30 years of Solidarity? Fat chance!

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Aug 31, 10, 10:19 #1

I'm wondering why no one's brought up the 30th anniversary 'celebrations' yesterday?

You've gotta give it to the Poles, how many other countries can turn what should be a non-partisan celebration into a partisan hate-fest?

Jarosław "the ghoul" Kaczyński tried to turn the observance into another Lech memorial.

Tusk was whistled (like booing in the US for those unfamiliar with the habit)

Henryka Krzywonos (Henrietta Crooknose?) wasn't scheduled to speak but she took the podium anyway with this star-making speech where she tried (vainly) to instill a sense of shame into Kaczyński:

YOU GO GIRL!

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 ♂ [Suspended]	Aug 31, 10, 11:48 #2
mafketis: You've gotta give it to the Poles, how many other countries can turn what should be a non-partisan celebration into a partisan hate-fest? I'm not surprised. Solidarity as a whole know that their time of State-funded invincibility is coming to an end, and this is just the dying gasps of a movement that long ago ceased to be representative of Poland as a whole.

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Aug 31, 10, 12:19 #3

delphiandomine:

I'm not surprised. Solidarity as a whole know that their time of State-funded invincibility is coming to an end, and this is just the dying gasps of a movement that long ago ceased to be representative of Poland as a whole.

maybe that, but not so much. What I noticed during this meaning was the way how people reacted to her speech. Some were smiling, some were surprised, some whistled.

The fact is that there was a Premier of Poland, a former Premier of Poland present, among other important people. Just out of respect for those persons, people should listen.
I guess some Poles don't think it is necessary to listen to others, but they forget that it is a base for any democratic system. She mentioned freedom of speech, yet, she was whistled- what a shame to those who did that.

mafketis:

YOU GO GIRL!

hat off to her.

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Aug 31, 10, 12:42 #4

aphrodisiac:

What I noticed during this meaning was the way how people reacted to her speech.

The weirdest reaction was that of Szczypińska, Jarek's girlfriend (yeah, right). She was all smiles. It could have been a weird reaction of disbelief but she looked like she was having a great time hearing Krzywonos read the riot act.
She was also all smiles when PiS lost the parliamentary elections a couple of years ago, she seemed thrilled that her party lost..... weird.

asikThreads: 2 Posts: 547 Joined: Feb 17, 09 ♀	Aug 31, 10, 12:48 #5
mafketis: Jarosław "the ghoul" Kaczyński tried to turn the observance into another Lech memorial. Who are you to say "the ghoul" about Kaczynski anyway?!!! Are you one of the Russian's brothers, like Tusk-sprzedawczyk??? BACK OFF man!! Both Kaczynski's brothers at least hated and exposed Russians aka Sowiets to the Polish public and the world. No more need to be said!

jedenThreads: - Posts: 297 Joined: Nov 30, 09 ♂	Aug 31, 10, 12:51 #6
up maybe i don`t know but this video showed the lack of manners in Kaczyński surroundings.

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Aug 31, 10, 12:52 #7
asik, I'm sympathetic to Kaczyński for his loss (and willing to point out good points of Lech). But the last few months have been pretty grisly and in poor taste as Jarek tries to hide politically behind his dead brother (reframing criticism of Jarek as complicity in Lech's death) and I've had enough of it. It's kind of sickening and I'm glad he got called publicly on it.

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Aug 31, 10, 13:06 #8

asik:

Who are you to say "the ghoul" about Kaczynski anyway?!!! Are you one of the Russian's brothers, like Tusk-sprzedawczyk??? BACK OFF man!!

Better to be a brother of a Russian than a coward like Jarek.

asik:

Both Kaczynski's brothers at least hated and exposed Russians aka Sowiets to the Polish public and the world. No more need to be said!

I think people knew fine well about the Russians long before Lech and Jaroslaw appeared on the political scene. You know - Jaroslaw was too busy being protected by his father to fight anyone ;)

mafketis:

But the last few months have been pretty grisly and in poor taste as Jarek tries to hide politically behind his dead brother (reframing criticism of Jarek as complicity in Lech's death) and I've had enough of it. It's kind of sickening and I'm glad he got called publicly on it.

Looks like the end game is in sight for his political career. As you say - Szczypińska doesn't seem particularly upset, and she's clearly in line for leadership of the party.

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Aug 31, 10, 13:10 #9

mafketis:

The weirdest reaction was that of Szczypińska, Jarek's girlfriend (yeah, right). She was all smiles. It could have been a weird reaction of disbelief but she looked like she was having a great time hearing Krzywonos read the riot act.
She was also all smiles when PiS lost the parliamentary elections a couple of years ago, she seemed thrilled that her party lost..... weird.

yah, I noticed that too, didn't know her name. I guess she wears this smile on every occasion, which is too bad because no one knows what she really thinks. What a weird look for a politician or a party member.

jeden:

showed the lack of manners in Kaczyński surroundings.

only in Kaczynski's ? There were people form both sides and more such as Solidarity members who are not associated with either.
For me that was just another of lack of acceptance that PO is in power, which overridden the importance of Solidarity in Polish history. Petty.

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Edited by: Tami Aug 31, 10, 13:15 #10

asik:

Who are you to say "the ghoul" about Kaczynski anyway?!!! Are you one of the Russian's brothers, like Tusk-sprzedawczyk??? BACK OFF man!!
Both Kaczynski's brothers at least hated and exposed Russians aka Sowiets to the Polish public and the world. No more need to be said!

You can't play the chess if you resign from part of the chessboard. That's all about their foreign policy towards the Russia and EU. And call me sprzedawczyk (seller LOL) if you want.
It's free of the speech and he can say what he want as long as he don't harm anyone.

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Aug 31, 10, 13:37 #11

aphrodisiac:

For me that was just another of lack of acceptance that PO is in power, which overridden the importance of Solidarity in Polish history. Petty.

Solidarity should change their name - with every passing month, they're simply cementing the impression in people's minds that Solidarity were selfish morons out for themselves - as the Communists tried to paint them.

I'm firmly of the impression that Solidarity wanted what the Communists had, they didn't want freedom or democracy at all.

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Aug 31, 10, 14:11 #12

delphiandomine:

Solidarity should change their name - with every passing month, they're simply cementing the impression in people's minds that Solidarity were selfish morons out for themselves - as the Communists tried to paint them.

I'm firmly of the impression that Solidarity wanted what the Communists had, they didn't want freedom or democracy at all.

could you elaborate of those 2 sentences?

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Aug 31, 10, 14:43 #13
Well Solidarity's goal was never the establishment of capitalism (as they understood it). Their model was a western welfare state like Sweden.

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Aug 31, 10, 16:53 #14

aphrodisiac:

could you elaborate of those 2 sentences?

Sure.

As I understand it, during 1980/1981, and even 1989 - the Communists were attempting to portray Solidarity as being a negative social influence through the mass media. There were plenty of stories (many of them made up by TASS) going around about Solidarity and acts of violence - along with more damaging personal smears about various members of the organisation. As far as I can tell, the general idea was to portray Solidarity as "hooligans" - people more intent on trouble and their own well being than the well being of the country.

And now - it seems to come true.

Second sentence - Timothy Garton-Ash's excellent book on Solidarity explains a lot of it. Walesa for instance was riding around with a personal car and driver, and many other high ranking officials within his "circle" in Solidarity were doing quite well for themselves too. As mafketis says, they wanted something more similar to the Swedish social welfare state - and they never really wanted democracy either. Look at the Contract Sejm - the fact that Solidarity agreed to being allowed to run on the ballots, but not full democracy tells you everything you need to know - that many of them were content to share power.

I seem to recall that Solidarity at one point wanted to "control the means of production by independent self governing factories" - the idea being that Solidarity would run the factories for the benefit of the workers. We can now clearly see where that led - to complete disaster in the shipyards, in Ciegelski and others.

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Aug 31, 10, 17:44 #15

delphiandomine:

that many of them were content to share power.

some say that there was another "unofficial" agreement of the Round Table, that would explain why some communist were never put on trial.

delphiandomine:

We can now clearly see where that led - to complete disaster in the shipyards, in Ciegelski and others.

that is true, I am from Szczecin and I saw the deterioration of the Szczecin shipyard with my own eyes. The company was divided into many separate entities, so the flow of money could not be controlled, even though the Shipyard had building contracts until 2010 - that was 10 years ago and then it just did not materialize. Szczecin still has not lifted itself up after the shipyard failure.

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Sep 1, 10, 05:37 #16

mafketis:

YOU GO GIRL!

Love it!!!

mafketis:

Well Solidarity's goal was never the establishment of capitalism (as they understood it). Their model was a western welfare state like Sweden.

They probably really didn't know what exactly they wanted or what the end result might be, but anything could be better than what we had at the end of 70's: nothing but long lines for food and empty shelves in the stores.

delphiandomine:

the general idea was to portray Solidarity as "hooligans" - people more intent on trouble and their own well being than the well being of the country.

A typical communist information for the people. How dare the hooligans not appreciate what they have, which is: nothing.

delphiandomine:

Walesa for instance was riding around with a personal car and driver, and many other high ranking officials within his "circle" in Solidarity were doing quite well for themselves too.

That's what all leaders do, don't they?

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Edited by: Bzibzioh Sep 1, 10, 06:27 #17

Eurola:

They probably really didn't know what exactly they wanted or what the end result might be, but anything could be better than what we had at the end of 70's: nothing but long lines for food and empty shelves in the stores.

I agree. At the beginning they had no clue what they wanted beyond 'what we have now can't continue'. They were simple shipyard workers, not intellectuals. Only later they got all those 'advisers' who told them what their demands should be. And the rest is history.

delphiandomine:

Walesa for instance was riding around with a personal car and driver

Riding a bike wouldn't look too serious, would it? Plus he needed a bodyguard.

Her speech reminded me of this song
"Stoję przy mikrofonie, niech mnie który przegoni"

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Sep 1, 10, 11:42 #18

aphrodisiac:

some say that there was another "unofficial" agreement of the Round Table, that would explain why some communist were never put on trial.

I think, from the history sources we have available (and lacking a lot of the documentation from the Communist side) - it's obvious that at the very highest level, the Communists agreed to step aside in exchange for not being prosecuted. But I don't blame Solidarity for agreeing to this - Solidarity knew then that the army wasn't loyal to Poland, and if the Round Table failed - who knows what might have happened? Obviously, in hindsight, we know that Communism was failing anyway - but Walesa et al didn't know this at the time.

The thing that people can't seem to answer me - if compromising with the Communists was wrong - what was the alternative? Solidarity hardly had the means of fighting man to man with the authorities - and as far as I can tell, many of them were all for peaceful opposition anyway. It's funny - but anyone who is surprised these days by the split between Tusk and Kaczynski supporters should look back to 1980 - both of them lead straight back to the "intellectual" and the "worker" factions that came together then anyway.

aphrodisiac:

that is true, I am from Szczecin and I saw the deterioration of the Szczecin shipyard with my own eyes. The company was divided into many separate entities, so the flow of money could not be controlled, even though the Shipyard had building contracts until 2010 - that was 10 years ago and then it just did not materialize. Szczecin still has not lifted itself up after the shipyard failure.

It's the same here with Ciegelski in Poznan - from what I understand, they managed to drive the company into the ground despite them producing shipyard engines (which are in massive, massive demand right now). They really have no-one to blame but themselves - the companies were debt free, but from what I heard, the working practices were/are very much based on what was good for the workers, not for the health of the business. Of course, they were also subsidised for so long on the basis of sentimentality - which is no way to run a business!

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08 ♂	Sep 1, 10, 11:55 #19
delphiandomine: but anyone who is surprised these days by the split between Tusk and Kaczynski supporters should look back to 1980 - both of them lead straight back to the "intellectual" and the "worker" factions that came together then anyway. Except they've switched sides, which is a little confusing.

EurolaThreads: 6 Posts: 2,647 Joined: Dec 2, 06 ♀	Sep 1, 10, 21:44 #20
Bzibzioh: Her speech reminded me of this song "Stoję przy mikrofonie, niech mnie który przegoni" This is perfect. I forgot about the song. Stuhr was great in it! lol. Gosh, 1977...the times were not easy but it did not stop people from having fun!

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 ♀ [Suspended]	Sep 1, 10, 21:54 #21
Eurola: This is perfect. I forgot about the song. Stuhr was great in it! lol. I know :) One of the most memorable performances from the commie times.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07 ♂	Sep 2, 10, 07:47 #22
mafketis: Their model was a western welfare state like Sweden. it's not really welfare state, per se, but a model of socialism.. and what is so wrong with it anyway?

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Sep 5, 10, 23:52 #23

Why?
Maybe beacuse people who were fighting for "Solidarity" are disappointed that Polish society today "looks" mostly or just for material advantages of the movement.
Maybe because the anniversary is still celebrating in many places.
Maybe because memory about it is first of all in people's hearts and minds.
Maybe because many feel ashamed that values like work and bread... aren't the most important these days.
Maybe because many don't treasure things that were lacked by them in the past.

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