their weapons to Russians...

...without even the slightest military justification, against all possible international
conventions - how could you call it anything else than genocide?

In the Katyń forest the half of Polish officer corps was murdered, including many
reservists - the flower of Polish intelligentsia. They will not be found by rotmistrz
Czapski (acting on order of general Anders). They will not be in allied headquarters
or on the battlefields in the West, they will not be para-dropped on Polish land
as Cichociemni avengers. They will not fight as partisans in the forest, when after
the deafeat of one occupying force, Polish army will face another. They will be missed
in the tradition of our military - it is the wound that will most probably never be healed.

No, Sasha, they don't need "rehabilitation" at all. They were never guilty of any crime.

What is needed is a straightforward admittance of Soviet crime of genocide and
introducing the law to punish those who even today defame the memory of the
dead and write books and articles about the "anti-Russian lie" and I certainly hope
that it will FINALLY be sorted out by Russian authorities.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 16, 10, 08:33 #8
I've read Moscow is to invite Poland to the victory parade in May....;)

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Mar 16, 10, 09:03 #9

Torq:

They were murdered...

Torq, take it easy. That's what I'm basically saying. The initial position of the SU was that those people were criminals (to justify the Soviet crime), and they nominally, juridically still are. I don't know the way you read it but rehabilitation in a such a situation is absolutely normal procedure (which is by the way what the official Poland rightfully ask for). The primary step is of course admittance and submission of all related documents but how would you feel if the officers stay guilty even on paper?

Btw I do not support the term "genocide" here. Some groups in Russia still strongly believe that the communist era was kind of genocide against Russians embedded by Jews. I don't share this idea. Communists fought classes (those were millions of Russians, Poles, Germans, Jews...) they didn't fight nations or ethnic groups. That was their basic distinction with nazies.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 16, 10, 09:12 #10

Sasha:

That was their basic distinction with nazies.

Is it? Whole Kulak families got killed or deported....women, children too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak#Dekulakization

Stalin requested severe measures to put an end to the kulak resistance. In a speech given at a Marxist agrarian conference, he stated that, "From a policy of limiting the exploitative tendencies of the kulaks, we have gone over to a policy of liquidating the kulaks as a class."

The party agreed to the use of force in the collectivization and dekulakization efforts. The kulaks were to be liquidated as a class and subject to one of three fates: death sentence, labor settlements (not to be confused with labor camps, although the former were also managed by the GULAG), or deportation "out of regions of total collectivization of the agriculture".

The Jews were persecuted because they too were stylized as a "class", the financial, blood sucking, "enemy of the hard working people - class", sounds familiar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

The basic motivation [of the Holocaust] was purely ideological, rooted in an illusionary world of Nazi imagination, where an international Jewish conspiracy to control the world was opposed to a parallel Aryan quest. No genocide to date had been based so completely on myths, on hallucinations, on abstract, nonpragmatic ideology – which was then executed by very rational, pragmatic means."[35]

Was it really so much different?

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 16, 10, 09:57 #11

Sasha:

rq, take it easy. That's what I'm basically saying. The initial position of the SU was that those people were criminals (to justify the Soviet crime), and they nominally, juridically still are. I don't know the way you read it but rehabilitation in a such a situation is absolutely normal procedure (which is by the way what the official Poland rightfully ask for). The primary step is of course admittance and submission of all related documents but how would you feel if the officers stay guilty even on paper?

Well, if that's the case then I guess they should be "rehabilitated". I just felt that
the use of the word was so inappropriate here.

Sasha:

they didn't fight nations or ethnic groups

I beg to differ here (even when it comes to Poles in former Soviet Union,
where in the late 30's over 100 thousand of them were murdered in an organised
action - people of all classes, from peasants to intelligentsia).

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Mar 16, 10, 10:01 #12

Bratwurst Boy:

Is it?

Yes, BB, from my perspective that was the basic distinction.

Bratwurst Boy:

Whole Kulak families got killed or deported....women, children too.

This sounds somewhat irrelevant to the issue. My grandparents were kulaks too, were deported too. Why? Because they were relatively rich. That's it. That had nothing to do with their ethnic background whatsoever.

Bratwurst Boy:

The Jews were persecuted because they too were stylized as a "class", the financial, blood sucking, "enemy of the hard working people - class", sounds familiar?

Yes, anticommunist Jews were persecuted by pro-communist ones. You may as well refer to a pretty famous lenins speech about antisemitism.

Bratwurst Boy:

Nazi imagination, where an international Jewish conspiracy to control the world was opposed to a parallel Aryan quest.

Bratwurst Boy:

Was it really so much different?

This way we may end up saying that an apple is actually the same as a pear, just they look and taste different. Up to a point many things may look alike.

♂

Edited by: purplewolf Mar 16, 10, 11:21 #13

Sasha:

Some groups in Russia still strongly believe that the communist era was kind of genocide against Russians embedded by Jews.

That's typical for you : blaiming other nations and foreign groups for your own crimes.. No doubt about Jewish presence though - many of communists had Jewish roots indeed.. But it goes to extremes and paradox conclusions as if all russians were saints.. Jews participated in communist crimes in thousands, you did it in millions.. What's even more important you never apologized for it... The portrait of Beria, the killer of Poles, is still hung in the hall of Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs..

http://w907.wrzuta.pl/obraz/powieksz/6saSP5TmweZ

And you still blame Germans for what happened in Katyn which is not only immoral, it's simply another crime against memory of the murdered people...

You can't describe yourself as innocent victims of Jewish crimes... Overusing the fact that people around the world dislike Jews to whitewash your history is totally immoral and unacceptable.. Millions of you collaborated with communists completely freewillingly, it means that millions of you were killers...

Part of family of my father was killed not by Jews but by primitive Russian ape-soldiers who were destroying and raping everything and everyone they met on their way...

♂

Edited by: Sasha Mar 16, 10, 11:55 #14

Torq:

Well, if that's the case then I guess they should be "rehabilitated"

My apologies for that I didn't sound clear enough. I couldn't think of how to put it better.

Torq:

I beg to differ here (even when it comes to Poles in former Soviet Union,
where in the late 30's over 100 thousand of them were murdered in an organised
action - people of all classes, from peasants to intelligentsia).

Yes, but the class issue was resolved by commies in a different manner. The question was whether you support/loyal/sympathize with the regime or oppose it by any means possible.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 16, 10, 13:32 #15

Sasha:

My apologies for that I didn't sound clear enough. I couldn't think of how to put it better.

That's OK. I overreacted to the word as well, sorry.

Sasha:

Yes, but the class issue was resolved by commies in a different manner. The question was whether you support/loyal/sympathize with the regime or oppose it by any means possible.

But those people weren't opposing Soviet government in any way. They were
simply seen as a "potential threat" to Soviet power based only on their nationality
not class.

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Mar 16, 10, 13:49 #16

Sasha:

I don't share this idea. Communists fought classes (those were millions of Russians, Poles, Germans, Jews...) they didn't fight nations or ethnic groups. That was their basic distinction with nazies.

What class did Russian communists fight in Holodomor? By 1932-33 rich Ukrainian peasants were either shot or deported in Siberia, where they have never come from. What class of people left consisted of around 8 million people? What about Great famines in 1921-22 and 1946-47? Was it a class or a nation?
Russian communists fought nations and classes. They tried to eradicate not only the brain of the nation, but simply physically destroy whole country. How different do you see that is from plans Nazi held?
In case of Katyn it was killing intellectual force, which could not only stand physically in defense of their country, but presented a powerful force of spirit. It wasn't class that Russians were killing, it was anyone who carried anything that can be collectively called a nation.

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Edited by: Sasha Mar 16, 10, 15:03 #17

Torq:

They were
simply seen as a "potential threat" to Soviet power based only on their nationality
not class.

The Russian language has a term "volnodumci", literally "free-thinkers" for that. We both perfectly fit this definition yet technically belong to different nations. We both would be enemies for commies.

Nat, let's reckon up your lies you managed to impart in one message.

Nathan:

What class did Russian communists fight in Holodomor?

Fail. Soviet communists. There were lots of Ukrainians among them, Ukranians are notorious as rather diligent members of NKVD.

Nathan:

What class of people left consisted of around 8 million people?

What are these figures about? If you count the overall quantity of famine victims in the SU you won't get the mentioned figure even if add the Russians who starved (here by "Russians" I mean those people who were not resided on nowadays Ukrainian territory).

Nathan:

Was it a class or a nation?

It was a class consisted of multiple nations. Not only Ukrainians, Russians or Poles or whoever.

Nathan:

Russian communists fought nations and classes.

That remains to be your claim. So far you haven't submitted any arguments to back it up.

Nathan:

They tried to eradicate not only the brain of the nation

Would you please give me a list of those nations.

Nathan:

but simply physically destroy whole country

What country, Nat? Are you alright? Do you usually saw the branch you're sitting on?

Nathan:

How different do you see that is from plans Nazi held?

If you want to look for any similarities with Nazy regime then I would rather refer to your praised compatriot Bandera. There you could find a lot more resemblance starting from nazi-salute, killing and persecuting people basing on their national background and so on. Why don't you want to take a look at those Ukrainians who were killed at Bandera's order simply because they didn't want to collaborate with his nazy-regime? Why don't you mention those Ukrainians who suffered due to Bandera's crimes, not Stalinism? Or those people automatically turn to Russians? Am I right? Sweet!
There's no difference between nowadays old-farts stalinists and you worshiping Bandera.. well there's a difference but not in your favour. The sooner you get that, the better.

Nathan:

In case of Katyn it was killing intellectual force, which could not only stand physically in defense of their country, but presented a powerful force of spirit

Nathan:

It wasn't class that Russians were killing, it was anyone who carried anything that can be collectively called a nation.

Those were two unrelated sentences. Besides the second one was quite ambiguous. :)

So you say that "The Russians (in your terminology which in the book of a non-russophobe rather means: The Ukrainians, The Russians, the Belorussians, the Jews, the Poles, the Germans, the Tatars, the Chukchas etc.) would fight you (because you're a Banderovec), Torq (because he's not a commy) and me (for the same reason). Can we "collectivelly" go as a nation? You probably don't want to be on the same boat with a Russian, do you? :)
It's a good time to admit your argumentation is feeble, Nat.

♂

Edited by: purplewolf Mar 16, 10, 16:33 #18

Sasha:

It was a class consisted of multiple nations. Not only Ukrainians, Russians or Poles or whoever.

You, Russians, are very two-faced about the question of nationality... You became world-center of neonazism, anti-zionism, neonationalism (nationalbolshevism) and a source of lots of other insane ideologies, you feel dangerously proud of your "race" which in my opinion is nothing more but an exotic mix of asian, mongolic, khazar, eastbaltic, postslavic and neodanubian genes.. You say you are "russy", "aryan", "slavic", even "nordic" (sic)..

... but when it's convenient, you describe yourself as a melting pot of nations..

You must decide who you are at last if you don't want to be perceived as a victim of mass-schizophrenia...

New Russia has a face of nazi Vlasov who was a supporter of "aryan idea" and looked like a typical example of khazar ;)

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Mar 16, 10, 17:30 #19

Sasha:

There were lots of Ukrainians among them

Yeh, right ;) And the capital was in Kiev and our flag was over Kremlin, with Ukrainian language on their mugs. What else?

Sasha:

It was a class consisted of multiple nations.

What kind of class is that?

Sasha:

Would you please give me a list of those nations.

Ukraine, Bielorus', Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Armenia,....Do I have to continue?

Sasha:

Do you usually saw the branch you're sitting on?

Do you call me a Russian? I demand an apology.

Sasha:

Why don't you mention those Ukrainians who suffered due to Bandera's crimes, not Stalinism?

Why? ;)))))))))))))))))Because there were no such. Simple as that.

Sasha:

Or those people automatically turn to Russians? Am I right? Sweet!

Who do think they were? Ukrainian who doesn't respect his language, culture or statehood is not Ukrainian. I don't care who he is, but he is not on of us.

Sasha:

Why don't you want to take a look at those Ukrainians who were killed at Bandera's order

This type of argument is obvious weakness. Usually when people have no arguments against Ukrainian resistance, they start pointing to Ukrainians who suffered from it. Additionaly mentioning names of PF members for support. Very weak, Sasha.

Sasha:

There's no difference between nowadays old-farts stalinists and you worshiping Bandera..

Well, nobody in Ukraine worships a person as it was always the case in Russia. We respect our heros and remember them. Nobody worships like you Lenin - 20th century joke.

Sasha:

There you could find a lot more resemblance starting from nazi-salute, killing and persecuting people basing on their national background and so on

Usual BS from a Russian. If you check who UPA were fighting (look at the flags if you are not interested in reading) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army
and tell me where you see a singled-out nation or country. And the most important thing for you to remember that we fought not in Russia, Romania or Germany - no - we fought on our land.

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Mar 16, 10, 19:48 #20

Nathan:

Yeh, right ;) And the capital was in Kiev and our flag was over Kremlin, with Ukrainian language on their mugs. What else?

Sounds amphibological... :)

Nathan:

What kind of class is that?

You can name it the way you want. Officially those were "capitalists", "workclass enemies" etc. Practically those were all who opposed the communistic machine.

Nathan:

.Do I have to continue?

You may or may not include there Russia in the first place, depending on your conscience. Although I don't expect that from a person who openly says "Bandera is a hero".
Yet the list you came up with is enough to see that there were no genocide... just one class of people bashed the other. End of story.

Nathan:

Why? ;)))))))))))))))))Because there were no such. Simple as that.

You can cuckoo that story until the foam at your mouth (oh, you already did? towel?) but they were "Soviets". :) I suggest that you put yourself into shoes of those Ukrainians who one day realized that they got trapped with the Soviet regime on one side and Bandera nazy regime on the other.

Nathan:

Who do think they were? Ukrainian who doesn't respect his language, culture or statehood is not Ukrainian. I don't care who he is, but he is not on of us.

Nat, then you're thankfully in a minority in Ukraine. This is not about respect to language/culture/whatever, that's about being fascist or not. Those who didn't want to kill Russians/Poles/Jews were killed.

Nathan:

This type of argument is obvious weakness. Usually when people have no arguments against Ukrainian resistance, they start pointing to Ukrainians who suffered from it.

I just put forward a fact, like it or not. It wasn't a resistance it was the birth of nazy-regime within Ukraine which was not a whit better than the Stalin one. Bandera collaborated with fascists and naively believed that fascist Germany would let him start his independent state. He was wrong. Yet many innocent people of different nationalities died for nothing cause of him... and you call streets after those who killed innocent people. Bandera is no more than inferiority complex of some (not all, not even of majority) Ukrainians. You needed a hero and you got him via historical revisionism, even though you had a chance to find real heroes. That would pay off...

Nathan:

Additionaly mentioning names of PF members for support

Who do you mean here? Torq? He has somewhat different view than me.

Nathan:

Well, nobody in Ukraine worships a person

Call it wherever you want. We don't have such hysteria around Stalin's person. Most of people understand he was evil. You seem to be the only country who in modern days on governmental level awarded the title of heroes to couple fascists. We left that behind long ago.

Nathan:

Usual BS from a Russian

Prove me wrong if you can. Every single word of me you cited were the truth. Is it a usual behaviour of a Bandera's apologist - to spit up with ad hominem attacks while driven into a corner?

Nathan:

and tell me where you see a singled-out nation or country. And the most important thing for you to remember that we fought not in Russia, Romania or Germany - no - we fought on our land.

Wrong. Banderovcy fought on Russian territory either. They fought civilians as well (or is it better to put it "for the most part").

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 16, 10, 20:01 #21

Nathan:

If you check who UPA were fighting (look at the flags if you are not interested in reading)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

There's one flag that is missing there, Nathan. I'll check again...

*checking*

...no, still can't see it. It's not there.

There should be one more flag - with silhouettes of civilians (women, children, elderly people)
on the white background - that would be the flag of the oponnent that UPA fought most
often and most ferociously. That is also the oponnent that UPA had the biggest success with
and that UPA managed to inflict the greatest losses upon.

Yeah - there's definitely that flag missing.

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Mar 16, 10, 20:59 #22

Sasha:

It wasn't a resistance it was the birth of nazy-regime within Ukraine

Thank you very much ;0 I forgot that you and Torq wanted to see diplomatic dialogue, which was conducted since 1920 and ended in nothing, simply in more distructive policies of both Russian and Polish regimes. You would have enjoyed us sitting like hares and sniff your ar*es, hm? No, you didn't get it. And now Ukrainian resistance is fascism for you. Whatever, I don't give a bit of c*ap of what you think or not.

Sasha:

to spit up with ad hominem attacks while driven into a corner?

What corner? ;)

Sasha:

You needed a hero

We need a hero? :) We have hundreds honorable people who are such. It is nothing of necessity, it is simply a fact statement.

Sasha:

Banderovcy fought on Russian territory either.

Example, please? And also note where was your army located at the moment, just in case.

Torq:

There's one flag that is missing there, Nathan. I'll check again...
*checking*
...no, still can't see it. It's not there.
There should be one more flag - with silhouettes of civilians (women, children, elderly people)

It is there, Torq! The flag of Ukrainian blood, of women, kids and elderly you spilled are all on your flag and as far as I see it is there. Even two of them.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 16, 10, 21:17 #23

Nathan:

It is there, Torq! The flag of Ukrainian blood, of women, kids and elderly you spilled are all on your flag and as far as I see it is there. Even two of them.

What I meant, Nathan, is that if you take the number of civilians that UPA murdered
and the number of soldiers of any of the armed forces that UPA fought and who were killed
in combat against Bandera's bands then you can clearly see that UPA was most efficient
against civilians and obviously it was civilians who were their main opponent (and the flag
showing those civilians is missing on the list of UPA's enemies).

Hopefully I made myself clear this time.

♂

Mar 16, 10, 21:39 #24

Torq:

Hopefully I made myself clear this time.

Give me a single source...;) Torq, you may fabulate as long as you please, but your stories of pregnant women and kids, which you always used in every battle our nations were in, is simply pathetic. Better off read the following:

Erich Koch once said: "We have to do everything possible so that a Pole, while meeting a Ukrainian, would be willing to kill him and conversely, a Ukrainian would be willing to kill a Pole"; a German commissioner from Sarny, when local Poles complained about massacres, answered: "You want Sikorski, the Ukrainians want Bandera. Fight each other"

I guess they succeded.

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Mar 16, 10, 21:43 #25

Nathan:

You would have enjoyed us sitting like hares and sniff your ar*es, hm? No, you didn't get it. And now Ukrainian resistance is fascism for you. Whatever, I don't give a bit of c*ap of what you think or not

Nat, firstly you say "you would have enjoyed..." who "you"? Torq, me? Russian or Polish people? The problem here is that you tend to associate the regime which has become a tragedy for millions with a certain nation (with the Russians first and foremost) following the false Bandera ideas. Secondly the Ukrainian "resistance" is not fascism for you or for me, it's a fascism per se. Quite doubtful alternative to communism, don't you think so? Let's recall... when they proclaimed so-called independence of Ukraine on 30th Juny 1941 in Lvov who they later (on 4th July) sent greeting? Who were those guys? Hitler, Herring, Ribbentrop, Mussolini, Franko, Pavelic. They openly pointed out their friends. :)
I would also like to dwell on the issue of your Russophobia, which is beyond my grasp. I don't understand the very nature of your dislike towards Russians, I don't understand why you tend to put upon them the burden of the guilt for the most of Ukrainian problems. I've been raised with a belief that Ukrainians are fraternal nation but you have never failed to amaze me with your wild urge of setting yourself off by all means. That's weird...

Nathan:

We need a hero? :) We have hundreds honorable people who are such.

That's what I'm telling you. Why not.... let's say Gogol? An excellent example of a hero we'got in common (you don't agree of course).

Nathan:

Example, please? And also note where was your army located at the moment, just in case

Ukrainian and Lithuanian partisans backstabbed Soviet civilians on the streets, railway stations. This is what my father who raised me with a warm feeling towards Ukrainians remember. People used for fascist-collaborators collective term "litowci", since there probably were lots of Lithuanians among them.

purplewolfThreads: 2 Posts: 63 Joined: Mar 13, 10 ♂	Mar 16, 10, 21:44 #26
Sasha, why do you ignore me?...

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Mar 16, 10, 21:45 #27

Nathan:

but your stories of pregnant women and kids

These are not my stories, but I know some of those who survived the UPA slaughters,
these are THEIR stories.

Nathan:

in every battle our nations were in

It's not about 'battles' and it's certainly not about 'our nations'. It's about civilians
being murdered by UPA bandits and you trying to glorify them and depict them as
heroes.

I have nothing against Ukraine and Ukrainians and you know it, Nat. I just don't
like to see bandits portrayed as heroes.

purplewolf:

Sasha, why do you ignore me?

Read your posts again and you will be able to answer that question yourself.

purplewolfThreads: 2 Posts: 63 Joined: Mar 13, 10 ♂	Edited by: purplewolf Mar 16, 10, 21:48 #28
Torq: Read your posts again and you will be able to answer that question yourself. I did and I still don't have a clue ;).. I think the guy uses the term "russophobia" quite too often.. I distrust people who use such terms... Russians with "russophobia", Jews with "antisemitism"...

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Edited by: Nathan Mar 16, 10, 22:04 #29

Torq:

These are not my stories, but I know some of those who survived the UPA slaughters,
these are THEIR stories.

I know many people whose relatives were murdered by Polish AK.

Torq:

I just don't
like to see bandits portrayed as heroes.

Me either, but I see AK glorified in Poland. I see their veterans in marches and you say nothing. Why? Why don't you protest in Poland? Hm?

Sasha:

they later (on 4th July) sent greeting?

;) source?

Sasha:

I would also like to dwell on the issue of your Russophobia

Dwell.

Sasha:

An excellent example of a hero we'got in common

It was a writer who was far from any nationalistic ideas and still you closed his mouth with a rag for feeling proud of Cossack past. Look at the recent movie, the whole world is laughing at. What have you done to your hero if you consider him such?

♂

Edited by: Sasha Mar 16, 10, 22:07 #30

purplewolf:

Sasha, why do you ignore me?...

Mate because you have no will whatsoever to conduct a healthy dialogue. :) If that makes you any happier then I'll tell you that I ignore Russians who treat Poles in the alike manner. Every nation has its heroes and bastards, bright side and something one would rather forget about. One always has choice either to be a friend or to be an enemy, either to create or to destroy. My attempt at lecturing you or persuade you to change your mind would be clearly all in vain, unless you decide to change something yourself. This was not me who brought you to such a state thus I can't pull you out of there. That would be just a waste of time... ;)

Nat, slaughtering Poles in Volyn has become a life-work for UPA.

UPD:

Nathan:

;) source?

Here. Excuse me... am I right that you don't like this fact?

Nathan:

It was a writer who was far from any nationalistic ideas

Exactly.

Nathan:

still you closed his mouth with a rag for feeling proud of Cossack past. Look at the recent movie, the whole world is laughing at. What have you done to your hero if you consider him such?

Oh jeez...

purplewolf:

I think the guy uses the term "russophobia" quite too often.. I distrust people who use such terms... Russians with "russophobia", Jews with "antisemitism"...

If you have any other word to explain Nat's attitude towards us, you may stick with it. I don't like the term either.

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