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Smoleńsk: Officials pressured pilots.


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TrevekThreads: 33
Posts: 2,155
Joined: May 21, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 13:37    #1
It is now being alleged that high ranking aides to the president pressured the pilots:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20110112/twl-polish-president-s-aides-pres sured-a-3b70ac1.html
alexw68 Edited by: alexw68  Jan 12, 11, 13:46    #2
The sickening thing is they ALWAYS knew this - and they chose to repress the information in the name not of honour to the deceased but of political expediency.

In a more ruthless world, there would be and perhaps should be a couple of spare slots in the Wawel coming up around now.

Except that Lechu's wife was a shining example of just about everything, and for that reason alone they should be allowed to rest in peace.

EDIT: Having said that, Rzeczpospolita's take on this remains that pilot error was solely to blame: http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,592729_MAK--bledne-decyzje-pilotow-pod-pres ja.html. Which strikes me as whitewash in the light of the following (from the same article):

- obecność szefa sił powietrznych polskiego wojska, generała Andrzeja Błasika w kabinie pilotów wywierała presję na załogę, która zdecydowała się na lądowanie mimo złych warunków. Obecność dowódcy mogła mieć znaczący wpływ na błędne decyzje załogi. Podczas badań we krwi generała Błasika wykryto alkohol etylowy w stężeniu 0,6 promila.M AK przekazał też, że w nerkach generała alkoholu nie stwierdzono. Zdaniem MAK, najbardziej prawdopodobne jest to, że alkohol został spożyty w czasie lotu. Nie stwierdzono obecności alkoholu we krwi żadnej z pozostałych ofiar.

- the presence of the Air Chief Marshal, Andrzej Błasik, in the cockpit put pressure on the crew, who decided to land in spite of the bad conditions. The presence of a superior officer could have had a significant influence on the crew's incorrect decision. Blood tests on Gen. Błasik revealed an ethyl alcohol level of 0.6 per mil. The investigation also revealed that no alcohol was found in the General's kidneys. It therefore believes that most probably the alcohol was consumed during the flight. The presence of alcohol was not confirmed in the remaining victims' blood.
frdThreads: 8
Posts: 1,956
Joined: Feb 3, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 13:55    #3
Of course they did. It's not a surprise. And everyone knew Lech has got all the blood on his hands.
noreenbThreads: 4
Posts: 1,082
Joined: Apr 22, 09  Pictures: 3 ♀ 		 Jan 12, 11, 13:57    #4
The last report prepared by Russians isn't full. They were focused only on Polish pilots' mistakes. Why have they avoided answering on questions about 1). control tower and 2). cooperation between controllers and pilots, exchanging clue informations about weather conditions, parametres of flight and so on...? Isn't it significant? Besides thy gave an information about level of horizon too late.
The last MAK's report doesn't say much, well doesn't say anything about 2 very important aspects of the flight. They were concentrated only on Polish pilots fault. Why?
alexw68  Jan 12, 11, 14:15    #5
noreenb:
The last MAK report doesn't say much


True, it doesn't. And, ironically, what better surname than Anodina for the leader of an anodyne investigation that will have pulled nearly all of its punches by the time the thing is done?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 14:39    #6
noreenb:
The last MAK's report doesn't say much, well doesn't say anything about 2 very important aspects of the flight. They were concentrated only on Polish pilots fault. Why?

Probably because there apparently was no co-operation between the control tower and the pilots (control tower said "conditions for acceptance : none" and the pilots promptly flew below their minimum while looking for the runway). As for the Polish pilots' fault, they were told that the conditions were such that they were not accepted for landing and they then flew below their minimum while repeatedly ignoring that the aircraft's terrain awareness and warning system was repeatedly telling them to "pull up, pull up", and had warned them "terrain ahead": what further fault would you need to see before agreeing that the pilots were at fault?

The question is why would they have broken three golden rules of flying? Could it be that they felt pressured by the head of the airforce (i.e. their boss) and the reaction of their boss's boss the last time he'd been told by a pilot that he couldn't land where he wanted to?
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 15:39    #7
alexw68:
It therefore believes that most probably the alcohol was consumed during the flight. The


Oh jeez. I'm reading the report now, but....

From what I've read so far, the defence minister almost certainly has to take the blame for the multitude of mistakes made on the Polish side.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 15:46    #8
delphiandomine:
Oh jeez. I'm reading the report now, but....

In case anybody else is interested, here is a link to the report.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 15:48    #9
Trevek:
high ranking aides to the president pressured the pilots

Experienced pilots like that know when the risk is too high, they would have risked thei rlives and almost a hundred other peoples.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 15:56    #10
PennBoy:
Experienced pilots like that know when the risk is too high, they would have risked thei rlives and almost a hundred other peoples.

And that particular pilot also knew what happened to the last pilot who didn't land where the boss said when the boss said and that on that occasion the boss wasn't late for a very important ceremony which he'd be furious to miss.

Or do you mean by "experienced pilot" the head of the Air Force? A man who was legal unfit to drive a car at the time the plane crashed.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:00    #11
Harry:
A man who was legal unfit to drive a car at the time the plane crashed.


This is definitely one of the big stories - boozing on board the flight and then performing navigation duties? Dear oh dear....
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:05    #12
Of course the Russians are always innocent, no shocker they did the investigation on their own.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/01/russia n-report-blames-poles-for-plane-crash-that-killed-polands-president/1
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:07    #13
PennBoy:
Of course the Russians are always innocent, no shocker they did the investigation on their own.


We're actually now waiting for the Polish report.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:11    #14
delphiandomine:
This is definitely one of the big stories - boozing on board the flight and then performing navigation duties? Dear oh dear....

Interesting stuff on page 90 about the crew's positions when they crashed: seems very like the poor sods had no idea that they were about to fly into the ground.
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:12    #15
delphiandomine:
We're actually now waiting for the Polish report.

What Polish report?? they did it on their own they had the black boxes first, initial Polish report said it was tampered with, they had the upper hand in this investigation whatever they say happened happened, if there was any proof to contradict it they've eliminated it.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:19    #16
PennBoy:
any proof

Proof? Since when did your ilk need any proof?
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:21    #17
PennBoy:
Of course the Russians are always innocent, no shocker they did the investigation on their own.



What exactly is it the Russians did wrong...?

The Polish pilots ignored all advice to land , and flew the dam plane into the ground..i am trying hard here , but i just can,t see how the Russians are to blame for that...????
PennBoyThreads: 157
Posts: 3,443
Joined: Dec 7, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:23    #18
Harry:
Proof? Since when did your ilk need any proof?

OK but they haven't shown any proof to say it did happen like they say either.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:28    #19
wildrover:
The Polish pilots ignored all advice to land , and flew the dam plane into the ground..i am trying hard here , but i just can,t see how the Russians are to blame for that...????

It's obvious: the Russians should have shot the Polish plane down in order to prevent it from making a dangerous landing, as any fule kno....
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 16:44    #20
wildrover:
The Polish pilots ignored all advice to land ,


I should have said.......ignored all advice NOT to land.. of course...
NomadatNetThreads: 6
Posts: 1,492
Joined: Mar 28, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 18:06    #21
Maybe, they didn't have enough fuel to stay in the air for a longer time.
Anyway. If the story is true, president should have known he is not president in the airplane.
If Pilot resisted to the pressure, he would likely have lost his job, hence money.
Once again, it is seen that humans can do everythings for money.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 18:29    #22
NomadatNet:
Maybe, they didn't have enough fuel to stay in the air for a longer time.

They had fuel for another hour and a half.

NomadatNet:
If the story is true, president should have known he is not president in the airplane.

He showed in Georgia and afterwards that he did not know that.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Ironside  Jan 12, 11, 18:42    #23
A funny thing, as soon as I heard that Russians will investigate Smolensk, I knew who will be blamed.
Am I genius, seer or prophet, definitely NO!

It only rises the question again - was it accident or not!
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Jan 12, 11, 18:45    #24
Ironside:
A funny thing, as soon as I heard that Russians will investigate Smolensk, I knew who will be blamed.
Am I genius, seer or prophet, defiantly NO!

No need to be those things: the Polish pilots were told (by Russians and Poles) there were no conditions to land but tried anyway, they came in too fast and too step and then when below their minimum altitude while ignoring the computers screaming at them to pull up. Obviously it must be the fault of the Russians.
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 19:03    #25
noreenb:
Besides thy gave an information about level of horizon too late.


Perhaps they thought that telling them it was unsafe to land meant they didn,t need this information...??
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		Edited by: Ironside  Jan 12, 11, 19:46    #26
Harry:
the Polish pilots were told

were they ?
Harry:
while ignoring the computers screaming at them to pull up.

Sure Harry, the pilots were Polish it have to be their fault.
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 21:34    #27
In future they should get Russian pilots to fly the president around...! Then Poles can be happy to accept pilot error when there is an air crash...?
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,786
Joined: Feb 26, 09 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 21:47    #28
wildrover:
In future they should get Russian pilots


pilots error is an easy explanation, perhaps it was their error perhaps not, but I don't have to to take some Russian commission word for it!
Not anybody for that matter!
I'm just amused by some people ready acceptance of mass media hay for mindless cattle !
sobieskiThreads: 82
Posts: 1,143
Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 21:52    #29
So what is new here? The drunk Polish general. As I know in every cicilized European country pilots get sacked for this promille.
For the rest? A crew which bowed to pressure from the said drunk and the chief duck. They ignored the warning system "pull up". They ignored all previous warnings because most probably they were forced by the Katynists.
What more is there to say?
That the duck plane got shot down by Putin or by Nazi flying saucers?
wildroverThreads: 180
Posts: 8,188
Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂ 		 Jan 12, 11, 22:26    #30
Ironside:
perhaps it was their error perhaps not,


Thats why the crash was investigated....and now the results are known....

The cause of the crash was pilot error..

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