20 YEARS ON A BETTER POLAND -- ALSO BETTER POLES?

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Jun 7, 09, 23:55 #1

In recent days much has been said and written in Poland about the 290th anniversary of free Poland, the progress made in that period -- the modernization, new housing, consumer
abundance not to mention the lack of censorship, NATO nad EU membership, home-kept passports, free media and private business. The general consensus is that Poland has definitely improved. But when Poland's first non-commie PM Tadeusz Mazowiecki was asked "Have we (Poles) improved?" , he said he wasn't that sure. What do you think?

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Jun 8, 09, 10:10 #2

I am not sure, either. Changes in mentality are slow and take much longer time than any economic change. It is in the US that one researcher (of Polish origin) strongly argues that we, Poles, still show the mentality of citizens of a post-colonial country. Indeed, for 122 years we were in true fact "colonies" of Russia, Prussia and Austria. Before that, things were not on a good path either, with our doubtful "gentry" parliamentarian democracy of 10% of the nation in which the famous "liberum veto" played a vital and most destructive role. The few magnates had too much land and power and could buy everyone; they used to teach their sons the alphabet by teaching them firing bullets at shields having individual letters on them (I think this "attitude" can be seen among many of the Polish members of these forums, too).

craydenThreads: - Posts: 2 Joined: Mar 20, 09 ♂	Jun 9, 09, 13:53 #3
I have just written a web page on that subject. I am English bt live in Poland. The concensus it that people are more materialistic and selfish now than during the communist times. I think it boiled down to being together in adversity, today its more competatve. about-poland.com

SwiteziankaThreads: - Posts: 525 Joined: Jun 17, 08 ♀	Jun 9, 09, 23:05 #4
Polonius3: In recent days much has been said and written in Poland about the 290th anniversary of free Poland 290th? Better look it up

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jun 6, 10, 22:34 #5
More liberated :) Still obsessed with old commies, tho

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Jul 2, 10, 13:40 #6

Obsessed with old commies? If Negro slavery were still in force in America, would the issue not keep cropping up in every election campaign until it was fully done away with? Poland has never carried out a fully-fleged de-communisation campaign, because post-commies, soft-on-communism Michnikites, soft-on-corruption Tuskites and the arse-saving Wałęsas of this world thwarted or diluted every attempt to sort thigns out and clean up the mess. The Kaczyńskis' 4th Republic project marked an attempt to finally finish the job but it came too late in the game and could not dislodge the deeply entrenched above-mentioned circles. So the unresolved issue of SB collaborators and related questions are likely to plague Poland's political scene for many years to come.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,529 Joined: Feb 6, 08 ♂	Jul 2, 10, 13:46 #7
Define "a better Pole". >^..^< M-G (haec hactenus)

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Edited by: jwojcie Jul 2, 10, 14:13 #8

I'm not better, I'm just older... From that point of view I'm rather worse ;-)
On the other hand, abundance of opportunites that I have now is uncomparable with misery of communist times... But it is environment not me...
On the other hand generation born in free Poland just don't know what they have... They don't feel the difference even they do now it exists.

Your question as a philosophical one is probably unanswerable...
But on the other hand GB Shaw supposedly said:
"Now when we learnt how to fly like a bird, how to swim like a fish, we must learn how to live as a human being"...
Which could mean many different things :-) But it can mean that by choosing more human friendly political system we got better already ;-)

On the other hand... it can mean also that regardless of technological and social development humans are just animals with thin layer of social mask, so maybe we merely changed mask not ourselfes ;-)

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,551 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Jul 2, 10, 14:58 #9
A better Pole or a better person are easy enough to define on the basis of universal virtues and vices. A better Pole or human would be kinder, more honest, decent, generous, altruistic, modest, humble, hospitable, helpful, friendly and respectful and less envious, greedy, vindictive, mean, vicious, haughty, boastful, selfish, disrespectful and petty.

frdThreads: 8 Posts: 1,956 Joined: Feb 3, 09 ♂	Edited by: frd Jul 2, 10, 17:58 #10
Polonius3: more more then what? Is there some kind of a "POLE IDIOSYNCRACIES METRIC SYSTEM" oh this guy, he's 3 Poles kind, and 2 and half Pole racist. ?

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,551 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Jul 2, 10, 18:36 #11
My English can't be that bad!? Kinder as opposed to less kind, more honest than dishonest, more generous as opposed to meaner, etc., etc. Has the PC crowd gone to the point that calling someone honest, decent and altruistic is racist? And people wonder why the world is so mucked up!

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Edited by: jwojcie Jul 2, 10, 22:17 #12

Polonius3:

Has the PC crowd gone to the point that calling someone honest, decent and altruistic is racist? And people wonder why the world is so mucked up!

Of course not, but your question is just to general :-)
How one can measure kindess of a nation? Personal experiences that some X was kind to the Y are quite meaningless in that regard. For a starter we can begin with crime statistics ;-) :

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Urban_ rankings#Crime_rate
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Crime_ trends_in_detail
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Crime_ statistics
From around 2002 we are going in the right direction -> down.

Another partially useful statistics would be HDI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_In dex

There Poland is going up, wich is good in that case.

But in the meantime foreigners whining about rudeness of polish clerks and salesmans seems to be never ending story...

PS. Hm... the best statistics you can get will be from God :-) I mean if we could get number of Poles going to heaven every year vs those going to hell... that would definitely mean something ;-) Hm.. I wonder if it would fit with the result of presidential elections in Sunday ;-)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Jul 2, 10, 22:32 #13
Look at Jarosław Kaczyński, the presidential candidate. What a model man ;) ;) ;)

chiasmos

Jul 2, 10, 23:07 #14

jwojcie:

PS. Hm... the best statistics you can get will be from God :-) I mean if we could get number of Poles going to heaven every year vs those going to hell... that would definitely mean something ;-) Hm.. I wonder if it would fit with the result of presidential elections in Sunday ;-)

Indeed....let the candidate with the most votes in this world govern in this world, and the candidate with the most votes in the next world (the existence which must remain in doubt) govern in the next.:-)

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,551 Joined: Apr 11, 08 ♂	Jul 2, 10, 23:39 #15
Indeed, among the indicators of improvement or decline are such factors as the amount of crime, juvenile delinquency, family break-up, unemployment, suicide, vandalism, etc. On that basis individual countries can be compared in different periods of time (eg prewar and postwar, or PRL and post-PRl) and different countreis amongst each other.

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Edited by: jwojcie Jul 3, 10, 01:17 #16

chiasmos:

jwojcie:
PS. Hm... the best statistics you can get will be from God :-) I mean if we could get number of Poles going to heaven every year vs those going to hell... that would definitely mean something ;-) Hm.. I wonder if it would fit with the result of presidential elections in Sunday ;-)

Indeed....let the candidate with the most votes in this world govern in this world, and the candidate with the most votes in the next world (the existence which must remain in doubt) govern in the next.:-)

Interesting idea! My thinking was in slightly other direction: according to some church circles Komorowski equals pure evil and Kaczynski (as he once said) is pure good. So, as the priests should now such things, theoretically those who will vote for Kaczynski are those who will go to heaven and those who will vote for Komorowski are those who will go to hell. I think it will be the closest heaven vs hell statistics aproximation we could get in this year ;-)
[there could be noice in such data, because not surprisingly priests are supporting single man without kids with cat vs man with five children, I fell some corporation thinking here ;-) ]...

Err... sory Polonius3, I didn't want to ruin your thread, so to get back to more serious staff:

Polonius3:

On that basis individual countries can be compared in different periods of time (eg prewar and postwar, or PRL and post-PRl) and different countreis amongst each other.

In my opinion it could be a problem, because what Poland did in recent years was unemployment export which softened social tensions in Poland but as world is looking for equilibrium it worsened statistics of others... Frankly much of Polish robbers chose greener lands... I would like to appologize to everyone affected...

chiasmos

Jul 3, 10, 01:36 #17

jwojcie:

according to some church circles Komorowski equals pure evil and Kaczynski (as he once said) is pure good. So, as the priests should now such things, theoretically those who will vote for Kaczynski are those who will go to heaven and those who will vote for Komorowski are those who will go to hell. I think it will be the closest heaven vs hell statistics aproximation we could get in this year ;-)

I did guess this is what you were suggesting:-)

And with that in mind (brazenly showing my own cards)...

"[may] the candidate with the most votes in this world govern in this world, and the candidate with the most votes in the next world (the existence which must remain in doubt) govern in the next.:-)"

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Jul 3, 10, 13:07 #18

II was thinking less of the country and its political structures than the average Pole, in other words how the changes have helped to shape attitudes. For instance, communism effectively encouraged theft because everything was state-owned, in other words it belonged to everybody so people had fewer qualms about helping themselves to things. A market economy clearly defines the concept of ownership. Charitable activates have clearly grown because communism first of all tried to hide its poverty and said the state would care for those down and outers, so Poles have become more charitable and that is a positive anti-selfish trait. These are only two examples but I think you'll get the general drift of what I had in mind.

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Edited by: jwojcie Jul 4, 10, 00:02 #19

chiasmos:

"[may] the candidate with the most votes in this world govern in this world, and the candidate with the most votes in the next world (the existence which must remain in doubt) govern in the next.:-)"

I needed two exciting games today and a couple of beers to understand and appreciate brilliance of your way of thinking :-) With that in mind I will open my cards: I would rather want Poles to be bad people ;-) We will see after tomorow finals ;-)

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Jul 4, 10, 08:41 #20

Polonius3:

lack of censorship

is that right?? hmmm

Polonius3:

PM Tadeusz Mazowiecki was asked "Have we (Poles) improved?" , he said he wasn't that sure. What do you think?

i dunno either.. poles like to get at each other's throats like none other.. it definitely isn't helpful...

crayden:

The concensus it that people are more materialistic and selfish now than during the communist times.

maybe but poles have always had a greedy streak in them and that is another thing that is not helpful in PL moving forward to its full potential.

Polonius3:

A better Pole or human would be kinder, more honest, decent, generous, altruistic, modest, humble, hospitable, helpful, friendly and respectful and less envious, greedy, vindictive, mean, vicious, haughty, boastful, selfish, disrespectful and petty.

then i don't think that polish peeps got better..

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