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Should Poland leave the EU institution?


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IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 19:21    #1
What do you think about Poland leaving EU? Seems that UK will do it first, should Poland leave that institution ?
Discus!
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 19:28    #2
(throws discus back at I-S)

Poland is doing well in the EU. However, it needs to avoid manipulation.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 20:14    #3
Poland is doing well in the EU.

Poland is doing well in the EU?
Debt is growing 60 000 per hour, you calling that well?
I haven't even started yet!:)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 20:36    #4
Och, I'm not going to get into these statistics games where figures are pulled from the sky. Debt is a modern reality and many EU countries are doing much worse in that regard.
MyMomThreads: 9
Posts: 185
Joined: Aug 13, 11 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 20:58    #5
I've heard farmers (large scale farmers) saying they would rather give up EU subsides in favour of free market - for example now they can't buy much cheaper fertilizers from outside of EU (or sth like that).
The point is: EU is hardly a free market zone.
CrowThreads: 367
Posts: 7,316
Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: Crow  Aug 22, 11, 21:13    #6
Should Poland leave the EU institution?

no. EU/NATO powers won`t allow that. If just Poland, in this moment, tries to care for her own interests, Poland would be destroyed. In any sense- politically, economically, militarily. Its simple as that

Poles should wait and tries to straighten
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 21:24    #7
Britain won't be allowed to leave and neither will Poland. Crow is right!
CrowThreads: 367
Posts: 7,316
Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 22, 11, 21:40    #8
Britain won't be allowed to leave and neither will Poland. Crow is right!

Its not the same. Britain just pretend to be against EU, while in fact represent main perpetrator of the game.

Poland is something else. Game is against Poland, while Poland must pretend to enjoy in the game.
southernThreads: 116
Posts: 10,955
Joined: May 17, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 21:57    #9
Now you do what the German says.If the German says stay you have stay.
saschaThreads: 13
Posts: 3,856
Joined: Jun 10, 10  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 21:58    #10
Should Poland leave the EU institution?

if germany is loosing the interest and far more example the money to hold the 'kindergarden' together, it will anyway fall apart. the question is only when and how. the why seems to be more than clear... ;)

imo it was a construction doomed to fail because of the human egoism. ;)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 22:17    #11
Again right, Crow. Britain pulls the strings in a number of ways. Poland is small fry in the eyes of the British govt. A future target for bankruptcy.
saschaThreads: 13
Posts: 3,856
Joined: Jun 10, 10  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 22:22    #12
Poland is small fry in the eyes of the British govt


hochmut kommt vor dem fall ;) Pride goes before the fall

i hope for the people of england that it is not happening, but the government would deserve it ;)
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 22, 11, 22:26    #13
I've heard farmers (large scale farmers) saying they would rather give up EU subsides in favour of free market - for example now they can't buy much cheaper fertilizers from outside of EU (or sth like that).


Unlikely to be true - large scale farmers are the ones who massively gain from the CAP.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 22:27    #14
Poland tends to show its honor in avoiding things like Libya and the audacious hack at Syria for doing exactly as Britain did. The time will come when Poland loses tolerance with such banditry.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Ironside  Aug 22, 11, 23:13    #15
Debt is a modern reality and many EU countries are doing much worse in that regard.

Maybe, but in Poland not many things are build ie factories, laboratories, research facilities, if anything what existed was either sold out, destroyed or both.
the European Commission is sending to Poland one directive daily, and there is only one Pole (regardless his usefulness)in the Commission.
No, statistics? Fine:)
Overly So called European unity is a thing of the past - dream long gone with the wind and German constancy. Nowadays Europe is ruled by French-German alliance and UK is coming to the point when they will leave the EU.
To keep them in check a question of Scotland's independence is being played at.

Seanus, you do not people who are in a prominent governmental positions, they have no honor, and they are not there to represent interest of Poland.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 23:21    #16
Geez, I-S, and what roads were built before Poland's accession to the EU compared to those, for example, in Croatia? Their big war only finished 16 years ago yet they still made inroads if you forgive the pun. Many things were not built prior to ratification.

Would it make any difference if 3 Poles were there instead of 1?

You can't help but feel that the EU has been a grand vision all along. Certain banking dynasties had it at the forefront of their minds.

Fragmentation is a weird one. In the case of Serbia, for example, they maybe thought they wouldn't play ball so they fragmented the whole of Yugoslavia and are now trying to get them back onboard as a huge collective.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 23:36    #17
Geez, I-S, and what roads were built before Poland's accession to the EU compared to those, for example, in Croatia? Their big war only finished 16 years ago yet they still made inroads if you forgive the pun. Many things were not built prior to ratification.

Roads, they build more and better roads during soviet rule than they build till Poland's accession to the EU.
Would it make any difference if 3 Poles were there instead of 1?

Not really, depends what kind of Poles they would have been, the point is there is only one :)

You can't help but feel that the EU has been a grand vision all along. Certain banking dynasties had it at the forefront of their minds.

Yeah, I know, and they don't care if the EU is dominated by German interests because in long run it is working for them well.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂ 		 Aug 22, 11, 23:52    #18
So the Soviet built roads were of a high standard? Most Poles would disagree with you.

Numbers don't always count. Sway does!

It is and that's their goal.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 23, 11, 00:07    #19
To keep them in check a question of Scotland's independence is being played at.


That's nothing to do with the EU - the Scottish question has existed since at least the start of the 1900's - and arguably since 1707. The EU has nothing to do with it - in fact, the EU has kept pretty much out of the whole thing.

You can't help but feel that the EU has been a grand vision all along.


Of course - the grand vision to make sure that a bloody war never engulfed the continent again. It's no secret that the European Coal and Steel Community was started for exactly that reason, and continues to this day.

Roads, they build more and better roads during soviet rule than they build till Poland's accession to the EU.


What, you mean the pitiful bit of A2 built near Konin (so called "Olimpijka")?

The roads in Poland during Communist times were described by Timothy Garton-Ash as being "bad, very bad and impassable".

should Poland leave that institution ?


Do you want a return of several hours of queuing at the border, an inability to order things freely from a huge trading bloc, restrictions on working abroad and so on?
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Ironside  Aug 23, 11, 00:23    #20
So the Soviet built roads were of a high standard? Most Poles would disagree with you.

High standard, depends where and when, but definitely better than roads build even few years back, when after three months new surface sunk in so to speak.
If we talk about motorways how, only very few are being build right now. At the moment there is no much difference in than the state of roads before Poland's accession to The EU.
quote=delphiandomine]That's nothing to do with the EU - the Scottish question has existed since at least the start of the 1900's - and arguably since 1707. The EU has nothing to do with it - in fact, the EU has kept pretty much out of the whole thing.
[/quote]
Really ?Are you sure ? Do you think that pro-independent movement rise to prominence in a last few years is only a coincidence ?
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		Edited by: delphiandomine  Aug 23, 11, 00:55    #21
If we talk about motorways how, only very few are being build right now. At the moment there is no much difference in than the state of roads before Poland's accession to The EU.

Not much difference?

No, only quite a lot of new motorway and expressway. Not much difference, really.

Let's see - 200km of A2 (soon to be 300km), the Wroclaw-Katowice section of A4 along with the Zgorzelec-A18 junction section, about 120km of A1 along with the bits south of Gliwice, the A8 Wroclaw ring (almost finished, and a bit is open), the A18 got the second carriageway, the A6 has been totally reconstructed.

As for expressway, where do we start? There's a huge bit of S3 open from Gorzow to Szczecin, the S1 in the south has seen some extra bits added, the S5 will have about 60km open soon, the S11 Poznan ring is about to open soon, the S7 has quite a bit built now...the list is endless.

In fact - motorway building has been good regardless of what political party held power. the SLD, PiS and PO have all been building away - it's one of the few things that seems to have broad party consensus.

Really ?Are you sure ? Do you think that pro-independent movement rise to prominence in a last few years is only a coincidence ?

Take a look at the history before making such statements. You'll see that the rise of the pro-independence movement is nothing new - in fact, it was arguably stronger during the 1970's than it is now. It is *everything* to do with inept leadership of the UK and nothing to do with the EU.
MyMomThreads: 9
Posts: 185
Joined: Aug 13, 11 ♂ 		 Aug 23, 11, 01:22    #22
So the Soviet built roads were of a high standard?

Many were build so that Warsaw pact big military planes could land on them :) Some PRL general talked about it.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Aug 23, 11, 01:31    #23
Many were build so that Warsaw pact big military planes could land on them :) Some PRL general talked about it.


Where would they be, then? No such thing in Poland exists.

The former "Reichsautobahn" were in no state for planes landing there, and the Autostrada's that did get built during Communism weren't particularly good either.

I'm pretty sure that it's just a myth arising from the common myth that the American Interstates were to be used for such a purpose.
convexThreads: 46
Posts: 7,185
Joined: Nov 25, 09  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Aug 23, 11, 01:55    #24
Where would they be, then? No such thing in Poland exists.

Just about every country has highway strips, Poland has quite a few.

But uh, back to Poland leaving the EU?
MyMomThreads: 9
Posts: 185
Joined: Aug 13, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: MyMom  Aug 23, 11, 03:07    #25
I'm pretty sure that it's just a myth arising from the common myth that the American Interstates were to be used for such a purpose.

PRL colonel Stanisław Radaj from General Staff said something else in a documentary (War Games), but you know better...
You do often talk about things you know nothing about?
PalivecThreads: -
Posts: 333
Joined: Apr 22, 11 ♂ 		 Aug 23, 11, 07:12    #26
So, US-Americans, Brits and a Serb discuss if Poland should leave the EU. Haha...
All former Commie countries, including Poland, pushed hard become EU members. Western Europe was reluctant to admit them so soon because of the convergence criterias, but it was seen as a sign of historic justice. When Schengen was implemented Poles, and all other countries like Czechia, were overjoyed to be a full member of the European community now. Being able to drive from Poland to Germany without a border check, something many Poles considered humiliating, was a great experience for many.
And we shouldn't forget that Poland is the biggest recipient of EU aid.
Chicago PollockThreads: 10
Posts: 638
Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂ 		 Aug 23, 11, 07:43    #27
And we shouldn't forget that Poland is the biggest recipient of EU aid.


Poland was also biggest recipient of war damage. Consider EU aid war reparations, why not? The longer Poland stays in EU, Poland will eventually lose it's sovereignty. Poland should emulate Norway, Iceland, Switzerland. Forget EU.
PalivecThreads: -
Posts: 333
Joined: Apr 22, 11 ♂ 		 Aug 23, 11, 08:06    #28
Chicago Pollock
Poland was also biggest recipient of war damage. Consider EU aid war reparations, why not?


Because Poland already received the entire property of 9 mio Germans maybe?


The longer Poland stays in EU, Poland will eventually lose it's sovereignty. Poland should emulate Norway, Iceland, Switzerland. Forget EU.


Sorry to say this, but Polands civil society isn't advanced enough to emulate these countries. Which country wouldn't like to be a second Switzerland?
TheHessianThreads: 1
Posts: 52
Joined: Jan 29, 11 ♂ 		 Aug 23, 11, 08:12    #29
Poland was also biggest recipient of war damage. Consider EU aid war reparations, why not?


So the Dutch, Belgians, Finnish, Swedish, Danish etc. owe Poland war reparations? For what exactly?
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Ironside  Aug 23, 11, 12:01    #30
Palivec
And we shouldn't forget that Poland is the biggest recipient of EU aid.

Because Poland is the biggest country in this part of Europe, do you have a problem with that ?

Because Poland already received the entire property of 9 mio Germans maybe?

I consider that reparation for damages and losses caused by said Germans to property of Poles - do you have problem with that ?
Not to mention lost of half of the territory to Soviets directly as a result of German action.
Sorry to say this, but Poland's civil society isn't advanced enough to emulate these countries.

I'm sure German society is advanced enough, they had been saying that in the past while mass-murdering people on industrial scale, yeah those Poles are not advanced enough - thanks God!

stronger during the 1970's than it is now.

How do you measure that ?


As a remainder 20% of Poles voted against Poland accession to the EU.

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