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Should countries be boycotted for offending Poles?

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posts: 57

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Feb 18, 12, 23:02 #31

if Poles could get the country up to standards on their own it would have been done a long time ago. The fact is Poland needs help- for roads and infrastructure, for businesses and for other things. It is not an easy task converting from a communist mentality to one of the western world. Poles are upsetting the Dutch- big deal. Calling for a boycott- that is ridiculous. Perhaps if those who immigrated to other countries actually assimilated instead of moving into a Polish ghetto than there wouldn't be so much hatred.

ladykangarooThreads: - Posts: 187 Joined: Jan 2, 09 ♀	Edited by: Moderator Feb 18, 12, 23:25 #32
pip: Calling for a boycott- that is ridiculous Well, I certainly intend to boycott the Dutch website. I also boycott the ideas of "Polish MEP Jacek Saryusz-Wolski". Most likely I will also boycott RevokeNice soon enough. Ah, the little pleasures in life. Yesterday I had no idea I can boycott so many things :D

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,767 Joined: Jun 20, 09 ♂	Edited by: RevokeNice Feb 18, 12, 23:28 #33
ladykangaroo: Most likely I will also boycott RevokeNice soon enough. Boycott my city. Great idea for a website, may set one up meself. Patriot Dubs can report on hiring practices of local business. No locals, no business!

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Edited by: Ironside Feb 18, 12, 23:34 #34

pip:

The fact is Poland needs help- for roads and infrastructure, for businesses and for other things. It is not an easy task converting from a communist mentality to one of the western world.

That nonsense. The only thing that impairs Poles is the fact that in charge are ex-commies and opportunist left-overs from PRL times.
That communist mentality is bull.
And the western world is bull as well.

pip:

Calling for a boycott- that is ridiculous.

I agree

pip:

Perhaps if those who immigrated to other countries actually assimilated instead of moving into a Polish ghetto than there wouldn't be so much hatred.

That another nonsense, they do not emigrated they migrated. You cannot expect a cheap workforce to fully assimilate,its the EU not bloody Canada. Anyway it takes many years to do assimilate if that possible at all for a fist generation.
You cannot escape hate - most people are bad some are good.

RevokeNice:

No locals, no business!

Actually Dublin was founded by the invaders.

grubasThreads: 20 Posts: 1,452 Joined: Feb 1, 10 ♂	Edited by: grubas Feb 18, 12, 23:55 #35
Ironside: That nonsense. The only thing that impairs Poles is the fact that in charge are ex-commies and opportunist left-overs from PRL times. That communist mentality is bull. And the western world is bull as well. You got it right brother.Now,are we going to do anything about it?The anger is growing and soon people will be ready.

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Feb 18, 12, 23:57 #36

Ironside:

That communist mentality is bull.

no it isn't. There is a generation of Poles that still think like former communists- I don't mean the average worker- I mean those who came out shining during communism---those in the high ranks- those that still expect a little kick back under the table. At this moment these very people are leading companies and corporations that are involved in the updating of Poland. totally ironic.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,398 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Feb 19, 12, 00:01 #37
Why am I against? If Poles boycott the Dutch merchandise, who will suffer most? The Dutch government? No, labourers on Dutch farms and greenhouses wii pay for it. They will be laid off, many of them Poles. Do we really want that?

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Edited by: grubas Feb 19, 12, 00:08 #38

pawian:

If Poles boycott the Dutch merchandise, who will suffer most? The Dutch government?
No, labourers on Dutch farms and greenhouses wii pay for it. They will be laid off, many of them Poles.

Do we really want that?

And you teach Polish children?For fuck's sake,ask yourself a question "How is that possible that Poles are semi slaves in Holland instead of working OUR POLISH soil,doing exactly the same thing but getting ALL the profits"?Maybe not conciously (I am trying to excuse you now) but you are part of the problem we have here in Poland.

pip:

You are happy with the American version of no taxes.

Yeah,I would like to transplant SOME of the American solutions/ideas to Poland.

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Feb 19, 12, 01:03 #39

pip:

There is a generation of Poles that still think like former communists-

Its not about generation its about traitors and their post-colonial mentality. They are rising their successors with the same mentality.

pip:

At this moment these very people are leading companies and corporations that are involved in the updating of Poland. totally ironic.

Those people are leading the country - astray !

RevokeNice:

Rubbish, eh?

OK elf, you are the Neanderthal progeny - congratulation on surviving.

noreenbThreads: 4 Posts: 1,082 Joined: Apr 22, 09 ♀	Feb 19, 12, 13:46 #40
Yes, they should, In a gentle way at the beginning, of course.

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Edited by: Foreigner4 Feb 19, 12, 13:54 #41

grubas:

And who do you think is to blame for this?
Are you aware that many Polish employers pay their employees so little that the employees prefer the crappy conditions in Holland to the craptacular wages and treatment they receive in Poland from their Polish employers?
Dishonesty isn't restricted to nationality and it is puzzling to me that you wouldn't have taken this into consideration.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 19, 12, 13:58 #42
Foreigner4: and treatment This is often the important part - not the salary, but rather the workplace itself.

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Edited by: Moderator Feb 19, 12, 17:19 #43

Wroclaw:

back to topic please.

Can we discuss the mirror image of the topic, i.e. that some Poles are up in arms about some Dutch people suggesting the law should be changed so that Poles who can not support themselves should be deported from the Netherlands, but they ignore the fact that Polish law already says that Dutch people who can not support themselves can be deported from the Netherlands?

ok

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 19, 12, 17:32 #44
How would Polish people feel about Polish products and services being boycotted because Polish law already says that Dutch people who can not support themselves can be deported from the Netherlands but some Poles think it is disgraceful that the same should apply to Poles in the Netherlands?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,727 Joined: Mar 10, 08 ♂	Edited by: SeanBM Feb 20, 12, 11:33 #45
Harry: who can not support themselves can be deported Does this actually happen or is it just one of those laws that exist but never (or rarely) get put in to practice? It sounds silly anyway, being an E.U. citezen, any Dutch person deported by the Polish authorities has the right to just return to Poland and visa versa.

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Feb 20, 12, 12:43 #46

SeanBM:

Does this actually happen or is it just one of those laws that exist but never (or rarely) get put in to practice?

It sounds silly anyway, being an E.U. citezen, any Dutch person deported by the Polish authorities has the right to just return to Poland and visa versa.

Most of the times it's being used to deport Bulgarian and Romanian beggers/criminals, at least up here. And yes, the laws apply for the whole EU. Unless you have a well filled bank account or a job (or study), you are not allowed to stay longer than three months. This applies for all nationalities and all countries. Of course a country can still grant you the right to stay, even if before mentioned criterias are not fullfilled. But that's entirely up to the country in question to decide by it's own.

That the British isles obviously have generous benefits seems a bit strange to me. What are the criterias for receiving them? There's no way in hell an EU-citizen would be granted any social benefits here (and we are the motherland of social benefits).

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Feb 20, 12, 23:00 #47

Social Welfare is too generous here (Ireland), but that goes for everyone, not just Poles or other EU nationals who come here.

The recession is really beginning to bite here and alot of people look for someone to lash out at-sadly immigrants fit the bill nicely for some and are an easy target. 'Coming over here, stealing our jobs, taking our welfare etc etc'.

It's the same across Europe. There's no denying some Polish have taken advantage and rip off the system, and seem to feel no shame in doing so but they're the smaller element of a much wider problem that affects everyone here, Irish and Pole alike. But when emotions run this high, logic tends to go out the window. It hasn't helped when it's been publicized how much money has been taken from the Irish economy by Polish and sent back to families etc in Poland, hundreds of million of euro in the last decade. At face value I can understand why people get upset at that ....but considering our history of immigration over the past hundred years, and the fact the Irish did the exact same thing when huge numbers of us emigrated to the US, Canada, Australia, Britain etc I really can't see how we can complain too much about it.

The worrying thing is that with the economies etc in Europe sliding, people become more narrow minded and extreme in their views - resulting in that Dutch site. Stupidty as they say, knows no nationality.

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Edited by: KingAthelstan Feb 21, 12, 00:10 #48

Geert Wilders is a Dutch Patriot, the situation is worse in the UK.

My 17 year old son who has just qualified as a bricklayer can't find a job due to Polish immigration. How is he supposed to compete with a 24 year old who comes here for a couple years and does it for half the price from gdansk?

How would you feel if Poland gave Russia and the Ukraine the same working rights Poles enjoy in the west?

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Feb 21, 12, 00:25 #49

Considering Englands tendency to go around invading countries where they weren't wanted, I'm constantly surprised by their unhappiness at people from these self same countries coming to England...or complain about immigration ruining their culture and diluting their Englishness (all the while planning to become ex-pats in Costa del Sol)

OK that's somewhat tongue in cheek, and not applicable to Poland but it's an attitude that's always puzzled me.

There's a few alternative ways of looking at it though Athelstan

a) those Poles need to live somewhere , buy food, pay tax, socialize etc, all contributing to the economy.
b) English (and us Irish) are quite insular, we don't take advantage of the opportunities provided in other countries. Oth nations do it, so what's stopping us? Fear of change? Fear of failure?
c) Wilders and his ilk are idiots.

To put this Wilders stance into context, quantified research from the University of Rotterdamn have found his claims that mass immigration from Eastern Europe has hit the economy to be completely false. Business leaders in Holland have also expressed concerns that his attitude and the publicity around this site will actually cost the country jobs as multinational companies reconsider their position. It's also worth noting that several southern states in the US have implemeted the type of draconian anti immigrant laws Wilder believes in....and it's devastated the economy, costing billions of dollars and leading to all sectors of business pushing for a repeal of these laws. Wilders and his friends in the BNP are using scare mongering to try and whip up a frenzied support for their viewpoint and to win votes. It's appalling.

I feel or your son - members of my family have lost their jobs with the recession here and are in danger of losing their house as a result. That's due more to the stupidity and short sighted nature of our government when it came to prudent financial controls than immigration. Likewise in the UK.

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Feb 21, 12, 00:27 #50

KingAthelstan:

My 17 year old son who has just qualified as a bricklayer can't find a job due to Polish immigration. How is he supposed to compete with a 24 year old who comes here for a couple years and does it for half the price from gdansk?

He only lasted one year of education after GCSEs? If you can call bricklaying an education. He's a mimimum wage lackey anyway. There are always jobs in Sainsbury's and Tesco's. I feel pity for him though, not even having a clue that since the recession there isn't many buildings going up or properties being bought.

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Feb 21, 12, 03:39 #51

I noticed that dutch businesses are quite "discriminatory" in hiring employees. I saw that all the employees of a shop, doing jobs that require less physical work are dutch, even for low paying jobs such as check out chick at supermarket, shelf stacking etc, while Polish employees are made to do physical hard labour like shifting pellets, working in hazardous or harsh condition like freezer room, manual labour such as cleaning, picking vegies, flowers and fruits. Besides, they are not direct employees but agency worker, meaning employers have no responsibility to these poles whatsoever, they can be hired and fired at will, made to work a few hours a week. This is more or less the same as the working conditions of backpackers on working holiday visa in Australia picking fruits. Thats European Disunion for you.

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Feb 21, 12, 09:51 #52

thebadmonkey:

Considering Englands tendency to go around invading countries where they weren't wanted, I'm constantly surprised by their unhappiness at people from these self same countries coming to England...

Yeah it's really been the rank and file Englander that went about making these decisions and setting up shop all over the globe.

thebadmonkey:

OK that's somewhat tongue in cheek, and not applicable to Poland but it's an attitude that's always puzzled me.

Be puzzled no more: You cannot logically hold children responsible for the crimes of their parents. I.E. You cannot logically hold descendants accountable for the crimes of their ancestral countrymen and women.

If a bunch of Chinese workers were to come into Poland, the Poles here would have every right to complain- they're here in Poland, where they're supposed to be following your logic.

thebadmonkey:

To put this Wilders stance into context, quantified research from the University of Rotterdamn have found his claims that mass immigration from Eastern Europe has hit the economy to be completely false.

We should question how the term "economy" is being used. It's perfectly plausible that the "economy" of a country can increase while the standard of living can decrease for the majority of people. All you need is greater net gains in the hands of a few to offset large net losses spread out over the majority. I don't know how the data was gathered but misrepresenting/misinterpreting economic data is nothing new.

thebadmonkey:

Business leaders in Holland have also expressed concerns...

And wouldn't ya know it, it's the richest who stand to lose if he's right...or so it seems...

StuThreads: 27 Posts: 1,109 Joined: Mar 31, 10 ♂	Feb 21, 12, 09:59 #53
AussieSheila: Thats European Disunion for you You know what the reason is? They don't know the language. What do you want ... ?

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Feb 21, 12, 13:17 #54

Foreigner4 - valid points.

Just taking a few of them - Sins of our fathers is offset somewhat by the the fact that it's those who complain the most about how England is becoming less English, and that the foreigners are taking all the jobs who are the very same who display such pride in the 'Empire' and moan about how England is no longer the power it was etc etc.

It's a minority to be sure, but sadly quite visible abroad any time I've been holidays. The rhetoric from the likes of Wilders and the BNP doesn'r really help anyone aside from stirring up xenophobia by playign on peoples perceptions and fears as opposed to facts. It is gratifying to see though that the majority seem to reject such extremism but not in as large numbers as they once did perhaps.

Regarding Dutch Business concerns, I can understand why it can be said they are looking after their own interests. After all they are in business to make a profit, not for the public good. If you take the Southern states of the US however, who enacted the type of contraversial immigration bill Wilders would like to bring in, it hit everybody hard. Both small and big business suffered and the local economy was badly hit with for example crops left rotting in fields as the labour who had previously harvested them were gone. It also had a PR impact as executives from Japan who were due to invest heavily in a car plant there had second thoughts purely based on the nature of the bill.

I don't agree with you with regards the Chinese comment. Poland has signed up to the EU with all that entails (free movement etc) and is receiving hundreds of millions of EUR in EU subsidies as a result, money which is creating jobs for Poles in a variety of areas, not least construction as the infrastructure is improved. Social Welfare rates are very low in Poland as well, so it's unlikely to suffer from the 'welfare tourism' that some countries have to deal with. Plus, similar to us Irish, it would be difficult for the Poles to complain about immigration when so many have emigrated themselves.

Immigration is a sensitive topic, there's no doubt about it. From an economic perspective, there are benefits which are easily forgotten. Immigrants need homes, food, drink etc to survive all of which must be paid for, which involves spending money in the local economy.

Typically, large numbers of unskilled immigrants are involved in areas where local workers have not been seriously interested in (hell, huge numbers of English and Irish go to Oz for a year out to do something similar, like harvesting fruit etc). This was something noted in the study carried out by the University of Rotterdam.

The number of skilled workers, while a lesser number have also had a role to play as in a srong economy there is typically a deficit in many areas whereby the number of qualified local workers are not enough to fill the economies requirement.

Perhaps a key issue is that people seemed quite happy with immigrants doing these jobs when the economy is good (doing jobs no one else really wanted for little money, resulting in lower service costs for the wider community)... but when the economy goes downhill, it suddenly raises an ethical question.

From a cultural perspective, I can more readily understand peoples' fears I guess. An influx of immigrants from a different culturual or religious background may have a detrimental impact if they refuse to integrate and accept the laws and standards of the society around them.

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Feb 21, 12, 13:32 #55

thebadmonkey:

It's the same across Europe. There's no denying some Polish have taken advantage and rip off the system, and seem to feel no shame in doing so but they're the smaller element of a much wider problem that affects everyone here, Irish and Pole alike. But when emotions run this high, logic tends to go out the window. It hasn't helped when it's been publicized how much money has been taken from the Irish economy by Polish and sent back to families etc in Poland, hundreds of million of euro in the last decade. At face value I can understand why people get upset at that ....but considering our history of immigration over the past hundred years, and the fact the Irish did the exact same thing when huge numbers of us emigrated to the US, Canada, Australia, Britain etc I really can't see how we can complain too much about it.

The worrying thing is that with the economies etc in Europe sliding, people become more narrow minded and extreme in their views - resulting in that Dutch site. Stupidty as they say, knows no nationality.

A realistic and balanced view. Are you sure you've found the right forum? Just kidding, and welcome.

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Feb 21, 12, 21:08 #56

thebadmonkey:

Both small and big business suffered and the local economy was badly hit with for example crops left rotting in fields as the labour who had previously harvested them were gone.

Do you realize how much of European agriculture is heavily subsidized and a big make work project anyhow? Do you realize to what degree 3rd world farmers are restricted from entering the global agriculture market as a another artificial mechanism to protect/allow European production? If we're going to advocate equality then let's not play favourites.

thebadmonkey:

I don't agree with you with regards the Chinese comment. Poland has signed up to the EU with all that entails (free movement etc) and is receiving hundreds of millions of EUR in EU subsidies as a result, money which is creating jobs for Poles in a variety of areas, not least construction as the infrastructure is improved.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from regarding Polish people's place in the EU vs the Chinese being outsiders
but I don't see what consequence I am to draw from your illustration.

thebadmonkey:

Social Welfare rates are very low in Poland as well, so it's unlikely to suffer from the 'welfare tourism' that some countries have to deal with.

I really don't know what you're driving at with this either.

thebadmonkey:

it would be difficult for the Poles to complain about immigration when so many have emigrated themselves.

I thought you had stated it's within a Pole's right to work freely in Europe as that's what they're signed up for (whether they really voted for it or not)? Were you trying to say you thought the China example was a bad comparison? My point is that not all people benefit or have benefited equally or have taken advantage of all the range of what is legal equally- ome simply can't. It is within their right to say they don't like the equality if it affects them negatively, imo.

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Mar 28, 12, 21:46 #57

And how is your Polish, Stu? Don't you think that having lived in Poland for 10 months, having had at least two Polsh girlfriends and a legitimate wife, it's high time you started speaking the language? After all you are such a polyglot... Or maybe you should rather leave this 'backward country' as you always call it, full of (quote again) 'f.....ng Poles', whom you despise??? Oh, of course, how could I forget, you can't go back to NL, you left some unsettled bills over there;)

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