There were no Polish Death Camps - Wall St. Journal letter to editor

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May 17, 10, 22:30 #1

I am writing to express my bitter regret at the most unfortunate use of the word "Polish" when referring to a Nazi concentration camp in an otherwise very interesting article ("On Style: Picking the Best of Spring's New Style Books," Personal Journal, May 6). By employing that linguistic shortcut, you succeeded in hurting the feelings of the people whose best sons and daughters were the first to suffer from terrible atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis in 1939.

An extensive system of extermination, concentration, labor and prisoner-of-war camps was built and operated by Nazi Germany…....

http://online.wsj.com/public/page/letters.html

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May 17, 10, 22:44 #2

WSJ Letter:

An extensive system of extermination, concentration, labor and prisoner-of-war camps was built and operated by Nazi Germany. Describing a concentration camp as "Polish," only because it was located on the occupied territory of Poland, is tantamount to indicating that Poland was a participant in the Nazi crime. In reality, my country was Hitler's most brutalized victim with more than six million Polish citizens losing their lives during the war.

Typical media subterfuge to use phrase 'Polish Death Camps'...WSJ Zionist owned/operated (Rupert Murdoch, owner)...NYT uses same 'linguistic shortcuts'...Surprised letter even got printed, even if the it was just an online response.

'Polish Death Camps' used because Zionists still hope to extort money from Poland..."J'Accuse"

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Edited by: PWEl Sep 27, 11, 16:20 #3

Merged: Polish Americans protest against slanderous term "Polish death camps"

Here they are protesting in front of Murdoch's corporation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gNUSsWFvznE
Among them Home Army veterans. Polish American boxer Paweł Wolak is featured in the crowd.
I would like to believe that the insistance to use the word "Polish" to describe German death camps stems just from the fact that Murdoch's jurnalists are unbelievably ignorant (although it's hard to imagine).
Big thank you to Polish-Americans from Poland!

antheadsThreads: 13 Posts: 306 Joined: Jan 21, 11 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 16:36 #4
I think the New York Times or similar had to change its journalist guidelines to stop this happening.

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Sep 27, 11, 16:42 #5

PWEl
I would like to believe that the insistance to use the word "Polish" to describe German death camps stems just from the fact that Murdoch's jurnalists are unbelievably ignorant (although it's hard to imagine).

Not so hard to understand given the shocking lack of attention given to history at schools these days.

Although it isn't just a problem with American schools: many Poles are unaware that while Poland didn't run death camps, it most certainly ran concentration camps, both before and after WWII.

hythornThreads: 6 Posts: 843 Joined: Feb 21, 08 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 16:55 #6
Poland didn't run death camps, it most certainly ran concentration camps, both before and after WWII. a valid point having said that it was the British who invented the concentration camp and no matter how hard Hitler tried, he was not successful in total genocide but the British were clearly not happy with hacking mobile phones News International are upsetting the Polonia way to go Rupert

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 17:01 #7
Łambinowice is an unfortunate scar I'd say. Still, we don't want to exaggerate things we haven't seen.

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Sep 27, 11, 17:01 #8

Here they are protesting in front of Murdoch's corporation:

Wonder when they last, for instance, helped out at a soup kitchen or an orphanage in Poland.

Not so hard to understand given the shocking lack of attention given to history at schools these days.

The Polish approach is insane - do everything in chronological order, and when it comes to dealing with the PRL-era - oh ****, we're outta time.

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Sep 27, 11, 17:03 #9

having said that it was the British who invented the concentration camp

The Spanish actually.

and no matter how hard Hitler tried, he was not successful in total genocide
but the British were

No nationality have ever been "successful" in total genocide, though the Russians and Germans tried. The British never did.

Remember also there's a difference between a concentration camp and a death camp.

My take on the 'Polish death camp' issue is that the confusion is linguistic. For some people, if it's in Poland, it's Polish. For others not. I can understand why some Poles are angry though.

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Sep 27, 11, 17:08 #10

hythorn
having said that it was the British who invented the concentration camp

I see that history lessons in whatever country you are from also leave more than a little something to be desired.

hythorn
and no matter how hard Hitler tried, he was not successful in total genocide but the British were

Really? OK, let's play a game: I'll name languages killed off as a result of the holocaust and then you can name ones killed off by what you claim was British genocide. I'll start: Bohemian Romani. Your turn. Oh, perhaps you need more time to think of one. OK, I'll go again and then you name two: Laiuse Romani. Your turn.

hythornThreads: 6 Posts: 843 Joined: Feb 21, 08 ♂	Edited by: hythorn Sep 27, 11, 17:13 #11
@ Johnny M I believe it was the British who invented the concentration camp during the Boer war. please let me know more about the Spanish concentration camp. I have not heard of this before @PWEI I am talking about genocide meaning the systematic mass murdering of a race of people and you are talking about languages. what next regional dialect genocide?

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Sep 27, 11, 17:17 #12

hythorn
I am talking about genocide meaning the systematic mass murdering of a race of people and you are talking about languages.

If the British had, as you claim been "successful in total genocide", you will have no problem in naming the language which the ethnic groups which were killed off spoke. Unless, of course, you are actually simply displaying your ignorance when you claim that the British ever did such a thing. Or that you're just talking out of your arse.

delphiandomine
Wonder when they last, for instance, helped out at a soup kitchen or an orphanage in Poland.

Hmm, I wonder. Could it by some chance be never?

hythornThreads: 6 Posts: 843 Joined: Feb 21, 08 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 17:22 #13
If the British had, as you claim been "successful in total genocide", you will have no problem in naming the language which the ethnic groups which were killed off spoke. I am not sure that the language was documented as the peoples spoke a variety of different dialects. The Tasmanian aborigine was wiped out by the British every nation has skeletons in their cupboard

antheadsThreads: 13 Posts: 306 Joined: Jan 21, 11 ♂	Edited by: antheads Sep 27, 11, 18:07 #14
Well according to this 190 distinct aboriginal languages were erased as a result of british genocide. Yes the stats can be interpreted diffrently of course.

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Edited by: PWEI Sep 27, 11, 18:13 #15
The Tasmanian aborigine was wiped out by the British The Australian government would disagree with you there. every nation has skeletons in their cupboard There are a good number of plastic Poles here who are most insistent in their disagreement with that statement. As for Antheads, I think you will find those were Australians: Australia as it is now was made by Australians.

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Edited by: JonnyM Sep 27, 11, 18:17 #16

please let me know more about the Spanish concentration camp. I have not heard of this before

During the Ten Years War, the Spanish were using them in Cuba, and the Americans also used both in the Phillipines and for native Americans. All three of these sad events predate the Boer War. The name (and concept) come from the Spanish reconcentrado.

The Tasmanian aborigine was wiped out by the British

Many certainly died - especially from 'European' diseases for which they had no immunity, however there are aboriginal Tasmanians alive today and they are gradually reasserting their rights to land ownership. I understand there are Amerindian tribes that were victims of total genocide - some more recently than most people would like to think.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 18:21 #17
There really needs to be factual accuracy. Poles did much to help the Jews and wild allegations get us nowhere. Unfortunately, many Jews now think smear sh&t on the walls of Polish hotels as they believe that many Poles were complicit in the killings. Never has the verstehen approach been more needed.

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09 ♂	Edited by: TheOther Sep 27, 11, 18:29 #18
PWEI: The Australian government would disagree with you there. Depends on how you look at it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War

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Sep 27, 11, 18:32 #19

There really needs to be factual accuracy. Poles did much to help the Jews and wild allegations get us nowhere. Unfortunately, many Jews now think smear sh&t on the walls of Polish hotels as they believe that many Poles were complicit in the killings. Never has the verstehen approach been more needed.

Some Poles helped Jews. Some Poles took an active part in the Holocaust. Some Poles murdered Jews who survived the Holocaust. To forget any of those facts is regretable. To deny them is indefensible. At to what "many Jews" do, how many? You tell us that it is many, so you must know how many it is.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 18:34 #20
Ask the Kraków hotel authorities, they are looking for people like you to impart info to.

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 18:40 #21
Ask the Kraków hotel authorities, they are looking for people like you to impart info to. No, you are the one making the claim here: so you need to support it. As for 'people like me' despite writing about (which clearly involves also researching) Poland for more than a decade, I've never once seen any numbers or even on the record allegations which would support your claims.

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Edited by: PWEl Sep 27, 11, 18:48 #22

Some Jews took active part in the genocide of Poles under Soviet rule, during and after the war. Knowing the extent of Jewish complicity in stalinism in Poland - in particular higher ranks, we could as well refer to the concentration camps in stalinist Poland as "Jewish concentration camps" - that in fact would be far more accurate than using the term "Polish concentration camps" when referring to German nazi camps.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 18:49 #23
As I said, ask the Kraków hotel authorities as they are best placed to tell you. It was they who commented in an article some time back. I think the figures may have been distorted but they are better placed than I.

AngelNCThreads: 3 Posts: 106 Joined: Dec 19, 07 ♀	Sep 27, 11, 19:01 #24
[quote=PWE Some Jews took active part in the genocide of Poles under Soviet rule[/quote] true but it's also true that some Poles were anxious to report Jews to the Nazis (both ain't clean).

hythornThreads: 6 Posts: 843 Joined: Feb 21, 08 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 21:19 #25
During the Ten Years War, the Spanish were using them in Cuba, and the Americans also used both in the Phillipines and for native Americans. All three of these sad events predate the Boer War. The name (and concept) come from the Spanish reconcentrado Thanks for letting me know. I was not aware of the Ten Years War.

PWEIThreads: 5 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 28, 11 ♂	Sep 27, 11, 22:33 #26
the genocide of Poles There was no genocide against Poles after the war. Your foul lies would be a disgrace to the Polish nation if anybody ever believed you to be Polish.

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Sep 28, 11, 05:48 #27

many Poles are unaware that while Poland didn't run death camps, it most certainly ran concentration camps, both before and after WWII.

The camps run in Poland after the war were actually run by Jews who sought revenge for what happened to them during the war.

The British never did.

Really? I wonder what Native Americans would have to say about that....

My take on the 'Polish death camp' issue is that the confusion is linguistic. For some people, if it's in Poland, it's Polish. For others not. I can understand why some Poles are angry though.

Poland didn't exist during the war and these concentration/death camps were not created by Poles, therefore you can't call these camps Polish. By saying Polish death camp, you are essentially saying that these were Polish camps operated by Poles. Now someone like you who is familiar with the war will know that they weren't Polish camps. However if you ask someone outside of Europe or even Israel, they will think that the camps were a Polish creation and that Poles spearheaded the Holocaust. Overtime the term will make its way into history books and common knowledge. This is why many Poles make a big deal out of this issue. I remember watching a new story about this on tvn24 a couple of years back, they explained it quite well.

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Sep 28, 11, 14:01 #28

BBman
The camps run in Poland after the war were actually run by Jews who sought revenge for what happened to them during the war.

Please do not lie: some of the camps were run by Poles of Jewish ancestry and some were run by Poles of non-Jewish ancestry: see, for example, Salomon Morel (chased to the end of his days by the IPN) and Czesław Gęborski (trial terminated due to accused being unwell). And note that both of them worked for Stanisław Radkiewicz (who was not Jewish) and his boss was Bolesław Bierut (who was also not Jewish).

BBman
Really? I wonder what Native Americans would have to say about that....

I get the feeling that they would probably say something involving the letters U, S and A. And they would probably point out that the majority of Native Americans sided with Britain during the American war of independence. But you could always ask them.

BBman
Poland didn't exist during the war and these concentration/death camps were not created by Poles, therefore you can't call these camps Polish.

The camps can not in any way be called Polish. The few Poles who took part in the construction and operation of the AR camps were not doing so as Poles or as part of any Polish organisation.

BBman
By saying Polish death camp, you are essentially saying that these were Polish camps operated by Poles.

I'd say that by using the phrase "Polish death camps" a person is actually showing that they are such an ignorant twat that their opinion is utterly worthless. But that is just my opinion.

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Sep 28, 11, 14:27 #29

Please do not lie

Many people on this forum provide their opinion and this may not be completely correct.

This might not necessarily mean that they are lying but that they are misinformed.

You can argue and provide evidence to support your argument without flying off the handle and
calling people liars as frankly it becomes tiresome after a while

Your knowledge of history is impressive and you are clearly an intelligent person so please try to rise
above petty insults

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Edited by: Ziemowit Sep 28, 11, 14:56 #30

Hythorn
You are not yet used to the old song sung here in by Harry alias PWEI (supported eventually by DD) to the tunes of his Pol-Am friends or his Pol-Am friends replying to the music of Harry. It is best to avoid such threads.

Your knowledge of history is impressive and you are clearly an intelligent person so please try to rise
above petty insults

The above remark of yours will neither have an impact on the person concerned nor on his adversaries.

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