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Will this ever be possible in Poland? (about the church and child abuse)


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sobieskiThreads: 82
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Edited by: Moderator  Apr 15, 11, 13:52    #1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13089763

It seems the church has learnt nothing whatsoever. They never do actually. But society did.
Question... Why Poland seems to be exempt from whatever childabuse cases by the church? Does this stop by some kind of miracle on the German/Polish border?
Yes we had paetz, but he was "only" raping +18's, so that was quickly pardoned. But for the rest?

I think that in Poland, any prosecutor/policeman trying to make such a case could forget about his/her career.

HarryThreads: 62
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 Apr 15, 11, 13:58    #2
sobieski:
I think that in Poland, any prosecutor/policeman trying to make such a case could forget about his/her career.

You have hit the nail on the head there.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Apr 15, 11, 14:07    #3
I remember a case (that was only picked up by Fakty i Mity) about a lady who walked in on her 10 year old son being raped by a priest, who was filming the abuse. This was in rural Poland. Of course she went to the police. They suddenly stopped investigating, released the priest who simply vanished and wouldn't discuss it further with the woman.

The reason was that it was a few weeks before JP2's last visit to Poland and the church was pulling strings to ensure there wasn't a sniff of scandal relating to clerical child abuse to cast a cloud on it. JP2 after all was where the buck stopped.

The RCC used to cover up child abuse in other countries (a good friend worked at the place in southern England where the worst abusers were spirited away to for 'therapy') rather than let justice take its course. It blew up in their faces with lawsuits and headlines everywhere. In Poland, the longer it's swept under the carpet, the bigger the shitstorm will be when they can no longer do that.
MidasThreads: 2
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 Apr 15, 11, 14:25    #4
Will this is be ever possible in Poland? -

Yes, of course, in 20 to 30 years or so.

I absolutely love it how some of the Polish completely hate the Jewish who were kicked out of Poland without as much as a bucket to **** in and are bold enough to try to reclaim lost property in Polish courts, throwing around arguments like "You're robbing our state" etc. while at the same time saying nothing about the Catholic church that didn't even have to go to court most of the time to get millions and millions of dollars in restitution ( the infamous "Komisja Majatkowa" - more here: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komisja_maj%C4%85tkowa - which cheated numerous Polish out of their property and handed it over to the Catholic church, which, surprise, surprise, promptly sold said property for mucho dinero ).

I think that in Poland, any prosecutor/policeman trying to make such a case could forget about his/her career.

Spot on, indeed.

The reason why members of the Catholic church in Poland continue to have "informal immunity" from prosecution, regardless whether they pull off a massive swindle or molest kids, is because of voting power.

They still have a strong grasp on the voting preferences of a significant portion of the Polish population. Heck, 15 years ago they were straight up telling people in churches how to vote. As long as this persists ( read - until the "radio maryja" crowd dies off ) the Polish church will be above and beyond the law.
sobieskiThreads: 82
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 Apr 15, 11, 14:46    #5
I am not proud of the fact this happened in my native Belgium (no doubt some PIS will refer to Dutroux now).
But we did have recently a parliamentary committee investigating church abuse. I saw on TV our bishops squirming under the sharp questions from all parties (including the Christian-Democrats), live on TV.
But I am very proud of the fact that the police raided the home of the Belgian primate and confiscated all PC's and files. They exposed all the filth going on in the church for decades.

And in my country the MP's in this commission will be re-elected next time. These policemen will pursue their careers.
I am proud of this because here in Poland...tell me...would it be possible?

Here half the episcopate supports the Smolenkists.
MidasThreads: 2
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Edited by: Midas  Apr 15, 11, 15:09    #6
In terms of social progress ( which nowadays includes - for better or for worse - secularization of societies ) Poland has usually been about 20 years behind Western Europe so You'll see the stuff You mentioned in Poland in the future.

Nowadays? No way sir, don't bet on it. I'll actually be very surprised if any of the Catholic bigwigs suffer any form of criminal penalty for the "Komisja Majatkowa" scandal, which costed regular Polish joes millions ( and in which a guy who worked as a middle-man was a member of the infamous "esbecja", the "Polska Ludowa" political police ). Perhaps someone will retire to a quiet parish here or there, but criminal consequences? In case of a priest, a man of the cloth?? Public hearings? An MP-lead investigation?? Nonsense, sir.

At least in Poland.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Apr 15, 11, 15:20    #7
Midas:
I absolutely love it how some of the Polish completely hate the Jewish who were kicked out of Poland without as much as a bucket to **** in and are bold enough to try to reclaim lost property in Polish courts, throwing around arguments like "You're robbing our state" etc. while at the same time saying nothing about the Catholic church that didn't even have to go to court most of the time to get millions and millions of dollars in restitution ( the infamous "Komisja Majatkowa" - more here: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komisja_maj%C4%85tkowa - which cheated numerous Polish out of their property and handed it over to the Catholic church, which, surprise, surprise, promptly sold said property for mucho dinero ).


This makes me laugh too - it's going to be one hell of a scandal in future when the true extent of the corruption becomes clear.

I always reference the Poznan situation, where the RCC has more or less forced a public high school to leave their building due to imposing ridiculously large rents upon the city after getting the building returned to them. The greed is just staggering.

sobieski:
Here half the episcopate supports the Smolenkists.


That's exactly the problem - that the RCC was so wrapped up in politics for years (even during the II RP) that they find it impossible to let go now.
NrthPznnDvsnThreads: 1
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 Apr 15, 11, 16:33    #8
delphiandomine:
I always reference the Poznan situation, where the RCC has more or less forced a public high school to leave their building due to imposing ridiculously large rents upon the city after getting the building returned to them. The greed is just staggering.

I used to learn in that high school and also like this example, every priest in this country is a hipocrite and every one who supports them is a hipocrite too. They used to like popes power too much and church grow too high, since popes death they don't know what to do with themselves. They took goverment power supporting PIS in 2005 PIS, gave them extra privileges, now even after smolensk catastrophy, catolic church loses influence in poland and they're struggling every way they can.
gumishuThreads: 17
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 Apr 15, 11, 16:55    #9
NrthPznnDvsn:
in 2005 PIS, gave them extra privileges,


what sort of privileges PiS gave to the RCC in 2005 ???

RCC enjoyed privileges since 1989 (and it still does)- it was a bribe - even SLD government bribed the RCC - we should end with these privileges - I am not defending the RCC by no means - and if there was anything wrong with the Komisja Majątkowa it should be corrected and people brought to justice (but there is so much nasty stuff around even SLD may back down from thoroughly investigating Komisja Majątkowa case)
NrthPznnDvsnThreads: 1
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 Apr 15, 11, 17:01    #10
gumishu:
what sort of privileges PiS gave to the RCC in 2005

obligatory religion in school for example?
gumishuThreads: 17
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 Apr 15, 11, 17:14    #11
NrthPznnDvsn:
obligatory religion in school for example?


what do you mean? I only heard about projects to put the final mark of 'religion' subject on the yearly school certificate and it was Mr Giertych who was the author
I was quite sure that religion was not and is not obligatory
HarryThreads: 62
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 Apr 15, 11, 17:20    #12
gumishu:
I was quite sure that religion was not and is not obligatory

Officially it isn't. However, schools sometimes put pressure on kids to go to RE classes. For example, a high school I know of has alternative classes to RE only at 8 o'clock on a Friday evening. A primary school I know of had a Christmas party and told the mother of only kid who doesn't go to RE classes that the kid was not permitted to attend.
gumishuThreads: 17
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 Apr 15, 11, 17:29    #13
Harry - I am very much for banning of (at least institutionalized) religion lessons from school - I used to go to church for such when I was a kid - btw from my observation and my feeling the RCC only hurts itself in having these religion classes - I don't mind the RCC going tumbling down - sadly belief in the Christ suffers
warszawskiThreads: 60
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 Apr 15, 11, 18:00    #14
Harry:
However, schools sometimes put pressure on kids to go to RE classes. For example, a high school I know of has alternative classes to RE only at 8 o'clock on a Friday evening


You are going to find it very difficult to find a teacher in a Polish state school at 8pm on a Friday evening. If the family of a child chooses to withdraw the child from RE classes the school will oblige.

Harry:
A primary school I know of had a Christmas party and told the mother of only kid who doesn't go to RE classes that the kid was not permitted to attend.


I do not see a problem with that, if the child chooses not to be part of the RE curriculum then why would he/she want to be part of Easter/Christmas celebrations. The Easter/Christmas are religious celebrations, it is not about Chocolate eggs and presents.
HarryThreads: 62
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 Apr 15, 11, 18:07    #15
warszawski:
You are going to find it very difficult to find a teacher in a Polish state school at 8pm on a Friday evening.

Want me to give the address of one?

warszawski:
The Easter/Christmas are religious celebrations, it is not about Chocolate eggs and presents.

Oh yeah? In which world are you living?
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
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 Apr 15, 11, 18:47    #16
JonnyM:
I remember a case (that was only picked up by Fakty i Mity) about a lady who walked in on her 10 year old son being raped by a priest, who was filming the abuse. This was in rural Poland. Of course she went to the police. They suddenly stopped investigating, released the priest who simply vanished and wouldn't discuss it further with the woman.


Aren't you too old to believe in urban legends ?
JonnyMThreads: 16
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Edited by: JonnyM  Apr 15, 11, 19:36    #17
Grzegorz_:

too old to believe in urban legends ?

Not too old to believe a report with direct quotes (including from the police), names, dates, locations. Check it out from your collection of back issues, fat boy.
FUZZYWICKETSThreads: 12
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 Apr 15, 11, 21:06    #18
Grzegorz_ wrote:

Aren't you too old to believe in urban legends ?

there are thousands of parents in this world who were foolish enough to think it was an urban legend as well. they found out the hard way.
warszawskiThreads: 60
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 Apr 15, 11, 21:27    #19
Harry:
Oh yeah? In which world are you living?


I am of the opinion that it is very black and white. If parents chooses not to enroll their child into RE classes, that means they are not involved with all activities associated to the RE curriculum, inc Holy communion and religious Celebrations. Why would a teacher take the risk of involving a child in religious activities, when the Parent has given clear instructions not to.
ShortHairThugThreads: -
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 Apr 15, 11, 21:55    #20
JonnyM:
I remember a case (that was only picked up by Fakty i Mity)

Fakty i Mity whose sole purpose is to discredit Church, this fact on its own should be a clue as to how much of what’s published there is to be taken seriously besides if you believe this story then you really don’t know the furry and the rage of a Polish mother who would move heaven and earth and no earthly institution be it the highest levels of government, Church or Vatican itself would stop her from justice being served if such incident ever accrued.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Apr 15, 11, 21:58    #21
ShortHairThug:
Fakty i Mity whose sole purpose is to discredit Church,

Which is why they published it.
ShortHairThug:
you really don’t know the furry and the rage of a Polish mother who would move heaven and earth

She did go to the police then to the media.
ShortHairThug:
no earthly institution be it the highest levels of government, Church or Vatican itself would stop her from justice being served if such incident ever accrued.

What are you smoking?
ShortHairThugThreads: -
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 Apr 15, 11, 22:13    #22
JonnyM:
She did go to the police then to the media.

We come back full circle then, according to Fakty I Mity and no one else.
JonnyM:
What are you smoking?

Well you never had a Polish mother so it’s only understandable that you have no idea of what I’m talking about.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Apr 15, 11, 22:16    #23
ShortHairThug:
We come back full circle then, according to Fakty I Mity and no one else.

And what? The police commented.
As for the poor lady, she did what she could with what she had available. But she and her son were still victims of religion gone wrong.
ShortHairThugThreads: -
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 Apr 15, 11, 22:23    #24
JonnyM:
And what? The police commented.

As printed in the article yet never verified by independent source. The poor lady would have organized a lynch mob and the villagers would have chased the Munster out of the village, don’t you watch the movies? The villagers are not as dumb as you think they are, they take care of their own and no one stands in their way.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Apr 15, 11, 22:27    #25
ShortHairThug:
The poor lady would have organized a lynch mob and the villagers would have chased the Munster out of the village, don’t you watch the movies?

No doubt with flaming torches.
ShortHairThug:
The villagers are not as dumb as you think they are, they take care of their own and no one stands in their way.

Even when the guy had left. Tricky that.

Anyway, what do you think about clerical child abuse in Poland?
ShortHairThugThreads: -
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 Apr 15, 11, 22:38    #26
JonnyM:
Even when the guy had left. Tricky that.

Kind of like in the movie Next of Kin, they would sand someone after his a**.
JonnyM:
Anyway, what do you think about clerical child abuse in Poland?

I’m sure it happens from time to time like everywhere else after all it’s a perfect hiding place for perverts but I find that more of them get romantically involved with a woman eventually leaving the church anyway. Having said that it does not change the way I view the institution itself. If one is proven of the crime against a minor hang him high I’ll say.
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Apr 15, 11, 22:42    #27
ShortHairThug:
Kind of like in the movie Next of Kin, they would sand someone after his a**.

You'd hope so. I know I would.
ShortHairThug:
more of them get romantically involved with a woman eventually leaving the church anyway.

Many do, and a lot are gay which gives them an instant social circle - there's quite a clique in every diocese.

A lot of the issue is how the church responds to incidents of abuse - there seems to be a bit of an ostrich mentality, and what is worse, there is a feeling that the church as an institution is somehow above the law of the land.
ShortHairThugThreads: -
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Edited by: ShortHairThug  Apr 15, 11, 22:53    #28
JonnyM:
there seems to be a bit of an ostrich mentality, and what is worse, there is a feeling that the church as an institution is somehow above the law of the land.

You have a wrong perception, when I was a kid and yes it’s a rural setting a priest got involved with a local widow which quickly became known to everyone. To make the long story short he was forced to resign from the priesthood and he did marry her in the church he served, shortly after that they left to start a new life somewhere else and no one ever ostracized them. **** happens and even the villagers can be forgiving but if that was a chilled or an underage girl this story would not have a happy ending for the priest, I’m quite sure of that
JonnyMThreads: 16
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 Apr 15, 11, 23:00    #29
ShortHairThug:
no one ever ostracized them. **** happens and even the villagers can be forgiving

They do occasionally get rejected by the parishioners. Not often, but it happens even in Poland.
ShortHairThug:
if that was a chilled or an underage girl this story would not have a happy ending for the priest, I’m quite sure of that

You're too optimistic. The issue that's cropping up round the world is that the church just move them when there's a hint of scandal. And the Paetz thing was happening for a long long time before anyone spoke up. Fr Jankowski only hit the papers with the rent boy/drugs scandal because he was so politicised. The tip of the iceberg, sadly.
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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 Apr 15, 11, 23:07    #30
JonnyM:
The issue that's cropping up round the world is that the church just move them when there's a hint of scandal


Indeed, or simply ignore it - like what happened in Scotland and Ireland. Of course, we all know how that story ended.

The recent noises coming out of the Vatican suggest that the institution really is suffering from the "spoiled old men" complex.


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