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Russians change Smolensk plaque


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Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 11, 15:06    #1
Under the cover of night (skąd my to znamy?!) the Russians replaced the Polish plaque commemorating victims of last year's Smolensk air crash. The new plque conveniently omitted: Katyn, NKVD, genocide, Polish POWs. This typical Soviet-style move has provoked understandable outrage in Poland.
http://www.dziennikpolski24.pl/pl/aktualnosci/na-biezaco/1134386-zmian a-tablic-na-kamieniu-upamietniajacym-miejsce-katastrofy-smolenskiej.ht ml
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 11, 15:20    #2
Polonius3:
This typical Soviet-style move has provoked understandable outrage in Poland.


Of course, the original plaque was placed there without consent of the Russians in the first place - but you didn't mention that, did you?
skubusThreads: 6
Posts: 27
Joined: Jun 28, 10 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 11, 15:20    #3
As an Irishman i feel very sorry and sad that such a thing was done, especially under the cover of darkness. Shame on the Russian authorities who organised this despicable act!!
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: delphiandomine  Apr 9, 11, 15:26    #4
skubus:
Shame on the Russian authorities who organised this despicable act!!


How would you feel if the Brits placed a plaque on Irish territory talking about the acts of terrorism committed during wartime by the Irish people without asking you for your permission first?

You'd be pretty upset, wouldn't you?

Now put yourself in their shoes.

While it's a dreadfully insensitive thing to do at this time, I can understand why - Russia has real problems coming to terms with her past, and putting up plaques like this without permission is going to provoke a reaction.
WroclawThreads: 77
Posts: 7,404
Joined: Apr 1, 06  Pictures: 3 ♂ [Moderator] 		 Apr 9, 11, 15:42    #5
Polonius3:
Under the cover of night (skąd my to znamy?!) the Russians replaced the Polish plaque commemorating victims of last year's Smolensk air crash


it's a news story on tvpinfo, but talking to people it's a non-issue.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 11, 16:21    #6
It's all part of these warming up of relations between Poland and Russsia.

The MSZ has requested the stolen at night plaque be retured to the Polish consulate. It is an issue despite what Wroclaw's "Polish contacts" say.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 11, 16:25    #7
1jola:
It's all part of these warming up of relations between Poland and Russsia.

You mean where Russia spits Poland in the face and Poland bends over and takes it?
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 11, 16:25    #8
1jola:
It is an issue despite what Wroclaw's "Polish contacts" say.


Indeed - most people would be rather upset if a plaque was placed on their territory, without permission, mentioning that the people of that country were murderers.

I assume you would be rather upset if a plaque appeared commemorating the Russian prisoners of war that died in Polish hands, mentioning the camp guards as "murderers", wouldn't you?
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 11, 16:26    #9
delphiandomine:
Indeed - most people would be rather upset if a plaque was placed on their territory, without permission, mentioning that the people of that country were murderers.

That plaque was placed there with the consent of russian authorities, please stop lying.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 11, 16:32    #10
Sokrates:
That plaque was placed there with the consent of russian authorities, please stop lying.


Wasn't.

http://www.tokfm.pl/Tokfm/1,103085,9404698,MSZ_chce_wyjasnien_od_Rosja n_ws__zamiany_tablicy_w.html

Now - how about we put up an unauthorised plaque, only in Russian, dedicated to those killed in Polish POW camps? We could also put up a plaque dedicated to those murdered by Poles in L'viv - and what about some plaques dedicated to those Jews murdered by Poles?

You'd absolutely hate it and demand the removal immediately. And for that reason, can't you understand the Russian mentality?
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 11, 16:51    #11
Sokrates:
You mean where Russia spits Poland in the face and Poland bends over and takes it?

Yes, that is how Merkel and Putin have decided.

The plaque was placed there six months ago with the presence of journalists and the abassador of RP. Ruscy wait till the families arrive, swap the plaques at night, and consider that part of the healing process. The issue is that it mentioned the reason the people who had died were there - to comemorate the genocide of Poles by the Soviets in 1940. To people objecting the word genocide in this case, I refer you to the Nuremberg Trials and that is exactly what the Russian procecutor had called the Katyń crime when he accused the Germans of it.
NrthPznnDvsnThreads: 1
Posts: 35
Joined: Apr 8, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: NrthPznnDvsn  Apr 9, 11, 17:08    #12
Sokrates:
You mean where Russia spits Poland in the face and Poland bends over and takes it?

I do this to my girlfriend she says she likes it .. we do other stuff to :)

Anyway I think its kind of a Kremls political game again... we simple people shouldnt care about it.
polishmeknobThreads: 12
Posts: 162
Joined: Feb 9, 09 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 11, 17:39    #13
What a bunch of dicks.
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,834
Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 9, 11, 17:46    #14
There already are plaques to Jews murdered by Poles in Jedwabne and Kielce, but none to POLES MURDERED BY JEWS at Koniuchy, Naliboki and the torture chambers and dungeons of ther Jew-controlled UB at Rakowiecka street.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 9, 11, 18:17    #15
Polonius3:
There already are plaques to Jews murdered by Poles in Jedwabne and Kielce, but none to POLES MURDERED BY JEWS at Koniuchy, Naliboki and the torture chambers and dungeons of ther Jew-controlled UB at Rakowiecka street.

Where are the ones to the Ukrainians who died in prisoner of war camps after their Polish allies had sold them and their country to the USSR?
ShortHairThugThreads: -
Posts: 1,377
Joined: May 1, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Moderator  Apr 9, 11, 18:49    #16
Harry:
Where are the ones to the Ukrainians who died in prisoner of war camps after their Polish allies had sold them and their country to the USSR?

You do mean Brits and Yanks who sold half of Europe including Poland to USSR. Cowards.
Then tell us horror stories how they were thought to duck under their desks when they were in school during the cold war era, teaching their youngsters the proper way to coward in the process. LOL Imagine, the Horror of those days.

Edit: But their crime was just a signature on a paper, new understanding between friends so to speak and a new world order to go with it. Jews did the deeds they murdered, they confiscated properties, they did the ethnic cleansing transporting entire populations of the regions to Siberia, Kazakhstan etc. all in the name of ideology still do, look at poor Palestinians.

Everyone, please stay on topic
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,398
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: pawian  Apr 10, 11, 00:12    #17
Funny. Russians resorting to such clandestine swapping of plaques don`t seem too serious. Actually, they seem ridiculous.

But it is their land and their rock so they have the right to do what they want.

ORIGINAL:
In the Memory of 96 Poles led by President Lech Kaczynski, who died in a plane crash near Smolensk on the way to the ceremony
commemorating the 70th anniversary of Soviet genocide in the Katyn forest performed on prisoners of war and the officers of the Polish Army in 1940
(Katyn Families Association)

Actual substitute.
In the Memory of 96 Poles led by the President Lech Kaczynski
who died in a plane crash near Smolensk 10 April 2010
http://www.thenews.pl/international/?id=153010

f

d


delphiandomine:
Now - how about we put up an unauthorised plaque, only in Russian, dedicated to those killed in Polish POW camps? We could also put up a plaque dedicated to those murdered by Poles in L'viv - and what about some plaques dedicated to those Jews murdered by Poles?

You'd absolutely hate it and demand the removal immediately. And for that reason, can't you understand the Russian mentality?


The current Russian mentality is that they still praise Soviet Stalinist communism which annihilated so many Russians. It is really sad. I will never understand it how one can support the murderers of your kin.
czarThreads: 4
Posts: 248
Joined: Mar 3, 10 ♂ 		 Apr 11, 11, 21:52    #18
and they removed the cross
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 11, 11, 22:09    #19
pawian:
The current Russian mentality is that they still praise Soviet Stalinist communism which annihilated so many Russians. It is really sad. I will never understand it how one can support the murderers of your kin.


Indeed, I'm not surprised in the slightest that they like Putin - they're used to a strong hand controlling them, it's what they like.

I think this is actually what causes a lot of misunderstanding.
Wiedzmin_fanThreads: 2
Posts: 133
Joined: May 31, 10 ♂ 		 Apr 11, 11, 23:47    #20
czar:
and they removed the cross


that was a conspicuously catholic cross - wrong (well, for an orthodox person anyway) shape. kind of jarring. foreign language, foreign cross - I can see why they took it off. sorry :(

delphiandomine:
I'm not surprised in the slightest that they like Putin


It's a different type of mentality. Like a pack of dogs, following their alfa :(
Those who don't like it, live outside of Russia.
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,305
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 12, 11, 00:19    #21
delphiandomine:
I assume you would be rather upset if a plaque appeared commemorating the Russian prisoners of war that died in Polish hands, mentioning the camp guards as "murderers", wouldn't you?


Where did Poles do that to the Russians?

There you go again about the Russians. lol

delphiandomine:
Now - how about we put up an unauthorised plaque, only in Russian, dedicated to those killed in Polish POW camps?



Where are these Polish POW camps for Russians? Do you think the Russians today deny that Russians killed Poles at Katyn and other places?

delphiandomine:

You'd absolutely hate it and demand the removal immediately. And for that reason, can't you understand the Russian mentality?


Yes you know that Russian mentality very well. Don’t you?? LOL

Why would the Russians deny a plaque that reflects the fact that Russians at Katyn and other places killed Poles? Isn’t that accurate? Do you Russians deny this?

delphiandomine:
Indeed, I'm not surprised in the slightest that they like Putin - they're used to a strong hand controlling them, it's what they like.


That’s right. Your Russian people do have the mentality of “I hear and I obey” for some reason. Like a bunch of sheep.

Why do you always have Russia on the mind?

Ever since Polish people had tough questions about the Russian Smolensk Investigation, you have been trolling hard against Polish people on these forums.
Wiedzmin_fanThreads: 2
Posts: 133
Joined: May 31, 10 ♂ 		 Apr 12, 11, 00:25    #22
MediaWatch:
Where did Poles do that to the Russians?


If I remember my history lessons correctly, in Tuchola?

MediaWatch:
There you go again about the Russians.



No offense, but this actually applies to you! I think you are obsessed about the Russians. LOL indeed :)
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Apr 12, 11, 00:26    #23
MediaWatch:
There you go again about the Russians. lol



Thats what the thread is about you dipstick...!
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 12, 11, 00:47    #24
MediaWatch:
Where did Poles do that to the Russians?


Uh...I suggest you start with a basic guide to Poland, 1918-1923.

I don't particularly agree that the two crimes are comparable, but in the eyes of many Russians - they are. Who are you to judge their feelings?

MediaWatch:
Where are these Polish POW camps for Russians? Do you think the Russians today deny that Russians killed Poles at Katyn and other places?


Where are they? You could start with Тuchola.

Incidentally, yes, some Russians do deny it. It's exactly the same as some Poles deny things such as the Lwow and Kielce pogroms. Both are idiotic and small minded - but they do exist.

MediaWatch:
Why would the Russians deny a plaque that reflects the fact that Russians at Katyn and other places killed Poles? Isn’t that accurate? Do you Russians deny this?


Why would Poles get upset with a plaque in Kielce saying that genocide was committed against Jews there? I wonder...
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 12, 11, 01:03    #25
delphiandomine:
Why would Poles get upset with a plaque in Kielce saying that genocide was committed against Jews there? I wonder...


Actually - this is what the whole issue seems to be about. It was politically unacceptable for Medvedev to be laying flowers at a plaque that said "genocide" - so it was changed. Nothing sinister, just internal Russian politics at play - just like changing the plaque in Kielce to say "genocide by Polish rioters" would also be seen as completely unacceptable.
PolishDoomarse  Apr 12, 11, 01:12    #26
delphiandomine:
Why would Poles get upset with a plaque in Kielce saying that genocide was committed against Jews there? I wonder...


Poles take pride in getting rid of the Jewish scourge. The Kielce pogrom was small in size, set during a time of tension against Jews, and regular people participated in it. The Katyn massacre involved much more people and was the order of Russian officials.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Apr 12, 11, 01:15    #27
PolishDoomarse:
Poles take pride in getting rid of the Jewish scourge.


Maybe you racist Polish Americans do, but ordinary Poles feel nothing but shame in what was done by Polish hands to Jews.

PolishDoomarse:
The Kielce pogrom was small in size, set during a time of tension against Jews, and regular people participated in it.


Even worse. I can understand military orders being followed blindly - I cannot understand civilians choosing to do such a thing.

PolishDoomarse:
The Katyn massacre involved much more people and was the order of Russian officials.


Both were and are completely unacceptable.
MediaWatchThreads: 31
Posts: 1,305
Joined: Aug 30, 08 ♂ 		 Apr 12, 11, 01:18    #28
delphiandomine:
Uh...I suggest you start with a basic guide to Poland, 1918-1923.
I don't particularly agree that the two crimes are comparable, but in the eyes of many Russians - they are. Who are you to judge their feelings?


You’re going to give moral equivalency to what supposedly happened at Tuchola to Katyn? At Tuchola the Poles were handling the aggressive Russians who invaded their country. So you expect the Poles to be kind to the Russians who invaded their country? After suppressing them for 123 years?? Are you crazy??

At Katyn the Russians were killing their Polish allies.

And how do you know so much about the feelings of Russians? Once again whenever it comes to an issue between Russia and Poland, your first sympathies are always with the Russians. GEE I WONDER WHY???LOL


[
delphiandomine:
Why would Poles get upset with a plaque in Kielce saying that genocide was committed against Jews there? I wonder...


Well actually it was Polish citizens who were controlled and aided by Soviet Russians to kill other Polish citizens. So why should there be a plaque talking about Polish against Jewish people when it was much more complicated then that??

If you care so much about Jews, then maybe Russia should put a plaque where ever Jewish graves are, that states Russia apologizes for starting WWII with Nazi Germany that led to the killing of millions of Jews.
PolishDoomarse  Apr 12, 11, 01:23    #29
delphiandomine:
Maybe you racist Polish Americans do, but ordinary Poles feel nothing but shame in what was done by Polish hands to Jews

You're dumb. You consider everyone who doesn't fit your description of a Pole to be non-Polish. Polish people don't give a damn about Jews anymore. They all left and for the better. The only people that care now are the spoiled children of Holocaust survivors who want to make regular Polish people pay for something they didn't do.
delphiandomine:
Both were and are completely unacceptable.

Kielce involved personal reasons whereas Katyn was caused by political reasons. They was high tension in the community. WW2 had just ended and people felt that the Jews were to be blamed. Then some guy's son get abducted and a Jew is suspected of the crime. The people rioted against the Jews in that area, not againt all the Jews.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: delphiandomine  Apr 12, 11, 01:30    #30
MediaWatch:
You’re going to give moral equivalency to what supposedly happened at Tuchola to Katyn? At Tuchola the Poles were handling the aggressive Russians who invaded their country. So you expect the Poles to be kind to the Russians who invaded their country? After suppressing them for 123 years?? Are you crazy??


I would expect POW's to be treated humanely.

Are you really so bitter and twisted that you think it's perfectly acceptable to keep people in similar conditions to Tuchola?

Incidentally, using "supposedly happened" is exactly the kind of language I've come to expect from you - only racist idiots use such terminology.

MediaWatch:
At Katyn the Russians were killing their Polish allies.


Allies?

Let's see. Nazi Germany broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact at 03:15 on 22 June 1941. Katyn happened May-June 1940.

Jeez, MediaWatch - get your facts right!

MediaWatch:
Well actually it was Polish citizens who were controlled and aided by Soviet Russians to kill other Polish citizens. So why should there be a plaque talking about Polish against Jewish people when it was much more complicated then that??


Explain the Lwów situation, then? No Soviets to blame there.

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