Russians again meddling in Polish affairs

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 7, 10, 23:33 #61
The Russians have put their hands up recently, plk123. Also, genocide has a different character than murder. It was mass murder rather than genocide. Politicide maybe. What is Russia doing now?

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Apr 7, 10, 23:33 #62

plk123:

because you''re a fvcking russain and will never get it.. it was murder no matter how you slice it.. and you mother fvckers need to own up to it. hell, if the germans can own up to what they did, why can't the russians?

No one is saying it wasn't murder. Mass murder. Evil communist class cleansing mass murder.

There was however a reason that they didn't kill the enlisted and the working class...

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Apr 7, 10, 23:56 #63

plk123:

because you''re a fvcking russain and will never get it

I wasn't asking anything, I just said what I thought. I will never get what?
Don't you agree with me that it wasn't a genocide? Secondly, yes I think it was a mass murder. And I've got a counterquestion:

plk123:

and you mother fvckers need to own up to it

Who we? The people? Would you feel better if Kostia and I "own up" to it? I don't even believe in that if our government own up to it that would make you get rid of the word "fvcking" in front of everything Russian in your lexicon.

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Edited by: plk123 Apr 7, 10, 23:58 #64

Seanus:

It was mass murder rather than genocide.

what are you talking about?? genocide it was.. nothing less

gen·o·cide

/ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/ Show Spelled[jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Genocide

Sasha:

I don't even believe in that if our government own up to it that would make you get rid of the word "fvcking" in front of everything Russian in your lexicon.

it would help, that is for sure.. because right now what you say si in full support of the ignorant bastard putin. which is completely unacceptable to me and most of poles who had to live through russian occupation.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 00:03 #65
Which national, racial, political, or cultural group did they exterminate?

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 00:04 #66
national and cultural = poles.. wtf???

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Apr 8, 10, 00:08 #67

convex:

Which national, racial, political, or cultural group did they exterminate?

The Rwandan Genocide did not "exterminate" every Tutsi there was. Can we quewtion whether that was genocide? I think the point being, the systematic execution of the intelligentsia and leadership can be considered genocide. If it were only a few hundred, maybe a massacre, but when it gets into the tens of thousands, it is likely attempted genocide. IMO.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 00:43 #68
ShawnH: The Rwandan Genocide did not "exterminate" every Tutsi there was. Well, nor was every Jew exterminated by the Nazis...they are flourishing well again actually. Maybe "having exterminated" in the sense as it is originally meant isn't usable here and elsewhere?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 01:05 #69
Well...it seems they are clearing the air now: http://www.thenews.pl/international/artykul128914_poland-and-russia-re member-katyn-massacre.html

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Apr 8, 10, 01:33 #70

plk123:

national and cultural = poles.. wtf???

So the Soviets were trying to kill all Poles? Why did they only kill officers? No farmers, or enlisted men, or factory workers. Sounds like they were targeting a class.

ShawnH:

The Rwandan Genocide did not "exterminate" every Tutsi there was. Can we quewtion whether that was genocide? I think the point being, the systematic execution of the intelligentsia and leadership can be considered genocide. If it were only a few hundred, maybe a massacre, but when it gets into the tens of thousands, it is likely attempted genocide. IMO.

Genocide has nothing to do with the numbers, it has everything to do with who was targeted. Tutsis were being targeted because they were of a certain ethnic group, thus, genocide. The Poles at Katyn were being targeted because they were a certain class of people within a broader ethnic group, not genocide. Bosniaks were targeted at Srebrinica because they were Bosniaks, genocide. Czech villages were annihilated because of an assassination, not genocide.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 01:40 #71
combine that with wolyn and the deportations to the siberia and it smells like genocide.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 01:54 #72
plk123: combine that with wolyn and the deportations to the siberia and it smells like genocide. Deportation isn't extermination. It's mass murder. It's a war crime. It's not genocide. If genocide was the objective, the Soviets would have exterminated all Poles instead of drafting them to fight in the red army.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 02:21 #73
ok have it your way... love fest it was..

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Apr 8, 10, 02:38 #74

plk123:

because right now what you say si in full support of the ignorant bastard putin

I don't think that putin (who's bastard but not the ingnorant one) thinks that far as to differ genocide and murders, nor I remeber him ever saying those were murders. If we follow your logic about genocide then we may end up saying it was commited over all national groups in the SU and first and foremost against Russians. But murder is a murder. This is what important to admit. I'm not a Russian in the first place, but a human and sympathize with Polish people about those mostly innocent victims not because they are Polish, but because they are people... Isn't it the top form of what you can get from me or, if you want, from Russians?
As for the official avowal... I agree that it's necessary but it takes time. Be patient. The current government is not ready yet.

convex:

If genocide was the objective, the Soviets would have exterminated all Poles instead of drafting them to fight in the red army.

Ditto!

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 03:58 #75
Sasha: mostly innocent victims this suggests they deserved it because they were guilty to some degree.. same ol sh.t whether you are russian or not.. very insulting, imho.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 11:13 #76
Sasha: Ditto! Russian government should stop looking for a people in Poland they can do business with on they terms, and going to such extremis as to attempt to create such people! Poland's interest should be taken into acccount also - its seems that Russian government seems to be unable to grasp it. At lasts since Alexander!

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 11:39 #77
Ironside: Russian government should stop looking for a people in Poland they can do business with Yea, because trade only leads to warfare and strained relations!

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂	Apr 8, 10, 11:46 #78
convex: Yea, because trade only leads to warfare and strained relations! Well, THEY know what I mean !

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Edited by: jwojcie Apr 8, 10, 13:17 #79

convex:

Deportation isn't extermination. It's mass murder. It's a war crime. It's not genocide. If genocide was the objective, the Soviets would have exterminated all Poles instead of drafting them to fight in the red army.

@convex, it depends where you are deported, if into gulags or Siberia just before winter then intentions are rather clear... But let see all of this in a broader light...

First, we should all acknowledge that this argument is about international law term, not about Ten Commandments. In that light Genocide is not we feel it is but what is written in some law book. Secondly, interpretation of this law still varies as with every law. Now, the current international definition is as follows:
" ...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

– Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II
"

So, in light of that definition in my opinion Katyn masacre falls under article II a) paragraph. Maybe for someone as alone incident it wouldn't be sufficient, but what is not recognized yet on this forum by all is the fact, that Katyń was only part of the broader SU policy against Poland and Poles between 17.09.1939 and German invasion on SU. During that time:
- hundreds of thousands of Poles were deported from prewar east Poland to Siberia, many died during the process
- simple soldiers weren't killed at Katyń, but in huge part were sent to Gulags, many of them died there
In that light, Katyń is tragic and symbolic incident in a broader policy aimed at ethnic purge of prewar east Poland, and as such definitely it would exhaust all five points of article II.

To sum things up, Katyń cann't be viewed as an single event. I suppose it would be easier to end this dispute if the term of "class genocide" would exist in international law.

PS. lets not kid ourself, Rusian reluctance to admit in International Court that it was genocide or even war crime is not about principles and definitions, it is about simple fact that Russian Federation is legal heir of Soviet Union, which means at least two things:
- they are famous for Sputnik, and can be proud of it, but in the same time
- if they admit that Katyn was a Genocide, then they will have to pay compensation. The compensation for Poles is small issue, but imagine what would happen if Russians would start sue Russian state for SU crimes? Those are milions of victims...

So Russia will kick the can till most of the potential heirs of the victims will die, to much is at stake.

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Apr 15, 10, 16:19 #80

convex:

There was however a reason that they didn't kill the enlisted and the working class...

Say what, ya they decided to let them Slave to death in Siberia. I have tried to remain objective but this is all such BS.

Katyn files need to opened to the public. Russia will say it was not us it was the Soviets. Then why not release the files. No one can take Russia at its word and this is a huge part of why they are not in WTO. Katyn will not just vanish into thin air. If Russia is truly sorry then read the Presidents last speech and complete what is asked. Polish throughout the nation are demanding this be done and the longer Russia stalls the worse they look. I for one shall continue to demand the release of files and pray that the Polish unite in the name of the brave that perished en route.

As far as killing and deporting threats to Soviets communist ways, please. New born babies to the elderly were not spared. In a nut shell Soviets wanted Poland all to themselves, no longer happy with splitting her with Nazi.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Apr 15, 10, 21:43 #81
Wasn't that 70 years ago? ;) Are meddling is present continuous/progressive, not past simple.

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Apr 15, 10, 21:52 #82

You can talk about someone being anti-Russian after Russians clean up their act. As long as the Soviet swastika, the notorious hammer and sickle, is publicly displayed anywhere in the Russian Federation, there can be no true dialogue and reconciliation. Stalin was worse than Hitler, not only because he left behind a greater total body count of innocent victims, but because his most numerous victims were Russians themselves. Poland bans the use of both the swastuika and hammer and sickle as symbols of two evil systems. When will Russia wake up and do the same?!"

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Apr 15, 10, 22:12 #83

Polonius3:

When will Russia wake up and do the same?!"

(1)You missed something important - Russia waked up 20 years ago. As a result you joined NATO and EU. I also wish you to wake up, forget nightmares and just enjoy with your new life. :)

(2) I have no clear answer why but we Russians don't see hammer and sickle equial to the swastika. Because it was on the victory flag? May be we just don't care? It lost symbolic importance (union of workers and farmers) and will be forgotten with time.

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