Smolensk one year later

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,143 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	Edited by: sobieski Apr 10, 11, 21:13 #1
I went today with some friends to KM... The full circus going on... I saw the ugly face of Polish catholic fascism rearing its head again. The duck is thinking that this will help him in his election campaign. I think he could be wrong :) And bring on the referendum for building yet another statue for the second duck... I think 101 % of Varsovians will reject it.

warszawskiThreads: 60 Posts: 2,388 Joined: May 21, 10 ♂	Apr 10, 11, 22:16 #2
sobieski: I saw the ugly face of Polish catholic fascism rearing its head again. No, you did not, you saw people showing their respect and emotions for people that died in the smolensk tragedy. With a name like sobieski, you should know better, back in your hole, troll.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Apr 10, 11, 22:25 #3

sobieski:

I saw the ugly face of Polish catholic fascism rearing its head again.

It certainly was on full display today - those banners are nothing short of shameful.

sobieski:

The duck is thinking that this will help him in his election campaign. I think he could be wrong :)

I really cannot figure out what he's thinking. Looking at the pictures, the crowd was full of the old deluded types with nothing better to do - and these people aren't going to win him the election. To then claim that the democratically elected President and Sejm have no mandate is absolutely unbelievable.

The hatred is just unbelievable - and that's without talking about the utter disgrace of the cross being used yet again as a political weapon.

sobieski:

And bring on the referendum for building yet another statue for the second duck... I think 101 % of Varsovians will reject it.

It's almost certainly going to get rejected.

The worst thing is that the Church has, yet again, managed to get mixed up in politics. Don't they see what harm they're doing to themselves by allowing the crosses and churches to be used as political weapons?

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Apr 10, 11, 23:23 #4

sobieski:

I went today with some friends to KM... The full circus going on... I saw the ugly face of Polish catholic fascism rearing its head again.
The duck is thinking that this will help him in his election campaign. I think he could be wrong :)
And bring on the referendum for building yet another statue for the second duck... I think 101 % of Varsovians will reject it.

Please, don`t associate all Catholics with the circus organised by PiS and their leader, Kaczyński.

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Apr 11, 11, 00:01 #5

delphiandomine:

The hatred is just unbelievable - and that's without talking about the utter disgrace of the cross being used yet again as a political weapon.

The hatred comes from people like yourself Mr D,,, once again more rubbish talk, The Smolensk tragedy is something that non poles can understand, the true nature of the tragedy has never been fully explained hence so much speculation, best you stick to real estate or go back to where you come from.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Apr 11, 11, 00:04 #6
wielki pan: The Smolensk tragedy is something that non poles can understand, Every country has had their tragedies - not every country has an army of elderly villagers screaming hysterically outside the presidential palace for months, egged on by clergy.

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Apr 11, 11, 00:13 #7

JonnyM:

Every country has had their tragedies - not every country has an army of elderly villagers screaming hysterically outside the presidential palace for months, egged on by clergy.

Poland is a democratic country, people are entitled to grieve they way they see appropriate, understand that Poland is a Catholic country, did people in GB not grieve when Princess Dianne died, not a word was said about the way streets were blocked and flowers spread over roadways?? if it occurs in Poland out comes the crap from bitter/angry/ church haters, get real will you.

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Edited by: JonnyM Apr 11, 11, 00:17 #8

wielki pan:

Poland is a democratic country

Remember the guy who wanted to make a 'fourth republic'.

wielki pan:

not a word was said about the way streets were blocked and flowers spread over roadways??

Plenty was said, and in any case it lasted a week. Not months, and no gangs of old ladies physically preventing the dead flowers being removed and screaming abuse at police.

wielki pan:

bitter/angry/ church haters

Most people had nothing to do with the fiasco in Krakowskie Przedmiescie - the 'defenders of the cross' were a tiny minority.

The issue isn't that there was mourning - that happens. It is about the politicised nature of it, the behaviour of LK's party and the attempts to revive it a year later.

FlaglessPoleThreads: 7 Posts: 1,394 Joined: Aug 19, 10 ♂	Apr 11, 11, 00:19 #9
A recent survey said 78% of Poles were bored and irritated of hearing about it all the time. A group of students started a campaign on the social networking site Facebook to have one full day without mentioning the disaster. The poll also found that 87% believed the crash was being used as a political tool.

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Edited by: Moderator Apr 11, 11, 00:19 #10

However, yes, you're right - the tactics used by PiS into manipulating the church to suit their own political objectives is something straight out of Russia. I'd forgotten all about how the Orthodox church was and is very much in cahoots with the Kremlin - just like Franco's Spain and many other examples.

We don't want the same nonsense here, thank you.

wielki pan:

The hatred comes from people like yourself Mr D,,, once again more rubbish talk, The Smolensk tragedy is something that non poles can understand, the true nature of the tragedy has never been fully explained hence so much speculation, best you stick to real estate or go back to where you come from.

I'm not the one screaming that the democratically elected government is illegitimate.

wielki pan:

Poland is a democratic country, people are entitled to grieve they way they see appropriate

I, along with most people, draw the line at when people start claiming that the elections are falsified.

And let's not start on the stuff that is downright slanderous and nasty.

wielki pan:

understand that Poland is a Catholic country

Understand that many elements within the Catholic church are opposed to such manipulation for political purposes.

Don't you think it's sick that the cross, an icon of forgiveness, is being used to spew hatred towards the Government and others? In fact - if you're such a Catholic, you should be defending the cross from it being used as a political weapon in demonstrations.

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Apr 11, 11, 00:26 #11

JonnyM:

Most people had nothing to do with the fiasco in Krakowskie Przedmiescie - the 'defenders of the cross' were a tiny minority.

Difficult to make that assumption, the church has distanced itself from this type of protest, understand that people grieve differently and this should be respected... this was a tragedy for the Polish people, once again when JFK was assassinated in 1963 a similar situation occurred and it was not only till some time after that the true facts came to light.

JonnyMThreads: 16 Posts: 4,487 Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂	Apr 11, 11, 00:29 #12
wielki pan: Difficult to make that assumption, the church has distanced itself from this type of protes That's part of it - the inability of the church in Poland to control its extreme faction. wielki pan: when JFK was assassinated in 1963 a similar situation occurred Very very different. And no months of screaming demonstrations over his memorial.

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Apr 11, 11, 00:36 #13

JonnyM:

Very very different. And no months of screaming demonstrations over his memorial

no, no, no.... stop talking nonsense, just admit that you hate the Catholic Church for whatever reason and rest your case...people who take part in demonstrations do it at there own will and the church cannot be responsible for their actions. Don't blame the Church for a few people who protest.
I get fed up with people who knock the church without valid reasons.

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Apr 11, 11, 00:41 #14

wielki pan:

just admit that you hate the Catholic Church

You mean the Catholic Church that I'm a lifelong member of?

wielki pan:

people who take part in demonstrations do it at there own will and the church cannot be responsible for their actions

When they're bussed down with priests and nuns it isn't exactly outside the Church who must take responsibility for not stopping it - which they can easily by applying normal episcopal discipline to the priests involved.

wielki pan:

Don't blame the Church for a few people who protest.

Protesting largely in the name of the Church who have so far been unable to put a stop to it.

Just admit that you hate Poland...

Zman	Apr 11, 11, 00:59 #15
I for one chose to see the Rocky Horror Picture Show musical tonight, in commemoration of 10/4 event. Had a blast! :-) Oh, and I am polish and somewhat catholic, as all of us. The theater was full!

isthatu2Threads: 13 Posts: 5,225 Joined: Apr 3, 08 ♂	Apr 11, 11, 01:05 #16
Im pretty sure you wernt the only one doing the timewarp .....the Witamy w PRL signs I saw at the demo's were a tad confusing to say the least.......

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Apr 11, 11, 09:38 #17

wielki pan:

the church has distanced itself from this type of protest

The problem is that it hasn't, much to its own detriment.

The Polish church seems to be locked in some sort of civil war - while all seems to be fine on the outside, it's painfully obvious from their inaction that they can't agree what to do. Look back at the "cross crisis" - they took weeks to even make a definitive statement that it was wrong to use the cross in such a way.

It's very sad to see that they're so mixed up in politics, but I guess when they've spent nearly 100 years being involved in just that - it's hard to let go.

wielki pan:

people who take part in demonstrations do it at there own will and the church cannot be responsible for their actions.

I refer you to the sermon made yesterday in Jasne Gora. The church is *more* than responsible for some of this.

wielki pan:

I get fed up with people who knock the church without valid reasons.

I think allowing the church to be used for politics is a very valid reason to knock it.

Don't forget - many Catholics are also bitterly upset with the use of Church institutions to further the agenda of Jaroslaw Kaczynski. For instance, my local parish seemed to refrain from giving any sermons yesterday.

alexw68

Edited by: Moderator Apr 11, 11, 13:59 #18

Besides which - while it's clear that for the vast majority of Poles this quite rightly remains a black day and it's only reasonable that it should live long in the memory, some things aren't quite right. Jola, would you disagree with the following:

1) The dignity and unity on the political stage that immediately followed the tragedy a year ago is long, long gone. More recently:
2) The PO/SLD MPs who said in the one or two days preceding the anniversary that it is time for the mourning to stop are a disgrace to their station - if only for the staggeringly insensitive timing. It is time to move on - but April 11th would have been a more appropriate time to say so. Verdict: is it not time for these people given their public positions, to exercise a little maturity and dignity?
3) The right and proper way to mourn a brother and President's passing is either a) privately, en famille, or b) in conjunction with the existing organs of state/Church whose responsibility it is to orchestrate these things on the national scale. Not the petty-minded fringe event that PiS organised by way of protest. Verdict: is it not time for these people, too, given their public positions, to exercise a little maturity and dignity?

So, you see: on both sides of the ever-widening divide, not everyone - indeed, not many of those holding high office - emerges with a great deal of credit.

(By way of balance: a far, far lesser tragedy was that of Princess Diana's death - but that, too, was handled pretty ineptly by the relevant British powers at the time)

A.

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Apr 11, 11, 22:34 #19

sobieski:

I went today with some friends to KM... The full circus going on... I saw the ugly face of Polish catholic fascism rearing its head again.
The duck is thinking that this will help him in his election campaign. I think he could be wrong :)

As delp

delphiandomine:

Don't forget - many Catholics are also bitterly upset with the use of Church institutions to further the agenda of Jaroslaw Kaczynski. For instance, my local parish seemed to refrain from giving any sermons yesterday.

I agree with delphiandomine.

However, things done by PiS, including the last night`s march with burning torches, may resemble the dark times of fascists.

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Apr 11, 11, 23:15 #20

pawian:

However, things done by PiS, including the last night`s march with burning torches, may resemble the dark times of fascists.

There are a lot of scary parallels between these people and Franco's regime - especially now that their language has gone into the territory of refusing to recognise the democratically elected leaders of the country and openly talking about rebellion.

I cannot understand for the life of me why Kaczynski is embracing them - is he really so egotistical that he's willing to play to 7,000 diehards (which is a terrible result, given that it was Sunday) rather than 7,000,000 potential voters?

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Apr 11, 11, 23:16 #21

The latest concept to memorialise the SMolensk crash victims is a monument in front of the Presidential Palace made of light -- 96 beams of light from the ground skyward. Marta Kaczyńska, the orphan daughter of the Kaczyńskis is all for it. What do you think? It's a bit too 'son et lumière' for my tastes, although there has been no talk of sound.
As to elections tactics, PiS has got an iron-clad electroate of about 27%, PO's is only slightly larger (30-33%). Another 10-15% or so have been known to vote for PO not out of sympathy or conviction but to stop PiS getting into power.
However, the PiS bugbear is no longer as effectvie a weapon. A lot will depend on the economy. If price increrases continue apace, that will hurt those currently in power and make PO a less desirable choice. (At present petrol is dearer than beer -- last I heard 95 octane was 5.13 zł a litre).

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Edited by: delphiandomine Apr 11, 11, 23:31 #22

Polonius3:

As to elections tactics, PiS has got an iron-clad electroate of about 27%, PO's is only slightly larger (30-33%). Another 10-15% or so have been known to vote for PO not out of sympathy or conviction but to stop PiS getting into power.

Polonius, that's probably the best observation you've made on this forum.

Electorally, you're absolutely right - PiS has about that 27% - maybe a little bit less, maybe a little bit more already guaranteed. They don't have to do anything to get that vote - in the absence of any other "Catholic worker" alternative, it's theirs for the taking. No matter how hysterical Jaroslaw gets, they actually do have a pretty solid voting bloc right there. Even the stuff such as insulting Silesians will only reduce their vote by 2-3% at the very most.

Polonius3:

PO's is only slightly larger (30-33%). Another 10-15% or so have been known to vote for PO not out of sympathy or conviction but to stop PiS getting into power.

Again, spot on. I know a lot of people who aren't fond of PO's policies, but who will not vote for PiS and who will not vote for the SLD because of the post-communist connection. During the last election, a lot of my friends voted for Komorowski to keep Kaczynski out - not because they wanted Komorowski to win.

I've always said and I'll say again - PiS are terribly electable if they drop the -phobia and start concentrating on their key Catholic-socialist policies.

Polonius3:

If price increrases continue apace, that will hurt those currently in power and make PO a less desirable choice. (At present petrol is dearer than beer -- last I heard 95 octane was 5.13 zł a litre).

Indeed, it plays straight into the SLD's hands.

I can actually see a situation happening where PiS win the election, but fail to form the government due to the other parties forming a majority coalition. I wouldn't actually be shocked if a situation arose where PiS expelled the rabble-rousers, invited the PJN back into PiS and formed a viable coalition. If they lose this year, they'll have at least 3 years in the political wilderness - it's just not possible for them to survive it without major changes.

As for the lights memorial - great idea, but make sure that every light is equal. It's certainly an innovative, non-confrontational idea. I actually like it - all I want is for the lights to be treated equally and for not one light to be important than the others. It would even be nicer if they were different colours - a celebration, if you will.

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Apr 12, 11, 01:02 #23

delphiandomine:

I cannot understand for the life of me why Kaczynski is embracing them - is he really so egotistical that he's willing to play to 7,000 diehards (which is a terrible result, given that it was Sunday) rather than 7,000,000 potential voters?

Kaczyński was rational when he and his twin brother, Wałesa`a best henchmen, fought against communism.

After losing his twin, J. Kaczyński stopped being rational. He is obsessed and blinded by hatred to all those whom he accuses of his brother`s death. In this way he is trying to push certain nasty thought out of his mind. Namely, that the only person really responsible for his brother`s death is him. He is aware of it, that is why he shouts so loudly to hush down those little devils in his mind/psyche who shriek day and night: Hang yourself! It is time!

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Apr 12, 11, 01:07 #24

pawian:

After losing his twin, J. Kaczyński stopped being rational. He is obsessed and blinded by hatred to all those whom he accuses of his brother`s death. In this way he is trying to push certain nasty thought out of his mind. Namely, that the only person really responsible for his brother`s death is him. He is aware of it, that is why he shouts so loudly to hush down those little devils in his mind/psyche who shriek day and night: Hang yourself! It is time!

It certainly seems to be so - I recall that many people were saying well before the crash that Lech only became President at Jaroslaw's urging.

I really pity him, and I wish him a pleasant, peaceful retirement from politics. Perhaps outside of the public eye, he'll be able to find peace with himself.

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Apr 12, 11, 01:20 #25

pawian:

After losing his twin, J. Kaczyński stopped being rational. He is obsessed and blinded by hatred to all those whom he accuses of his brother`s death. In this way he is trying to push certain nasty thought out of his mind. Namely, that the only person really responsible for his brother`s death is him. He is aware of it, that is why he shouts so loudly to hush down those little devils in his mind/psyche who shriek day and night: Hang yourself! It is time!

You beat me to it. Excellent post.

pgtxThreads: 49 Posts: 6,327 Joined: Feb 14, 09 MEMBER ♀	Apr 12, 11, 01:52 #26
aren't you all tired of the same news everyday for the past year...?

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Edited by: pawian Apr 12, 11, 01:59 #27

delphiandomine:

I really pity him, and I wish him a pleasant, peaceful retirement from politics. Perhaps outside of the public eye, he'll be able to find peace with himself.

He won`t. If he retires, nasty devils in his mind won`t relinquish until he hangs himself.

That is why he is going to fight till the end. He is a born fighter. And it doesn`t matter he is calling for a civil war in Poland. He is ready and expecting it. Only then, as a revolutionary leader, will he be able to regain power that he craves for.

pgtx:

aren't you all tired of the same news everyday for the past year...?

No. The situation is very dynamic, we can see the escalation of hostilities, so it is never the same as it was in the past.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Apr 12, 11, 02:04 #28
pawian: That is why he is going to fight till the end. He is a born fighter. And it doesn`t matter he is calling for a civil war in Poland. He is ready and expecting it. Only then, as a revolutionary leader, will he be able to regain power that he craves for. He really should do something about getting himself a better army ;)

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,398 Joined: May 30, 08 ♂	Apr 12, 11, 02:16 #29
delphiandomine: He really should do something about getting himself a better army ;) Like father, like son. :):):)

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Apr 16, 11, 17:33 #30
It was so nice of Georgians to name a street in central Tbilisi after Lech Kaczynski http://konflikty.wp.pl/gid,12567554,kat,1020379,title,Gruzini-uhonorow ali-polskiego-prezydenta,galeria.html?ticaid=1c239

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