What Ukrainian vote outcome is best for Poland?

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Jan 17, 10, 11:50 #1

Jews always view reality through the prism of 'will it be good for Jews', so emulating that train of thought, whose win in Ukraine's presidential poll will be best for Poland?
Incidentally, Gazeta Wyborcza (http://wyborcza.pl/0,0.html) reports an election joke saying that: there are two solutions to the Ukrainian cirsis: a realistic one and an unrealistic one. The unrealistic one is that Ukrainians will overcome it themselves, the realistic one is that Martians will come down and set things right.
In late-PRL, a similar story went round, except it gave the choice of a natural and sueprnatural solution to Poland's ills: the natural one is that a legion of angels will come
down from heaven and solve the problems; the supernatural one is that Poles will pull together and buckle down to hard work until their problems are solved.

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Edited by: McCoy Jan 17, 10, 12:58 #2

if people in Ukraine dont care about their elections and the future of democracy i dont think that avarage man from Poland or the rest of Europe has a knowledge to even say who are the candidates and whats the best choice ( except of that it would be good if it was a pro-EU man ). today on the news they said that some man has changed his last name into 'againstall'. if they feel that everyone from the list is greedy corrupted mofo the future of the countrys aint bright. even the most serious canditates feed people with the ridiculous promises - Timoshenko: Ukraine in EU in 5 years. Big fcukin ROTFL. People are embittered and tired. they dont know who to trust. they are selling their votes for 40 - 60 $. and the future leaders who promise the democracy are buing them.

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Jan 17, 10, 15:24 #3

The problem is that most Ukrainians are tired of promises. They had great hopes with the orange revolution, unfortunately nothing has happened; the contrary, they are worse off. For this reason Yanukovych will probably be president. He is pro Russia and to be honest that is what most of Ukraine now feel happy with this idea. "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't" Radical change has let them down, (through their own corrupt system) now they just want peace of mind as they had before. Cheap gas, jobs and reasonably priced food…just like everyone else.

I don’t know how it will affect Poland, we will have to wait and see how Yanukovych will play his cards with the EU, Russia NATO and various internal disputes within the Ukraine itself. One thing is for sure, whatever the outcome they have an uphill struggle of an incalculable magnitude. Ukraine has weathered worst before, so I’m sure at some point in the future all the wrongs committed before will be righted… I hope so for their sake.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jan 17, 10, 15:51 #4
I don't know about it hence my question? Is ethnicity an issue? I've read even as most russian Ukrainians prefer Moscow...what about the ukrainian Ukrainians?

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Edited by: Floripa Jan 17, 10, 16:24 #5

Very much so.

Most of western Ukraine is pro Europe while eastern Ukraine is pro Russia. I know some Ukraine’s who will only speak Russian and I also know others that defend their own Ukrainian culture. This is the problem now, times are so hard there that many look to Russia to solve the problem that the EU couldn’t or at least the Orange Revolution couldn't….And as we know Russia wants Ukraine; it sees it as something sovereign. I’m English, although my company worked there for 3 years, so I know a little about the problems they have. But unfortunately they have real identity problems.

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Jan 17, 10, 17:10 #6

Bratwurst Boy:

Is ethnicity an issue?

It's always an issue and Ukraine makes no exception here.
About 20% of the Ukrainian population are Russians and fore sure they looks with a lot of sympathy at Russia.

Floripa:

Most of western Ukraine is pro Europe while eastern Ukraine is pro Russia. I know some Ukraine’s who will only speak Russian and I also know others that defend their own Ukrainian culture.

First, what does it mean "West" and "East" in your statement ?
If "West" is Lviv, Ivano-Frankovsk, Ternopil and the East Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkiv then I can agree with you.
But what about Kiev, Sumy, Cherkassi, Poltava etc.?

The language is for sure not some main political issue and many Russian speaking regions voted "orange".
And again, voting for orange didn't mean to be totally anti-Russian !

Russian is a native tongue to many Ukrainians what does not change their Ukrainian patriotism and feelings.

Moreover there are some people there called sovoks (sovki) without particular national feelings.
What about them ?

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Jan 17, 10, 17:39 #7

Borrka

I'm sorry but I don’t presume to know exactly what the problems are in Ukraine. As I said before, I’m English with some knowledge of the situation. I just know what I perceived while I worked there and from those people I still have contact. The language is not a problem issue; however there are factions for example that don’t want Russian spoken on TV and other public Medias. This creates huge frictions within certain groups. Yes there were pro Russians that voted orange but now they see that dream has eroded and they want what they had before.

You must agree that Ukraine is in turmoil, and for this reason I think they are voting for not who they want, but for rather who they don’t want. This as you can understand is not the way to proceed given the circumstances. I have a great admiration for all Ukraine’s and their country, but it makes me so sad to see them in such a deplorable situation given the opportunities that some politicians were given.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂	Jan 17, 10, 18:13 #8
Bratwurst Boy: I don't know about it hence my question? Is ethnicity an issue? Looks like not as much as 5 years ago when there was very clear east/west division in politics...

SwitekThreads: 1 Posts: 66 Joined: May 28, 09 ♂	Jan 17, 10, 19:10 #9
All I wish for Ukraine is wellness, stability and peace. I do not care whether they will choose pro Kremlin / anti Western or anti Kremlin / pro Western option. Even pro Russian stability is better for Ukraine right now than not certain pro western alliance.

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Jan 17, 10, 19:31 #10

Polonius3:

Jews always view reality through the prism of 'will it be good for Jews', so emulating that train of thought, whose win in Ukraine's presidential poll will be best for Poland?

Well, Germans always view reality through the prism of 'will it be good for the Germans, Americans for the Americans, etc. Perfectly normal. Was the Jew reference really nessasary?

Personally, I think that as long as there's a clear winner and the opposite side accepts it it'll be good for Ukraine and thus Poland. I'd prefer Yuschenko (?) or Yulia but the pendulum seems to have swung the other way around this time. We'll see...

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Edited by: Crow Jan 18, 10, 12:35 #11

Poland should do everything possible to support suveregnity of Ukraine, no matter which candidate prevail. Here, Poland should make effort to take much balanced stance on Ukraine then it is official EU/NATO selfish attitude. Poland shouldn`t repeat mistakes from Balkan if wants to present itself as serious state in international community, state with its own interests

Anyway, you know when were last time Ukrainians seen united?

Serbian question is the rare thing that still connects deepest feelings of ALL Ukrainians. Don`t underestimate negative impact on Ukrainian position regarding NATO integrations because of NATO/EU policy on Serbs. Too much Ukrainians (same as Poles and Russians) died for liberation of Serbs from Ottomans and they aren`t happy to see how NATO/EU reversing Serbian (Slavic) victories into disasters, creating new Muslim states on Serbian ground.

Even first steps of Ukrainian democratization were made thanks to Serbian OTPOR (RESISTANCE)

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Edited by: Sasha Jan 18, 10, 14:05 #12

Floripa:

He is pro Russia

I don't think he is or I would better say it's not about pro- or anti-Russianness of either candidate. Russians are pretty sure that the guideline attitude will stay the same and which candidate would become president is of no importance for Poland thereof. Janukovic might lead up to Russia in order to draw some votes of pro-Russian electorate (not necessarily Russians, or moreover mostly non-Russians) but he won't dare after all to perform any serious changes in policy.

Borrka:

About 20% of the Ukrainian population are Russians and fore sure they looks with a lot of sympathy at Russia.

Never say "for sure". Here it looks like you want to stir things up. There're lots of Russians who practically say "leave Ukrainians alone" and I'm for one with them.

Floripa:

Yes there were pro Russians that voted orange but now they see that dream has eroded and they want what they had before.

You must agree that Ukraine is in turmoil, and for this reason I think they are voting for not who they want, but for rather who they don’t want.

Very true!

Bratwurst Boy:

Is ethnicity an issue?

Rather turn of mind than that.

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Jan 19, 10, 11:20 #13

The best outcome would be fair elections. The second thing would be candidate who can deal with corruption but it seems that none of them can, because it is still to deeply ingrained and they have all those oligarchy behind them. I think this two problems alone are crucial to future of Ukraine: fairness of public life and eradication of corruption. Without those two nobody really can identify with the state. The state is the issue here. Because of nationality mix Ukrainians cann't identify only with nation (like Poles for example), they need law-abiding state they can be part of. Look at Switzerland, there are French regions, there are German regions, but this is not a problem because they have a state they trust in.
Of course from Poland point of view the best is candidate pro EU oriented simply because economy, security and stability issues. But in the same time it cann't be someone who in pursuit toward the west violates internal cohesion of Ukrainian society.
Last but not least, I hope that next Ukrainian president will successfully support EURO2012 project wich is common Polish-Ukriainian venture.

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Edited by: Crow Jan 19, 10, 11:26 #14

Sasha:

There're lots of Russians who practically say "leave Ukrainians alone" and I'm for one with them.

Good attitude. Ukraine realy needs all understandings from neighboring Slavic countries.

Floripa:

Ukraine is in turmoil

exactly

Floripa:

Most of western Ukraine is pro Europe while eastern Ukraine is pro Russia.

here we must be carefull

EU doesn`t have exclusive rights on term `Europe`. As some likes to say- `only being part of EU means being part of Europe`. Its incorrect.

Geographicaly, Ukraine is in Europe. There are also European parts of Russia. Not to mention that fundamentaly, EU isn`t based on Western heritage. EU only have money, at least currently.

jwojcie:

The best outcome would be fair elections.

true

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 871 Joined: Jul 27, 08 ♂	Jan 19, 10, 11:39 #15
Polonius3: Jews always view reality through the prism of 'will it be good for Jews' skysoulmate: Was the Jew reference really nessasary? "Imitation is the highest form of flattery." Thank you Polonius.

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Jan 19, 10, 12:02 #16

Polonius3:

'will it be good for Jews', so emulating that train of thought

If, in any country, the situation is 'good for the Jews', then that country is on the right track, because if a minority within that country is ok - and not only Jews, but others, of course - then you can be sure human rights are being respected, sane, decent people are in government, there is the possibility of equality, etc, etc. The treatment of a country's minorities is a good litmus test for how stable and democratic that country is. So Polonius makes a good point - but perhaps not in the way intended :-P

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Edited by: Crow Jan 19, 10, 13:48 #17

Rogalski:

The treatment of a country's minorities is a good litmus test for how stable and democratic that country is. So Polonius makes a good point - but perhaps not in the way intended :-P

but, what does it matter. Stability of some country doesn`t neceserely depend on internal relations inside of that particular country.

EU and NATO powers always found way to destabilize targeted country. Reagularly, reasons for targeting some country depend of EU and NATO (leading countries there) strategic interests, not on the level of tolerance and democratization of country that is target.

Similar behavior (syndrom of `world policeman`) in international community demonstrated Soviet Union and other historicaly remembered `Empires`.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jan 19, 10, 14:42 #18

Rogalski:

If, in any country, the situation is 'good for the Jews', then that country is on the right track,

Well...that might have been true earlier as the Jews were everywhere are home less minority.
But Jews today have a homeland too...a country of their own!
So if a pro-Israel jewish minority is happy because they lobbied the host country to be Israel-friendly it's true that this is good for them but it doesn't mean it's automatically a litmus test for the host country.
Especially if the native majority thinks otherwise.

That on the other hand is a prime recipe for further turmoil and distrust and unrest between the jewish minority and the non-jewish majority, said minority becomes rather a "fifth column" for a foreign country...also absolutely NOT GOOD!

PS: The differences and problems Israel itself has with their arab minority wouldn't put it in a rosy light itself if we would follow your theory, wouldn't it...
Here also alot of jewish Israelis distrust them and often humiliate and abuse them because of their affinity to the Palestinians!
(Even their official MK's in the Knesset)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFu ll&cid=1262339375381

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFu ll&cid=1249418591229

Not to mention the ethopian olim who are seemingly the bottom of Israeli society and often treated quite openly racist.

I doubt you would say that: "In any country the situation is 'good for the Ethopians', then that country is on the right track"

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Edited by: Mr Grunwald Jan 20, 10, 02:41 #19

skysoulmate:

Was the Jew reference really nessasary?

I know your trying to be ignorent and don't want to read books but please grab a book about Jews and look how long they have been in Poland!
Then you will understand that many Poles refer to them in ways that seems normal and ok and not anti-semitic to Poles while only anti-semites in vervious other countries use the same method all the time.

yehudi:

"Imitation is the highest form of flattery."
Thank you Polonius.

I also think that, the Yugoslavic Hymn for instance :)
( I HAVE NO IDEA WHY SO MANY POLES ARE BETTING FUZZY ABOUT IT GRRR!!!!)

bravoThreads: 4 Posts: 101 Joined: Dec 9, 09 ♂	Jan 20, 10, 03:21 #20
Polonius3: Jews always view reality through the prism of 'will it be good for Jews', Stupid statement

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Jan 20, 10, 06:26 #21

Polonius3:

Jews always view reality through the prism of 'will it be good for Jews'

Smart people. Though it is really hard to find people of other nationalities thinking otherwise.

Even though neither of the two candidates are even close to be optimal for Ukraine and as a consequence for Poland's benefit, with Tymoshenko I see slow, but nevertheless, movement towards Europe. Relations with Poland on a social, cultural or any other soul-related issues will be the same (open and respectful) no matter who will become a president. But on the level of business relations and possibilities of furthering economical ties Yanukovych will be a disaster, in my opinion. So Tymoshenko seems to be more beneficial for Poland. Some say that Ukrainians are not united, separated, split...It is not true. There are different points of view on what is best for the country and its people. Eastern regions of Ukraine went through the roughest possible historical events ever, drained of spirit, bright minds and hard-working people. Forced Russian settlers from the times of Soviet Union, which form over 22% of the total population, made possible stalemates in every election since 1991. Yanukovych, who received 35% support in the 1st round, no doubt got the first 22% from Russian voters. Support for Tymoshenko is the greatest in 16 out of 25 regions of Ukraine, which makes 64% of the country. And it means something. The 2nd round will be close and either winner will gain by a hair, I think. Since Tymoshenko and her allies have slightly more vote power in the parliement, being a president and having an opprtunity to put a prime minister in the chair can make a good unifying force to concentrate the country on the huge economic problems Ukraine is facing. This will be a good outcome for Poland as a trading partner and a neighbor.

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Jan 20, 10, 07:03 #22

Nathan:

Forced Russian settlers from the times of Soviet Union

Who "forced" them to settle down there? So you're saying that practically all Russians or those who identify themselves with Russian people are forced settlers, right?

Nathan:

which form over 22% of the total population, made possible stalemates in every election since 1991

Esli v krane net vodi, vodu vipili zhidi. If there's no water in a faucet, then most likely those were Jews who drank it all". That reminds me of this saying but applied to the Russians.

Nathan:

Yanukovych, who received 35% support in the 1st round, no doubt got the first 22% from Russian voters.

It's technically impossible. Since the total turnout was about 67%, "Russian" voters (in other words those who you obviously want to push all the blame on) in the best case scenario could bring to Janukovic no more than 15% of all votes. Besides I find your "no doubt" sentiment completely ridiculous, as I don't see any reason for that they'll all support Janukovic except for your generally unhealthy approach towards anything Russian.

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Jan 20, 10, 12:17 #23

Bratwurst Boy:

I doubt you would say that: "In any country the situation is 'good for the Ethopians', then that country is on the right track"

If it had an Ethopian minority, then yes I would.

And it is unwise to treat diasporic Jewish communities as monoliths. There will be supporters of Israel in such communities - but also harsh critics. So the 'fifth column' argument doesn't really hold water. Such arguments were used in the past when the state of Israel didn't exist, so we are looking at something deeper than mere political allegiance (or alleged allegiance) here.

I don't think there is any significant Jewish population in Poland, persuading the government to be pro-Israeli, and yet the government largely is. So, the 'Jewish lobby' argument doesn't hold water either.

I agree with you that Israel, as a relatively young democracy, needs to sort out its position with regards to its minority population. Just as many other countries need to do.

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Jan 20, 10, 13:28 #24

Rogalski:

I agree with you that Israel, as a relatively young democracy, needs to sort out its position with regards to its minority population. Just as many other countries need to do.

It's not just that our democracy is young but that this minority (at least it's political representatives in the Knesset) openly identifies with the enemy that fights against us. Ahmed Tibi, for example, was a personal advisor to Yassir Arafat and at the same time a member of the Israeli Knesset! No normal democracy would allow such an obvious 5th column to operate so freely. It's because we're a young democracy and not yet sure of ourselves that we tolerate this. A country more confident in its democracy, like say the US, wouldn't stand for it.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Jan 20, 10, 14:02 #25
yehudi: A country more confident in its democracy, like say the US, wouldn't stand for it. Well...what do you think AIPAC is doing all these years???? ;)

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Edited by: Crow Jan 20, 10, 15:13 #26

i clearly see Polish-Ukrainian-Serbian alliance

Most probably it would go via Vishegrad group. i coming to that conclusion having in mind recent Polish-Czech innitiative (inside of Vishegrad group) to strenghten relations with Serbia.

NATO isn`t acceptable to Serbia, for all sorts of reasons. Vishegrad group could be acceptable. If Serbia enter into Vishegrad group, guaranteed- Ukraine would follow. Similar formula that is acceptable to Serbia, could easely proved to be only resonable formula to Ukraine. Satisfaction for her interests in Ukraine, Poland would found via Serbia.

So simple, Polish action regarding Ukraine must be very balanced, carefull and Poland should hesitate to `agrasively` suggests solutions. Of course, all this because of neighboring Russia, internal Ukrainian situation and because of intentions of some other European powers and forces.

On the other side, Russia is vulnerable on Balkan. Ethnic map/religuos situation there is somewhat similar to Ukrainian situation. But, i didn`t underline Russian vulnerabilty on Balkan in order to suggest that Poles oppose them there. No, it isn`t the way. It isn`t even necesery. Serbs themselves never alowed domination of Russian interesst but (!), neither the German or Islamic interests. That`s why Serbs are problem. They are too stubborn and independant ethos in very volatile region that is target of powers.

Poland should rather offer cooperation to Russia on Balkan and coordinate with Serbia to repel German/islamic pressure. If Russian aim on Balkan could be same as Polish (that is Balkan free of German/Islamic domination), why Poland and Russia wouldn`t cooperate. After all, if Poland fails to coordinate with Russia in a strategic zone of common interests, Germany would for sure fulfill the gap and offer different solutions to Russia. Let us avoid German solutions, if we can- that i say.

All this having in mind Polish obligations to EU. But, why would Germany present EU interests on Balkan, when Poland could dop it bater and without tensions with Russia. In the same time, islamic interests on Balkan,... they must retreat.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07 ♂	Jan 20, 10, 15:20 #27
Crow: NATO isn`t acceptable to Serbia Serbia isn't acceptable to Europe or NATO unless they radically change a lot of things, not least the extreme nationalism that led to the rape camps in Bosnia and the attacks on Kosovo, and right now nobody is proposing alliances with them.

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Edited by: Crow Jan 20, 10, 15:28 #28

jonni:

Serbia isn't acceptable to Europe or NATO unless they radically change a lot of things, not least the extreme nationalism that led to the rape camps in Bosnia and the attacks on Kosovo, and right now nobody is proposing alliances with them.

?

are you capable to say something sane to audithorium here or you have intention only to spread all possible and impossible BS/lies that were used by EU and NATO in war campaing against Yugoslavia, Serbia as state and other Balkan Serbs?

question remain, jonni

?

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Edited by: Moderator Jan 20, 10, 16:16 #29

Mr Grunwald:

I know your trying to be ignorent and don't want to read books but please grab a book about Jews and look how long they have been in Poland!
Then you will understand that many Poles refer to them in ways that seems normal and ok and not anti-semitic to Poles while only anti-semites in vervious other countries use the same method all the time.

Dear Norsk Gutt/Jente,

Technically it's impossible to "try to be ignorant" - a person either is or is not.

Thank you for your advice on grabbing books; will do that just for you. I did study history in Sweden and maybe if you grab some of your books you'll realize that the Jews weren't always treated fairly in Poland but also in many other countries, including Scandinavia.

Just follow this thread:

http://www.polishforums.com/news-politics-4/polish-hatred-towards-jews -17728/

You can NEVER be unbiased when you start a sentence by saying "Jews always view reality through the prism of 'will it be good for Jews'"

Even if the person has nothing against the Jews whatsoever.

Imagine if an American, a Brit or a Brasilian (citizens of countries where slavery existed in the past) said "Blacks always view reality through the prism of 'will it be good for the Blacks' so..."

Therefore, even if using such references might "seem normal" it still isn't ok.

Ok, I'll get my books now.

Please keep to the topic

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Jan 21, 10, 04:59 #30

Sasha, I have neither unhealthy, nor any other approach to the Russians. The only thing nowadays that really bothers me is the constant pain in the butt the Russians are in my country. Being the biggest minority, your people uncessantly cry out for help to your mama because your language is somehow "suppressed" in Ukraine. When the Russian movies were started being subtitled! in Ukrainian, you once again showed who you are. Tears and protests were everywhere. Current minister of Education and Science - Iwan Vakarchuk - is making great steps in implementing gradually Ukrainian in all high education institutions. Gradual implementation (which also was bad for "eastern einsteins") is not because of Polish, Romanian, Turkish or Greek ethnicity people, whom complains you won't hear regarding Ukrainian "barbaric linguistical methods", but specifically for Russians who are so dumb that to learn Ukrainian seems so outrageously difficult. But when you see these double-faced people in Europe - wow - they will talk with no accent any not even remotedly related to the Russian languages. They even dare to talk about "forced Ukrainization" in Ukraine!!! the fact that they have to learn the state language!!! Where else in the world have you seen anything like that? And does it stop on the language only?!
I blame first of all myself before making any accusations in the foreign camp, but the Russians are pushing the envelope with drawing my country towards the pigsty they used to live themselves in. It won't happen, but instead of several decades to reach decent level, it will, unfortunately, take much longer.

And here an answer to your question:

The territory of Ukraine was a battlefield during the World War II, and its population, including Russians, significantly decreased. The infrastructure was heavily damaged and it required human and capital resources to be rebuilt. This compounded with depopulation caused by two famines of 1931-1932 and a third in 1947 to leave the territory with a greatly reduced population. A large portion of the wave of new migrants to industrialize, integrate and Sovietize the recently acquired western Ukrainian territories were ethnic Russians who mostly settled around industrial centers and military garrisons.[14] This increased the proportion of the Russian speaking population.

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