Y Shaped high speed rail line Poland

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Dec 28, 10, 16:51 #1

€8 billion project, around 500 kilometres of tracks
The proposal will be submitted to the whole Polish Government early 3Q 2008, in order to launch the feasability studies. The Infrastructures Ministry plans to finish the preliminary studies by 2010. The Government aims to begin construction by 2014 and complete it in 2019, to start operation by 2020.

The project is evaluated at €8 billion (€6 to €7 billion for construction, and €1 billion for rolling stock), and the proposed Y-shaped-corridor has a main branch from Warsaw to Lodz, and two distinct legs going to Poznan and Wroclaw, respectively at 330 kilometres and 345 kilometres from Warsaw. With 35 trainsets running on the tracks, Minister Grabarczyk expects the trips to last around 1h30 while they are presently around 5h30 and 3h00 ! Also, what the Polish Government wants, is to link the network to the European already efficient high-speed rail network.

Poland will be inviting bids for the rolling stock but Minister Grabarczyk definitely showed his preference for the new 360-kph-French Alstom AGV (entering service in Italy in 2011), even saying that “The AGV doesn’t seem to have any competition.”

Article: Des TGV en Pologne d’ici 2020

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,188 Joined: Jun 7, 07 ♂	Dec 28, 10, 16:56 #2
Its a great idea....i just hope they don,t get the Chinese to build it...!

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Dec 28, 10, 17:00 #3
wildrover: Its a great idea....i just hope they don,t get the Chinese to build it...! LOL yea we wouldn't want those nice new French AGVs flying off the tracks.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 28, 10, 17:07 #4
Nah, PKP still have further irritating of passengers to do ;) Poland will simply not be able to afford such an ambitious project. I've rode the nozomi bullet train (shinkansen) in Japan and I just can't imagine them here in Poland. Not in industrial Silesia anyway. Still, good to see that Poland is looking to take a leap forward (though too large, I fear).

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Edited by: jwojcie Dec 28, 10, 17:08 #5

I hope I will live long enough to use it :-) Current 5 to 6 hours between Wroclaw and Warsaw sucks. It seems that this project changed category from "fantasy" into "long distant future". As far as I know currently feasibility study is in the making by some Spanish company. The only thing I pray for is that gov. will create dedicated entity to lead that project because I fear that if PKP takes it we can forget about whole thing...

Seanus:

Poland will simply not be able to afford such an ambitious project.

Poland alone maybe not, but it seems gov is not stupid here. It seems that this Y is perfectly inline with European TENT network which means EU money. They started to talk about it also with Germans and Czechs to plan fuuuuture connections Warsaw-Poznan-Berlin and Warsaw-Wroclaw-Prague. If you add to that recent problems with planes in Europe, when trains became the only option then I think it is a good moment to direct some money on railways in 2014-2020 EU budget projection. Guess who is at the head off budget commision in EU ;-)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 28, 10, 17:10 #6
The TGV is even faster than the nozomi shinkansen, I believe. You'd soon find Poles complaining about the speed ;) ;)

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Edited by: PennBoy Dec 28, 10, 17:29 #7

Seanus:

Poland will simply not be able to afford such an ambitious project.

They are building it. Start of construction of the first section of the line (Warszawa Centralna - Lodz Fabryczna) is possible at the turn of 2013/2014 and is expected to cost €10 billion. Completion of this section is planned for the year 2016/2017, putting the whole line it is possible to operate according to different specialists by the year 2019 or 2020.

In Łódź itself the line will be a tunnel that will connect the existing railway stations of Łódź Fabryczna and Łódź Kaliska. The Łódź Fabryczna station will be rebuilt - it is planned to be placed completely underground. Commencement of the construction of a new station is scheduled for 2010, and the cost is estimated at around 1.2 billion zlotys.

sobieskiThreads: 82 Posts: 1,143 Joined: Jun 1, 08 ♂	Dec 28, 10, 18:35 #8
I think they should spend the money first on upgrading, repairing and maintaining the current network. As I know in the steamtrain age the travel time Warsaw to Łódż was shorter as now. I read lately somewhere that PKP want to order "Pendolino" trains, but the kind which do not tilt and therefore are completely useless?

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Dec 28, 10, 18:47 #9

PennBoy, that really comes as a surprise to me but I think that the books will have been done. Money comes up from funny sources sometimes. The very fact that the EU has helped out in a number of other areas will have freed up some capital with which to finance it. It is really a marked improvement and it really encourages people to take advantage of their upward mobility options. I loved eating a bento (boxed lunch) in the hikari or nozomi shinkansen. Namagusai dakedo....(strong fish smell but....)

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Dec 28, 10, 20:24 #10
About the rebuilding of the Łódź Fabryczna station underground for the high speed rail line in the second half of this video.

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Dec 28, 10, 23:10 #11

PennBoy:

About the rebuilding of the Łódź Fabryczna station underground for the high speed rail line in the second half of this video.

The rebuilding of Lodz Fabryczna is about as idiotic and stupid as it gets. While the network is crumbling, the rebuilding of this station is a "pet project" - and haven't they learnt from Warszawa Centralna that underground stations universally don't work well in the long term?

Incidentally, it's doubtful that the line will be built until the money is found to extend the line to both Wroclaw and Poznan - neither city will accept being left out, yet there's really only enough money and demand to pay for the line to Poznan (due to the strategic value).

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Dec 29, 10, 12:22 #12

I just can't believe what I'm reading in this thread:

Seanus:

Poland will simply not be able to afford such an ambitious project.

Seanus:

You'd soon find Poles complaining about the speed ;)

sobieski:

I think they should spend the money first on upgrading, repairing and maintaining the current network. As I know in the steamtrain age the travel time Warsaw to Łódż was shorter as now.

delphiandomine:

The rebuilding of Lodz Fabryczna is about as idiotic and stupid as it gets. While the network is crumbling, the rebuilding of this station is a "pet project" - and haven't they learnt from Warszawa Centralna that underground stations universally don't work well in the long term?

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Edited by: jwojcie Dec 29, 10, 12:46 #13

delphiandomine:

The rebuilding of Lodz Fabryczna is about as idiotic and stupid as it gets. While the network is crumbling, the rebuilding of this station is a "pet project" - and haven't they learnt from Warszawa Centralna that underground stations universally don't work well in the long term?

And they say that Poles are a specialist in everything ;-) I'm not a specialist either, but as far as I know tunnel in Łódź (which means underground station) is one of optimal choices due to factors like building tracks in highly populated aglomeration, closenest to the city center, various constraints originating in specific of high speed rails (soft curves). As far as I know the initial idea was that not every train suppose to stop in Łódź in order to maintain high speed between Wro-Poz and Waw-Wro. Building high speed bypass can be equally expensive. Anyway there is a lot of contradictory factors in place here so a tunnel sometimes can be a good option.

As for Warsaw Central, yeah maybe it is ugly there but in the same time it is very effective communication solution. The problem is not that it is underground but a PKP way of maintaning place clean...

Lodz_The_BoatThreads: 58 Posts: 2,314 Joined: Sep 7, 08 ♂	Dec 29, 10, 13:05 #14
jwojcie: Building high speed bypass can be equally expensive. Anyway there is a lot of contradictory factors in place here so a tunnel sometimes can be a good option. If you strengthen the infrastructure safely, then any expense is not too much. Because a stronger infrastructure helps further development. My city needs much further development, and I for once can assure it.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 13 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09 ♂	Dec 29, 10, 13:30 #15
I'd be surprised if these high speed trains can run in the winter in Poland. Usually they have problems when it's snow and ice.

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Dec 29, 10, 13:44 #16

jwojcie:

And they say that Poles are a specialist in everything ;-)

There is nothing of a compliment in it. Someone who is a specialist in everything is a specialist in nothing. Above, I have summed up the opinions of certain "specialists" which only support such a point. The underground railway line built under the center of Warsaw in 1936 was an excellent and in a way "prophetic" solution which serves the city even better today than it did before the World War II. This solution is now to be repeated in Łódź. Telling that upgrading, repairing and maintaining the current old-fashioned network is better than building a completely new, modern and highly-efficient railway infrastructure between the four major towns in Poland: Warsaw, Łódź, Wrocław and Poznań simply doesn't make much sense.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09 ♂	Edited by: jwojcie Dec 29, 10, 13:50 #17
Ziemowit: There is nothing of a compliment in it. You know, a bit of irony was intended there ;-)

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Edited by: Ziemowit Dec 29, 10, 16:10 #18

SzwedwPolsce:

I'd be surprised if these high speed trains can run in the winter in Poland. Usually they have problems when it's snow and ice.

Trains may have problems when it is snow and ice everywhere in Europe. For example, it took 28 hours for a train in France which departed last Sunday from Strasbourg to arrive in Port Bou on the Spanish border. The journey should have lasted 11 hours only. "On aurait pu aller en Australie [One could have made it to Australia]" - complained one angry passenger. Five hundred ninety-nine other passangers were equally 'not amused'.

The recent chaos on the railway tracks in Poland was connected to the change of timetable. It seems that winter time had added to it considerably, but was not the main reason.

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Dec 29, 10, 18:40 #19

Ziemowit:

Telling that upgrading, repairing and maintaining the current old-fashioned network is better than building a completely new, modern and highly-efficient railway infrastructure between the four major towns in Poland: Warsaw, Łódź, Wrocław and Poznań simply doesn't make much sense.

Maybe, maybe not... To build such an ambitious project Poland will need to modernize their electrical grid correct?

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Edited by: PennBoy Feb 23, 11, 23:44 #20

The Alstom New Pendolino will be the rolling stock for Poland high speed rail service. 20 trainsets in a deal worth €400m. The EU's Operational Programme Infrastructure & Environment is providing €200m to cover half the costs of the 20 Pendolino trainsets.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/alstom-sole-bid der-in-polish-high-speed-train-tender.html
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/10-year-contrac t-will-trigger-pkp-intercity-pendolino-order.html

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 23, 11, 23:50 #21
PennBoy: The Alstom New Pendolino will be the rolling stock for Poland high speed rail service. Jeez, what utter rubbish and totally unsuitable for Polish high speed operations.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 ♂ [Suspended]	Feb 24, 11, 00:14 #22
delphiandomine: what utter rubbish and totally unsuitable for Polish high speed operations. Well, unless they replace the tracks with the type suitable for tilting trains. The ones which the know-nothing cretins think are ideal for Poland....

PennBoyThreads: 157 Posts: 3,443 Joined: Dec 7, 08 ♂	Edited by: Moderator Feb 24, 11, 01:22 #23
Harry: The ones which the know-nothing cretins think are ideal for Poland.... The line from Warsaw to Gdansk and from Warsaw to Krakow/Katowice is being modernized ***** and will be suitable for the new Pendolino trains. These are not the super fast trains for the Y shaped Warsaw-Lodz-Poznan/Wroclaw line which wont be built for years to come.

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Dec 9, 11, 12:26 #24

Cancelled until after 2030

Poland’s high speed railway and central airport put on hold

Poland froze the PLN 32-40 billion investment in high-speed railways and the construction of a central airport, postponing the plans until the post-2030 period, new Transport Minister Slawomir Nowak has announced.

Railways need a massive modernization and, in order for its effects to be visible as soon as possible, Poland needs to focus on modernizing existing railways and not spend money on new projects, the transport minister said.

Withholding the high-speed railway investment postpones the construction of a central airport as the two projects are interconnected, deputy Transport Minister Tadeusz Jarmuziewicz said as quoted by the daily Puls Biznesu.

It is a very good decision, Wlodzimierz Rydzykowski from Gdansk University assessed for the daily Gazeta Wyborcza. The Spaniards built their high-speed railway from public funds and now they struggle to repay the loans, Rydzykowski said.

Poland has spent PLN 340 million on preparing the now frozen investments, Rzeczpospolita daily reminded.

http://www.warsawvoice.pl/WVpage/pages/article.php/19078/news

VarsovianThreads: 91 Posts: 568 Joined: Nov 23, 06 ♂	Dec 9, 11, 14:36 #25
Well, I'm happy Gazeta Wyborcza supported the govt on this decision. Poles don't need to travel far or fast. It's more than a touch ironic, though, cos Michnik was free to travel far and fast throughout Europe under Communism. And he got free consular accommodation as he was "one of us".

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 ♂ [Moderator]	Dec 9, 11, 14:47 #26
Varsovian: Poles don't need to travel far or fast. some of us do. the way it is it's too slow. it's fast, straight track that we need. what's the point of making it look pretty now, only to invest more later.

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Dec 9, 11, 15:10 #27

Seanus:

I loved eating a bento (boxed lunch) in the hikari or nozomi shinkansen. Namagusai dakedo....(strong fish smell but....)

Just remember... no durians :)

Varsovian:

Poles don't need to travel far or fast.

Why would anyone choose a five-hour journey over a two-hour one?

The last time I got a train in Poland, it took over five hours to get to Gdansk - and that was an "inter-city" train (iirc), which implies "faster". Well, it would over here, but not in Poland. A similar journey in the UK would take half that time, yet everyone still complains about the rail service over here. It took well over an hour just to cross the Warsaw boundary, yet it barely takes half an hour to get out of London, which is much bigger!

Wroclaw:

it's fast, straight track that we need.

what's the point of making it look pretty now, only to invest more later.

Chodov in "Agrees With Moderator" shocker :D

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Dec 9, 11, 15:47 #28

Railways need a massive modernization and, in order for its effects to be visible as soon as possible, Poland needs to focus on modernizing existing railways and not spend money on new projects, the transport minister said.

Very true. The whole "high-speed railways" nonsense was a way to suck huge amount of money out of Poland by several western companies. However I don't understand what they want to do in regard to the central airfield... just change the localization ? I will be badly needed in a few years.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Dec 9, 11, 20:05 #29
Where would the excuse for not being punctual then? ;)

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Dec 11, 11, 12:05 #30

Varsovian:

cos Michnik was free to travel far and fast throughout Europe under Communism.

Was he?

I seem to remember reading that he was frequently locked up and prohibited from travelling. You know, totally unlike many of those now opposing, who spent their time not protesting, getting arrested or locked up. Easy to be a hero in today's political environment, isn't it?

Varsovian:

Poles don't need to travel far or fast.

Really?

That would be why LOT makes a lot of money on internal Polish flights, then?

Grzegorz_:

The whole "high-speed railways" nonsense was a way to suck huge amount of money out of Poland by several western companies.

Nonsense? I suggest you start by looking at the French example as to what can be done with high speed railways. Anyway, Poland hasn't got a hope in hell of modernising the railways without Western involvement.

Interestingly, I see that the criticism of the railway workers wasn't mentioned - he completely laid into them for not caring less about the customers, not caring less about anyone except their own cushy job and conditions.

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