Unbelievable but, its truth. Poland is finally happy to share border with Russia

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER ♂	Jun 18, 10, 09:12 #31
Crow: Poland is great hope to me Why not Russia? I mean, we are Latin/Slavic civilization country, with overwhelming Roman Catholic majority and western-like political and economic solutions. Russia with their Orthodox faith and other eastern characteristics is more "hardcore Slavic" than Poland. Why do you insist on Poland, Crow?

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Jun 18, 10, 09:17 #32

Torq, what is the essential difference between Orthodox and RC to you? Can't you just say they are both Christians? I mean, look at Poland's relationship with Latvia and then with Lithuania. Latvia is FAR less Catholic than Lithuania but Poles seem to feel better in Latvia. There is strife with Lithuania.

Religion should not be a divider, esp given that the essence of the belief is the same. Let the finer details be thrashed out by theologians.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Jun 18, 10, 09:21 #33

Seanus:

Torq, what is the essential difference between Orthodox and RC to you?

Cultural difference. Go to interior Russia or Ukraine and to interior Poland or Czech Republic.
Live there for a couple of years and you will understand the difference. Same people
basically, same race, similar languages - only different religion.

Seanus:

Latvia is FAR less Catholic than Lithuania but Poles seem to feel better in Latvia. There is strife with Lithuania.

More historical issues with Lithuania than with Latvia. Nothing to do with religion.

Seanus:

Religion should not be a divider

Of course it shouldn't. I only meant that Orthodox faith is much more common
for Slavs than Catholic religion (look at the sheer numbers of Catholic Slavs
and Orthodox Slavs).

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 09:27 #34
Sorry, that didn't explain it well enough to me :( What beliefs are different? What is the ethos of each? But religion cannot apply when convenient and be ignored when not. Well, true, but Croatians are Catholic so that ups the numbers. Again, you haven't drawn the demarcation/dichotomy between the 2 religions. To me, I just see Christians.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 09:30 #35
Basically it is places under germanic influence,places under byzantine ottoman influence and Russia.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jun 18, 10, 09:32 #36
Torq: Why not Russia? Russia, too. From Serbian perspective, from our historic experience, we could always rely on both- Poland and Russia.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,955 Joined: May 17, 07 ♂	Edited by: southern Jun 18, 10, 09:34 #37
I believe that slavic identity is far more important than any religious division.The psyche and appearance of Slavs is everywhere the same.The culture differs due to different degrees of germanic(western) influence.

MEMBER ♂

Edited by: Torq Jun 18, 10, 09:39 #38

Seanus:

Well, true, but Croatians are Catholic so that ups the numbers.

Croatia is a tiny state, just as Slovenia or Slovakia. Czechs are practically atheist
and the rest of the Slavic world (Ukraine, Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Belarus) is in
overwhelming majority Orthodox.

Seanus:

What beliefs are different? What is the ethos of each?

I can see that you are really interested in the issues, Seanus, and, as your Polish
is very good, I would reccomend you the books of professor Koneczny on various
types of civilizations and how they were influenced by religion ("Polskie Logos a Ethos",
"O wielości cywilizacyj", "Państwo i prawo w Cywilizacji Łacińskiej" and others).

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feliks_Koneczny#Literatura_o_Konecznym_i_ jego_tw.C3.B3rczo.C5.9Bci

jedenThreads: - Posts: 297 Joined: Nov 30, 09 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 10:56 #39
It`s no about religion. It`s about the fact that Russia still traets Poland like her property. Russians don`t like us even hate us, and we also have not positive feelings toward them. After 120 years dependence, and two world wars we can`t trust Russians. My grandpa always says: "Don`t trust Russians their, words are load of ****!" ( i don`t know is it proper english).

VelundThreads: 1 Posts: 417 Joined: Apr 10, 10 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 16:45 #40
jeden: "Don`t trust Russians their, words are load of ****!" ( i don`t know is it proper english). Hm... Not original, of course... Pushkin written many, many years ago... Не верю чести игрока, Любви к России поляка, Не верю я французской дружбе И бескорыстью немцев в службе. Will not even try to translate. ;)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 16:57 #41
Thanks, Torq. I'll have a gander later :) Happy to share a border with the very place which threatened to fire missiles at you, super! Schizophrenia galore ;)

jedenThreads: - Posts: 297 Joined: Nov 30, 09 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 17:46 #42
Hm... Not original, of course... This opinion described feelings toward russian goverment ( Tsar, Communists etc.) and soldiers Ofc not. Opinion shared by majority of society can`t be original...

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Jun 18, 10, 18:48 #43

Velund:

Не верю чести игрока,
Любви к России поляка,
Не верю я французской дружбе
И бескорыстью немцев в службе.

Will not even try to translate. ;)

And I'll give it a try if you don't mind:

I don’t believe in gambler’s sincerity
Nor Polish love towards a Russian
I do not trust the French amitié
Nor selfless service of a Prussian*.

* - orig. "a German"

jeden:

Opinion shared by majority of society can`t be original...

Are saying this

jeden:

Russians don`t like us even hate us, and we also have not positive feelings toward them.

on behalf of majority?

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Jun 18, 10, 18:58 #44

Crow:

even that Visegrad is of Serbian origin

The whole concept of Poland is of Serbian origin, and Poles themselves are descendants of Serbs in a straight line.

And seriously, maybe it was founded by Serbs but now it's completely irrevelant.

Crow:

Torq:
We ARE stubborn and that's exactly why we will always keep our culture and identity.

but, let`s not (all of us) sacrifice Slavija in the name of our own pride

What Slavija? You still don't understand, do you? It's long gone here. As for Poles, we are much more closer mentally to the western Europe than the eastern. Besides, I will never fraternise with deceitful Russia or these savages Ukrainians and Lithuanians, who can't stand us because of their inferiority complex towards us. The Stepan Bandera stadium is not only incident. Not long time ago they claimed Copernicus was Ukrainian. It was funny, but on the other hand, embarassing. Because only losers do such things. Losers without their own history.

jeden:

It`s about the fact that Russia still traets Poland like her property

Exactly. Tsar Alexander once said: Kurica nie ptica, Polsza nie zagranica (Sorry, i can't write in non-latin alphabet). That mentality is still present there, and with Putin saying that dissolution of the SU was the biggest tragedy of the XX century - it's at its best. That's why we should be very careful with Russians - of course i mean politics, not common people (i do not know Russians, but don't have any prejudice against them).

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Edited by: Sasha Jun 18, 10, 19:14 #45

brietter:

Exactly. Tsar Alexander once said: Kurica nie ptica, Polsza nie zagranica (Sorry, i can't write in non-latin alphabet).

A good example of an artificially implanted stereotype.
Firstly this was never said by any of Alexanders (oh... I forgot if it was ever written by a Polish journalist for the internal market that automatically means the truth), secondly this was initially said (and it has been mostly said) about Bulgaria, thirdly it doesn't have a negative connotation you want to embed. The sense of it is either "there's no need to go there since there it is as bad as in the USSR" or "one feels like at home over there".

brietter:

That mentality is still present there, and with Putin saying that dissolution of the SU was the biggest tragedy of the XX century - it's at its best

What sort of mentality are you trying to picture? The collapse of the USSR was indeed a tragedy for most of people in the former SU, since they badly suffered financially. Many drowned grief in wine and never got back.
So what are you eventually trying to say?

brietter:

or these savages Ukrainians and Lithuanians, who can't stand us because of their inferiority complex towards us.

Sorry... but I only noticed that you can't stand them for your superiority complex. :)
Ironically you're gonna be looked down on by those who you "feel closer to". :) That's your choice though...

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Jun 18, 10, 19:34 #46

Sasha:

So what are you eventually trying to say?

Well i'm trying to say that during the times of USSR Poland, alongside with other countries of the so-called "Eastern block" has no sovereignity. Putin seem to miss that good ol' days, isn't he?

And think about it.. of the XX century. So both world wars were not as tragic.
And USSR which killed milions of people indeed must have been good, if the dissolution of it was the biggest tragedy.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 19:42 #47
brietter: Putin seem to miss that good ol' days, isn't he? Taken out of context, you could assume that. He was referring to the balance of power on the world stage and the quality of life for Russian citizens. Sorry, he doesn't really seem to care too much about Poland.

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Jun 18, 10, 19:55 #48

brietter:

And USSR which killed milions of people indeed must have been good, if the dissolution of it was the biggest tragedy.

What does stalin killing people in 30s have to do with people's quality of life in 80s?
Do you seriously believe in that putin miss ethic cleansing/purges?

brietter:

if the dissolution of it was the biggest tragedy.

Can you clearly see the result of the USSR collapse? I can't even though I live in Russia... I know that many people lost their jobs, money, lives, drank themselves to death... but it's only a visible side of the tragedy. Yet the negative oblique impact of that can't assessed... it may or may not be even more tragical. Nobody knows... well.. we don't for sure.

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Jun 18, 10, 20:21 #49

Sasha:

Sorry... but I only noticed that you can't stand them for your superiority complex. :).

Not for my superiority complex, rather for their ingrattitude. I used "savages" to describe my anger.

Sasha:

Ironically you're gonna be looked down on by those who you "feel closer to". :) That's your choice though...

We don't feel closer, we are. We are talking about centuries of influx of western values since maedieval times, such as Roman law, knights ethics, the whole monarchy and other things that formed Europe culturally. As for looking down... well, things could be different if not invention called the Soviet Union..

convex:

Sorry, he doesn't really seem to care too much about Poland.

Of course he doesnt! He just want to have the big empire again.

Sasha:

Do you seriously believe in that putin miss ethic cleansing/purges?

You have said that - I think he's just ruthless. But what can you expect from an ex-KGB agent?

Sasha:

Can you clearly see the result of the USSR collapse? I can't even though I live in Russia...

If you admit that even you can't, how could I? I see your point but generally I don't understand people who miss USSR.. That was an inhumane system.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 20:25 #50
brietter: I see your point but generally I don't understand people who miss USSR.. That was an inhumane system. People look back on the good times. There are plenty of nostalgic Poles...

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Edited by: Crow Jun 18, 10, 21:14 #51

brietter:

The whole concept of Poland is of Serbian origin, and Poles themselves are descendants of Serbs in a straight line.

And seriously, maybe it was founded by Serbs but now it's completely irrevelant.

listen. Even if we accept that, as linguistic science and even legends suggests, Serbians (in Lusatia and Balkan) represent last bearers of original Sarmatian name, we can`t say that Poles originate from Serbs.

If we tend to be absolutely realistic, we could say that common ancestor of Poles and Serbs were some Proto-Slavs that expanded from Balkan to the central and northern Europe along the Danube river. Original name of those Proto-Slavs, in time when their expansion started was based on root SRB and as we know, it was some form of Sarmatian name. So simple, modern day Serbians just preserved that original name as their ethnic name. then, if we accept scientific concept by which Sarmatian and Thracian name represent designations for same ethos, we would have to conclude that many modern day European nations, in their ethnic ancestry belong to those Proto-Slavs (Sarmatians) who started expansion along the Danube from Balkan after Ice age was finished.

Now, considering that population that expanded to the North, in modern day Poland, moved from warmer to the colder climate, population of Balkan (and they themselves) from which they separated started to designate them/itself as LEDJANI/LECH (ice people, people of the north).

See, we originate from same ancestral population but modern day Poles are Poles, Serbs are Serbs. Serbs just preserved in use that original ancestral Sarmatian name. Reflections of origin among Poles is preserved thru Sarmatism. Due to historic/linguistic reasons population in Poland changed name from Sarmatians to the Ledjani/Lechi and Polani/Poles. Considering that population on Balkan didn`t move but stayed on the ancestral ground, people there preserved Sarmatian name in original form (with word SRB in its root).

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Edited by: Sasha Jun 18, 10, 21:17 #52

brietter:

Not for my superiority complex, rather for their ingrattitude. I used "savages" to describe my anger.

The problem here is that your projected your view of small group onto the whole nation(s), which sounded quite arrogant.

brietter:

We don't feel closer, we are. We are talking about centuries of influx of western values since maedieval times

However you successfully contrived to preserve your Slavic features. :) It's still not a problem for me to tell a German from a Pole... how comes? :)

brietter:

As for looking down... well, things could be different if not invention called the Soviet Union..

A lovely statement... the discussion reminds me of a old Soviet anecdote about Caucasians...
Two Caucasians (Georgians, Azerbaijanis or whoever...) came to Moscow. Someone told them they would turn Russians if they climb up a Kremlin tower and touch the star upon it. They certainly believe...
So here they are climbing higher and higher... One of them however managed to reach the top first and touched the star. The other below yelling: "Hey, Abdula... give me a hand!"
The first one responed: "F@ck off, skibby (an offensive term for Orientals)!" and kicked him off down.
You won't be able to shift the blame upon third party every time. :)

brietter:

He just want to have the big empire again.

What makes you feel like that? :) The fact that he's an ex-KGB?

brietter:

I think he's just ruthless

Did he kill anybody or what?

brietter:

If you admit that even you can't, how could I?

You should have cited the latter piece too. I said that one couldn't see at the first glance the whole tragedy. That was my point. Yet you obliquely gave your assessment...

brietter:

That was an inhumane system.

The late USSR was inhumane system? Care to explain which way? Just curious...

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Jun 18, 10, 21:51 #53

Crow:

In these hard times when we all faces great challenges, in time when international law means nothing, when hostile people on all meridians openly show their greed,... i have became aware of one important fact. That is, Poland is finally happy to share border with Russia. i mean, there is much worse things that could happen to Poland in this world then to share border with Russia that finally friendly and brotherly smile on Poland

what other people think about this conclusion of mine?

In my opinion Poland should lay down her weapon and start to make some serious business with russia.

"Forgiveness is the economy of the heart... forgiveness saves the expense of anger, the cost of hatred, the waste of spirits."
Hannah More

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Edited by: Crow Jun 18, 10, 22:40 #54

David_18:

Poland should lay down her weapon and start to make some serious business with russia.

exactly. Business is key word

in situation when Poland make business with Arabs, Germans, Brits, French, USA.... restrictions in business with Serbia, Ukraine, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Russia.... would only mean that somebody outside and inside of Poland insist to pull Poland out from Slavic world.

Who could be that? Answer is very simple. As economist, i must conclude... those with whom today`s official Poland already entered in business. They would want to prevent alternative Polish arrangements.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 22:58 #55
Crow, I have one key question for you. It was Tusk that has taken Poland closer to Russia and Komorowski will extend that. Why be so critical of Tusk when he is trying to heal old wounds?

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Jun 18, 10, 23:18 #56
Seanus: Why be so critical of Tusk when he is trying to heal old wounds? because his policy on Balkan deflect from traditional Polish politics on the region, deflect form Sobieski`s, Warnenchyc`s, Jadwiga`s, etc. approach to Serbians.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 18, 10, 23:22 #57
But maybe Putin and Medvedev will make him change his position somehow? What do you think?

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