PolishForums.com
POLAND . The Unofficial Guide
 Unanswered | Archives
"Polska" means "Poland" in Polish! Witamy, Guest | PF Members | Gold Members

Polish Forums / News, Politics /

Wisława Szymborska died.


posts: 30

JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: JonnyM  Feb 1, 12, 21:22    #1
Wisława Szymborska died this evening aged 89. She was a great poet - probably the greatest Polish poet of modern times. And a Nobel laureate too. She wrote some wonderful poems which are very worth reading.

Die? One does not do that to a cat.
Because what's a cat to do
in an empty apartment?

Umrzeć - tego się nie robi kotu.
Bo co ma począć kot
w pustym mieszkaniu.
ReservoirDogThreads: -
Posts: 220
Joined: Nov 22, 11 ♀ 		 Feb 1, 12, 21:37    #2
"Nothing twice"

Nothing can ever happen twice.
In consequence, the sorry fact is
that we arrive here improvised
and leave without the chance to practice.

Even if there is no one dumber,
if you're the planet's biggest dunce,
you can't repeat the class in summer:
this course is only offered once.

No day copies yesterday,
no two nights will teach what bliss is
in precisely the same way,
with precisely the same kisses.

One day, perhaps some idle tongue
mentions your name by accident:
I feel as if a rose were flung
into the room, all hue and scent.

The next day, though you're here with me,
I can't help looking at the clock:
A rose? A rose? What could that be?
Is it a flower or a rock?

Why do we treat the fleeting day
with so much needless fear and sorrow?
It's in its nature not to stay:
Today is always gone tomorrow.

With smiles and kisses, we prefer
to seek accord beneath our star,
although we're different (we concur)
just as two drops of water are.

Wislawa Szymborska
Translated by Clare Cavanagh and Stanislaw Baranczak
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
Posts: 6,213
Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂ 		 Feb 1, 12, 21:37    #3
JonnyM:
She wrote some wonderful poems which are very worth reading.


Also this one I heard: "Niech żyje nam towarzysz Stalin, co usta słodsze ma od malin".
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: JonnyM  Feb 1, 12, 21:38    #4
Grzegorz_:
"Niech żyje nam towarzysz Stalin, co usta słodsze ma od malin".

Excellent. This is one of her best ones.

"So suddenly, who could have seen it coming"

"stress and smoking, I kept telling him"

"not bad, thanks, and you"

"these flowers need to be unwrapped"

"his brother's heart gave out too, it runs in the family"

"I'd never know you in that beard"

"he was asking for it, always mixed up in something"

"that new guy was going to make a speech, I don't see him"

"Kazek's in Warsaw, Tadek's gone abroad"

"you were smart, you brought the only umbrella"

"so what if he was more talented than them"

Some details in this poem suggest the setting of this poem to be Kraków's oldest cemetery, Cmentarz Rakowicki (picture above), where some of Poland's major artists and politicians are buried. This is why the casual conversations in the back rows of the funeral crowd contrast with the solemnity of the place as well as of the occasion.

"no, it's a walk-through room, Barbara won't take it"

"of course he was right, but that's no excuse"

"with bodywork and paint, just guess how much"

At this point, the friends of the deceased are discussing the future assignment of the deceased's room in a shared apartment - one of the more common nightmares of living under communism, the many shortages of which included that of housing.

"two egg yolks and a tablespoon of sugar"

"none of his business, what was in it for him"

"only in blue and just small sizes"

"five times and never any answer"

"all right, so I could have, but you could have too"

"good thing that at least she still has a job"

"don't know, relatives, I guess"

A traditional cure for the sore throat.

"that priest looks just like Belmondo"

"I've never been in this part of the grounds"

"I dreamed about him last week, I had a feeling"

"his daughter's not bad looking"

"the way of all flesh"

"give my best to the widow, I've got to run"

Jean-Paul Belmondo, actor, 1960's/70's male sex symbol of the French cinema.

"it all sounded so much more solemn in Latin"

"what's gone is gone"

"good-bye"

"I could sure use a drink"

"give me a call"

"which bus goes downtown"

"I'm going this way"

"we re not"



Kraków, 1986
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
Posts: 6,213
Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂ 		 Feb 1, 12, 21:55    #5
JonnyM:
Excellent. This is one of her best ones.


"Lenin" is also good.
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		Edited by: JonnyM  Feb 1, 12, 22:02    #6
Grzegorz_:
"Lenin" is also good.

Yes, though I prefer her later works.

'The Three Oddest Words'

When I pronounce the word Future,
the first syllable already belongs to the past.

When I pronounce the word Silence,
I destroy it.

When I pronounce the word Nothing.
I make something no nonbeing can hold.
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Feb 1, 12, 22:05    #7
JonnyM:
Die? One does not do that to a cat.
Because what's a cat to do
in an empty apartment?

Umrzeć - tego się nie robi kotu.
Bo co ma począć kot
w pustym mieszkaniu.


I don;t know about you people but I find such rhymeless poetry very depressing (not to mention that the mood of this particular bit is not allegro either)
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 13:21    #8
And now some PiS MP's are complaining that her poetry wasn't simple mindedly patriotic enough....

"her work doesn't remind me of Polish willow trees..."

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,114884,11092275,PiS_nie_lubi_ Szymborskiej___Nie_kojarzy_mi_sie_z_polska.html?lokale=poznan
aphrodisiacThreads: 22
Posts: 3,998
Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀ 		 Feb 5, 12, 13:23    #9
mafketis:
And now some PiS MP's are complaining that her poetry wasn't simple mindedly patriotic enough....

thank God it wasn't.
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 13:27    #10
mafketis:
And now some PiS MP's are complaining that her poetry wasn't simple mindedly patriotic enough....

"her work doesn't remind me of Polish willow trees..."


I don't really know Szymborska's poetry - bits like JohnnyM posted are hardly poetry for me - no rhyme no rythm simplistic language not much of any depth - I know she also wrote in rhyme and this bits are much better (like the one ReservoirDog posted)
aphrodisiacThreads: 22
Posts: 3,998
Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀ 		Edited by: aphrodisiac  Feb 5, 12, 13:28    #11
gumishu:
not much of any depth

I see. So she got the Nobel prize for nothing then in your opinion.
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 13:32    #12
aphrodisiac:
I see. So she got the Nobel prize for nothing then in your opinion.


I have no idea - as I said I don't really know her poetry - but look at this 'cat bit' for example - is it poetry? - what's so extraordinary about it? and the tone of it? - not very uplifting, huh?
JonnyMThreads: 16
Posts: 4,487
Joined: Mar 9, 11 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 13:36    #13
It doesn't need to be uplifting to be poetry - or to rhyme. She (and Milosz) were the two greats of late 20th Century poetry in Poland.
aphrodisiacThreads: 22
Posts: 3,998
Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀ 		 Feb 5, 12, 13:36    #14
gumishu:
but look at this 'cat bit' for example - is it poetry?

the cat piece is brilliant in my opinion. I read it yeas ago and I was taken by it. It isn't very uplifting because she is talking about death in a non direct way. She had a gift of talking about most painful things in life. It is very difficult to describe poetry or explain it. One either gets it or not:).
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
Posts: 6,213
Joined: Nov 16, 06 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 13:39    #15
aphrodisiac:
Nobel prize


They are awarded subjectivly and in many cases the decisions were highly criticized...

BTW Szymborska herself was very controversial and that's not surprising given her political views, isn't it ?
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 13:43    #16
aphrodisiac:
One either gets it or not:).


I don't get it, how do you get poetry? :) - do you suggest I am not getting the point of it?

the 'cat bit' has nothing profound in it for me - it's a just a plain simplistic unconstructive thought written in plain words
modafinilThreads: -
Posts: 831
Joined: Jun 28, 11  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		Edited by: modafinil  Feb 5, 12, 14:11    #17
gumishu:
the 'cat bit' has nothing profound in it for me - it's a just a plain simplistic unconstructive thought written in plain words


Does it not suggest the loneliness of the old Doris? Living in an empty apartment justifying her continuance for the sake of an animal as independent as a cat?


JohnnyM:

When I pronounce the word Future,
the first syllable already belongs to the past.

When I pronounce the word Silence,
I destroy it.

When I pronounce the word Nothing.
I make something no nonbeing can hold.


She may have been a closet Zen Buddhist by the sounds of it
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 14:17    #18
modafinil:
Does it not suggest the loneliness of the old Doris? Living in an empty apartment justifying her continuance for the sake of an animal as independent as a cat?


mhmmm mhmm - and this is profound? - you will find Kora Jackowska lyrics for Maanam much more of poetry than this ('Czekam na wiatr co rozgoni, ciemne skłębione zasłony, Stanę wtedy na raz ze słońcem twarzą w twarz')
aphrodisiacThreads: 22
Posts: 3,998
Joined: Apr 15, 09 ♀ 		 Feb 5, 12, 14:19    #19
Grzegorz_:
BTW Szymborska herself was very controversial and that's not surprising given her political views, isn't it ?

I think she renounced her communist views in the 60s if I am not mistaken. That gave her 50 years of writing.

Grzegorz_:
They are awarded subjectivly and in many cases the decisions were highly criticized...

I am sure you are right, yet that prize is not given just to anybody, so I am not sure what you are trying to say, or rather asking me. I was NOT there.

gumishu:

I don't get it, how do you get poetry? :) - do you suggest I am not getting the point of it?

Yes, I am suggesting that. That is OK though. I don't get many things either:).
gumishu:
the 'cat bit' has nothing profound in it for me - it's a just a plain simplistic unconstructive thought written in plain words

well, I disagree, but perhaps you are not a cat owner:)
modafinilThreads: -
Posts: 831
Joined: Jun 28, 11  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 14:26    #20
gumishu:
mhmmm mhmm - and this is profound? -


Poetry doesn't have to be profound. In this case just denial in an old coffin dodgers outlook(I don't necessarily mean WS). Rhyme or rhythm will not make it any more profound. Not sure if I have read anything really profound...perhaps Desiderata.
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 16:18    #21
I can certainly see why some Poles don't care for her work on aesthetic grounds. Polish people tend to think that important ideas have to be cloaked in important sounding (that is, intricate and complex) language. Szymborska was one of the few practicitoners of plain languge in Polish whcih makes a lot of what she did seem 'too simple'. I disagree.

Nothing is harder to combine than true simplicity and real feeling. Szymborska managed it (for me, admittedly not a poetry person) a very high percentage of the time.

The funeral poem is one of my favorites, a snapshot of a moment and dozens of conversations, none about what they're supposedly there for....
pawianThreads: 90
Posts: 5,405
Joined: May 30, 08  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 16:29    #22
ReservoirDog:
"Nothing twice"

Nothing can ever happen twice.
In consequence, the sorry fact is
that we arrive here improvised
and leave without the chance to practice.



Wonderfully rendered in Maanam`s rock song:
gumishuThreads: 17
Posts: 3,943
Joined: Apr 6, 09  Pictures: 1 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 16:31    #23
mafketis:
Szymborska was one of the few practicitoners of plain languge in Polish whcih makes a lot of what she did seem 'too simple'. I disagree.


I am a great fan of dramatic or dynamic effect in poetry - plain language will hardly ever create such an effect, neither lack of rythm or rhyme will help in that - if you read poetry like the poem you mention, mafketis, you'll get tired after a page or two - now compare that to say 'Pan Tadeusz' by Mickiewicz
strzygaThreads: 4
Posts: 988
Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀ 		 Feb 5, 12, 16:54    #24
mafketis:
"her work doesn't remind me of Polish willow trees..."

yeah. It's made my day. She was quite willowy herself though.

gumishu:
the 'cat bit' has nothing profound in it for me

the quoted bit was just the beginning, here's the full poem (sorry I can't find an English translation)

Umrzeć - tego się nie robi kotu.
Bo co ma począć kot
w pustym mieszkaniu.
Wdrapywać się na ściany.
Ocierać między meblami.
Nic niby tu nie zmienione,
a jednak pozamieniane.
Niby nie przesunięte,
a jednak porozsuwane.
I wieczorami lampa już nie świeci.

Słychać kroki na schodach,
ale to nie te.
Ręka, co kładzie rybę na talerzyk,
także nie ta, co kładła.

Coś sie tu nie zaczyna
w swojej zwykłej porze.
Coś się tu nie odbywa
jak powinno.
Ktoś tutaj był i był,
a potem nagle zniknął
i uporczywie go nie ma.

Do wszystkich szaf sie zajrzało.
Przez półki przebiegło.
Wcisnęło się pod dywan i sprawdziło.
Nawet złamało zakaz
i rozrzuciło papiery.
Co więcej jest do zrobienia.
Spać i czekać.

Niech no on tylko wróci,
niech no się pokaże.
Już on się dowie,
że tak z kotem nie można.
Będzie się szło w jego stronę
jakby się wcale nie chciało,
pomalutku,
na bardzo obrażonych łapach.
O żadnych skoków pisków na początek.
modafinilThreads: -
Posts: 831
Joined: Jun 28, 11  Pictures: 2 ♂ 		 Feb 5, 12, 18:05    #25
strzyga:
the quoted bit was just the beginning, here's the full poem (sorry I can't find an English translation)




First in Polish.
From 1.17 in English
delphiandomineThreads: 42
Posts: 9,954
Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended] 		 Feb 5, 12, 18:34    #26
Grzegorz_:
They are awarded subjectivly and in many cases the decisions were highly criticized...


Are you sure you're Polish?
Marynka11Threads: 8
Posts: 1,447
Joined: Nov 3, 10 ♀ 		Edited by: Marynka11  Feb 5, 12, 20:11    #27
Grzegorz_:

They are awarded subjectivly and in many cases the decisions were highly criticized...

The decisions are usually criticized by the one who were hoping to get it, but didn't :)

There is usually more critics though if a woman gets the award, than when a man gets it. And the good old parity discussion kicks in, for example that Szymborska got the award because she was a woman, and her being from Eastern Europe was a plus, Toni Morrison, because is a woman and black, etc...

Here is my favorite poem. I find it looses a lot in the English translation.


Cebula
Co innego cebula.
Ona nie ma wnętrzności.
Jest sobą na wskroś cebula,
do stopnia cebuliczności.
Cebulasta na zewnątrz,
cebulowa do rdzenia,
mogłaby wejrzeć w siebie
cebula bez przerażenia.

W nas obczyzna i dzikość
ledwie skórą przykryta,
inferno w nas interny,
anatomia gwałtowna,
a w cebuli cebula,
nie pokrętne jelita.
Ona wielekroć naga,
do głębi itympodobna.

Byt niesprzeczny cebula,
udany cebula twór.
W jednej po prostu druga,
w większej mniejsza zawarta,
a w następnej kolejna,
czyli trzecia i czwarta.
Dośrodkowa fuga.
Echo złożone w chór.

Cebula, to ja rozumiem:
najnadobniejszy brzuch świata.
Sam się aureolami
na własną chwałę oplata.
W nas - tłuszcze, nerwy, żyły,
śluzy i sekretności.
I jest nam odmówiony
idiotyzm doskonałości.

=======
The onion
the onion, now that's something else
its innards don't exist
nothing but pure onionhood
fills this devout onionist
oniony on the inside
onionesque it appears
it follows its own daimonion
without our human tears

our skin is just a coverup
for the land where none dare to go
an internal inferno
the anathema of anatomy
in an onion there's only onion
from its top to it's toe
onionymous monomania
unanimous omninudity

at peace, at peace
internally at rest
inside it, there's a smaller one
of undiminished worth
the second holds a third one
the third contains a fourth
a centripetal fugue
polypony compressed

nature's rotundest tummy
its greatest success story
the onion drapes itself in it's
own aureoles of glory
we hold veins, nerves, and fat
secretions' secret sections
not for us such idiotic
onionoid perfections
strzygaThreads: 4
Posts: 988
Joined: Apr 30, 08 ♀ 		Edited by: strzyga  Feb 5, 12, 21:08    #28
Marynka11:
I find it looses a lot in the English translation.

Gains a lot too, in other moments. All in all, it evens out. Great translation. Barańczak and Cavenagh again?
Marynka11Threads: 8
Posts: 1,447
Joined: Nov 3, 10 ♀ 		 Feb 5, 12, 21:19    #29
strzyga:
Barańczak and Cavenagh again?

yes
strzyga:
Gains a lot too, in other moments.

Maybe the translation has to grow on me. I've never read the poem in English until today. The Polish feels much smoother to me.
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂ 		 Feb 6, 12, 03:41    #30
gumishu:
I am a great fan of dramatic or dynamic effect in poetry - plain language will hardly ever create such an effect


I have no quarrel for those who don't find her work aesthetically appealing (de gustibus and all that). I just find criticisms of the type given by the PiS MP's in question to be .... odd.

They're basically criticising her on political grounds (she didn't adhere to their vision of nationalism) and don't see the irony at all.


Home / News, Politics / Unanswered [this forum] | Similar


Similar discussions:

Is it legal to burn plastic rubbish in Poland?  Warsaw Modlin Airport is finally moving


Random: AUSTRALIJCZYK W POLSCE MA PROBLEMY Z KOMORNIKIEM!

Only registered and logged-in users may post here. Please log in or register.


58 [Guests - 43 / Members - 15] users on live forums now


Home | Unanswered | Archives | Random | Statistics Time in Poland: 23:05 / May 26

About Us | Contact Us | Rules, Privacy | Poland Advertising
© 2005-12 PolishForums.com