CAN YOU GUYS EXPLAIN THE EU TO ME?

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SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 3, 10, 22:02 #31
The whittling down of national sovereignty has been going on for some time now. There is nothing to be done. Ireland did the intelligent thing by asking for formally annexed protocols.

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Edited by: delphiandomine Mar 4, 10, 00:06 #32

rychlik:

- Very stupid quote and extremely ignorant. What country are you from? Don't forget that the German as'sholes received billions of dollars from the United States after WWII so they could get back on their feet. What did Poland get? Europe owes Poland.

And in return, America got a steadfast ally against Communism. America hardly gave Europe money because she felt nice - she gave money to Europe to ensure that America would have a firm presence upon Western Europe.

Calling Germans "********" just shows that you're terribly ignorant about modern Europe - you might want to note that the Polish Foreign Minister has just managed to pull off a nice piece of diplomacy with Germany.

rychlik:

That's the thing. Poland should be Polish (I have been to Poland). Not a mess like the UK or France.

Aha, all is clear. You believe President Kaczynski is a good, strong leader, don't you? :)

Let's not forget that the "mess" of the UK and France is considerably wealthier than Poland and far more stable.

convex:

How does the Lisbon treaty reinforce democracy? Wasn't that the document that was voted against by the people of multiple countries, and was then renamed and rammed through national parliaments?

It actually does make things significantly better in many areas - the EU should be more efficient now, and Lisbon also crucially, for the first time, introduces the formal exit mechanism that the EU was criticised for lacking. Really, Lisbon was a way of making the EU able to operate with the inevitable addition of most of the remaining European countries. The EU was also deadlocked at 27 due to Nice imposing a hard limit - which is why Croatia is still out in the cold despite being more than ready for membership.

Remeber, people voted for national parliaments - and in some cases, like in the UK and Poland, there are elections coming up in which anti-EU parties can make a case for withdrawal.

convex:

The Swiss and the Norwegians seem to have the right idea. All the benefits without all the stupid laws.

Quite the opposite in fact - Switzerland was told in no uncertain terms that they either accepted many difficult things (right to reside and work for EU nationals and their families being the big one, alongside Schengen) or they faced having the bilateral trade treaties torn up. They managed to get away without contributing money to the EU - but they certainly didn't get it all their own way. Just look at how much EU legislation is extended to Switzerland - they don't have a choice, it's either accept it or face isolation.

Norway is a huge contributor to the EU - they pay nearly 1 billion Euro a year in membership fees, yet they have little to no say over EU law, which is extended to Norway by means of the EEA. In fact, all that Norway really retains is control over fishing.

The problem is that without the EU having the power to dictate, we would never see things like Open Skies in the EU. And let's not forget that the EU has ensured similar standards throughout Europe - which is fundamentally a good thing for everyone. The recent upgrade for consumer warranties to last 2 years - this is an example where the EU told member states to do something, and it has had a massive benefit for ordinary consumers. Likewise with RHD cars - Poland is inevitably going to be told to register them, which benefits consumers as RHD cars can be bought cheaply.

Let's not forget that ultimately, the whole point of the EU is to bring countries closely together so that the horrors of war can never dawn on Europe again.

I fear however, that one day, we'll see a horrific war between the EU and the USA.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 4, 10, 00:20 #33
jwojcie: PS. One thing that always should be remebered is that EU come into being as a tool to restrain Germany. EU is kind of golden cage for them. We like! The best decades in our history....rich....surrounded by chums...no wars...

AmathystThreads: 30 Posts: 3,898 Joined: Nov 10, 06 ♀	Mar 4, 10, 00:28 #34
delphiandomine: how does it make any sense whatsoever for farmers to be paid to keep fields fallow? It doesnt and believe it or not farmers would rather be farming! rychlik: Poland should be Polish (I have been to Poland). Not a mess like the UK or France. Said the Pole living in Canada!

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Mar 4, 10, 00:47 #35

Amathyst:

It doesnt and believe it or not farmers would rather be farming!

The problem with the CAP is that even British farmers freely admit that the subsidies are what keeps them going. I have a friend who has around 200 beef cattle at any one time - not a huge amount, but enough to be going on with. The economics just don't add up without the EU subsidies - as he bluntly puts it, it's the EU or nothing for him as a farmer.

Personally, I'd rather see national governments decide what to subsidise on their own accord.

Amathyst:

Said the Pole living in Canada!

Gotta love the way that he doesn't even live in Poland, yet feels free to criticise the UK, despite probably never having been to the UK!

If I recall correctly, Canada is the place where they're so politically correct that they even have transgender toilets!

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Edited by: skysoulmate Mar 4, 10, 05:25 #36

MareGaea:

If you, like you say, live in the US, why did you vote "no" for the Euro? What's it to you? The Euro, monstrous as it may be, is a blessing, especially for the traveller. No worries about having to change currencies, losing money in the process, etc.

Mare, as a dual citizen with some savings in Sweden and a small summer house property there I felt it affected me too. I also listened to my family's concerns. It's not that I am against the Euro, I just think it's too early to tell.

I figured Swedish Crown served Sweden well and for quite some time. The earlier version of it - Riksdaler (from German Thaler which later became Dollar in some countries;) came about in the XVs century then in late 1873 it was replaced by the Krona at the rate 1 for 1. So why change it now? In 20 years or so the Euro will have proven itself.

As a frequent traveler :) I totally agree with you on it being very convenient. However, I guess I chose the "wait and see" approach when it comes to Sweden.

skysoulmateThreads: 41 Posts: 3,039 Joined: Jan 10, 10 ♂	Edited by: skysoulmate Mar 4, 10, 05:40 #37
rychlik: That's the thing. Poland should be Polish (I have been to Poland). Not a mess like the UK or France I thought you wanted to expand your knowledge on a specific subject? Not sure how you belittling other nations achieves that goal? You can find "mess" in ANY country if you look hard enough...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 4, 10, 09:38 #38
I was a Masters student of it so I can help. However, view some EU provisions in the light of globalist developments. Try to see the bigger picture and who holds the cards.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07 ♂	Mar 6, 10, 20:31 #39
The EU mission in the ME, whether it be Tony Blair's envoy or Sarkozy etc, seems just to be to enjoy 5-star hospitality and top-class resorts in Egypt. Throw Tony Blair into Gaza City and let him walk around by himself. He'd poo his pants in 5 mins. The EU is a corrupt bunch of megalomaniacs who spend most of their time patting one another on the back for the next criminal deed done.

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Edited by: RevokeNice Mar 8, 10, 15:18 #40

MareGaea:

M-G (back to the nucleus of the EU: the original six with the addition of the UK, Danmark and Sweden)

Happy days. There goes over 75% of the EUs fishing waters.

Before anyone starts with the EU gives money bla bla bla. Two words, fishing rights. The same reason a small country known as Iceland, situated in the middle of nowhere in a dire financial position, with a population of just 300,000 is still deciding on EU membership. Unlike the paddys they have not lost their Viking DNA and can fend and stand up for themselves as the weekends referendum showed.

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Mar 8, 10, 17:20 #41

CAN YOU GUYS EXPLAIN THE EU TO ME?

To quote a phrase used by Henry Kissinger, it is a collection of 'useless eaters' who feed at the public trough, pass legislation that only a large team of lawyers can understand, eat lunches and dinners and attend 'meetings and functions' paid for by Euro taxpayers, and rob the treasuries of Germany, France and other productive European countries to pay for wild schemes.

ExiledThreads: 5 Posts: 729 Joined: Jan 17, 10 ♂	Mar 8, 10, 19:45 #42
It is basically an attempt of the middle class to enclose themselves in silver castles.

Peter KRK

Mar 11, 10, 00:46 #43

What's the catch

What's the point to pretend independence when a half of your country transportation is going abroad? Or when 9/10 of your customers are foreighners? Have you been to Benelux before the Maastricht Treaty (currency union)? I saw this poor girls in hotels and shops changing FF to BF, BF to DM or DM to NLG all days and nights. What a nonsense! Do you remember what used to take place on the France-Italy border crossings before Schengen Treaty? Giant traffic jams, fights, protests, helicopters, police attacks. German-Poland border crossings were only a little more paceful. People have forgotten. Yeah. Zapomniał wół jak cielęciem był.
I live 100 km from the border but I use to leave my country 3-5 times a year to do some business or for fun. It is only 1,5 hour to southern or 3,5 hours to western border. I really hated this masquerade performed by the flock of international customers and guards on the border crossings: first clown in green, 2-nd in olive, 3-rd in blue and 4-th in deep katz and they all have a big problem - ME. No, tahnk you boys! Perhaps there are funs of absolute independence but it's definitely not me.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 13:15 #44
Peter KRK: Perhaps there are funs of absolute independence but it's definitely not me Well, "absolute independence" can be achieved, in grave... but even that one is not for sure ;-)

ExiledThreads: 5 Posts: 729 Joined: Jan 17, 10 ♂	Edited by: Exiled Mar 11, 10, 14:21 #45
Watch out for dissolution of EU starting from Greece.Our time has come.We will bury the mthfcks.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 11, 10, 14:28 #46
Exiled: Watch out for dissolution of EU starting grom Greece.Our time has come.We will bury the mthfcks. And then? Whom will you ask for money and help next? Or protest against...or go on strike against....Back to a country of illiterate goat farmers? Your choice...the EU doesn't need Greece, you are barely accounting for 0,8 percent of our GDP!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 ♂ [Suspended]	Mar 11, 10, 14:33 #47
Exiled: Watch out for dissolution of EU starting from Greece.Our time has come.We will bury the mthfcks. Greece has wrecked its own economy, who's going to bail you out if you "bury the motherf*ckers"? While i'm not a big fan of EU Greeks in specific are focked without it.

ExiledThreads: 5 Posts: 729 Joined: Jan 17, 10 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 15:09 #48
I don't mean EU.Now that money flow from EU to middle class will be reduced it is a chance for a blow to somebodies in the interior.

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Mar 11, 10, 15:31 #49

The basic problem with the EU is that the whole project is being carried out without regard to democratic principles. Any votes against a pro-centrism move is ignored.

Final goal: United States of Europe

Means: a mixture of little and big steps

Communication policy: ignore the electorate, shout down MEPs and outsiders who protest by using words like "backward"

Control: maintain internal discipline by giving MEPs and public officials huge incomes and enormous perks

Looking at the above, you can see the similarities with the global warming brigade.

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 11, 10, 15:56 #50

Varsovian:

The basic problem with the EU is that the whole project is being carried out without regard to democratic principles. Any votes against a pro-centrism move is ignored.

How so? Show me a country with a majority against the membership? Everything, from the membership, to the Euro (if adopted) to the European Parliament is strictly about democratic principles...yes, to become eligible to be a member you need to adhere to strict democratic and human rights rules!

Varsovian:

Final goal: United States of Europe

Hopefully!
Our only chance Europe will keep to matter in the coming decades of the huge asian and american powerblocs (not only the US anylonger).
Splintered as Europe is now we will cease to be a global player....everybody of us alone is nothing!

Means:
Communication policy:
Control:

The rest is just opinion, no facts..the specialty of the nay-sayers!

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Mar 11, 10, 16:41 #51

The EU apparatus pretends at times to be a country, at other times not.

There is no functioning auditing body for the EU - they have illegally failed to have their accounts signed off in over 10 years due to poor accounting and fraud. Any officials who complain about fraud automatically get sacked without right of recourse to a court of law - the EU can do this because they ensured that it lies outside of Belgian and French employment law.

The EU has an unelected President - van Rompuy - chosen by France and Germany and a hopeless Foreign Minister - Catherine Ashton - who, unlike Rumpy (ex-PM of Belgium), has never been elected by anyone, anywhere.

There are no EU parties - just loose groupings of national parties. The Constitution was rejected in democratic votes by Holland, France and Ireland and therefore entered into force.

Democratic principles do not mean the tyranny of the majority, but I suppose I'm wasting my breath trying to talk sense to some people.

Oh, finally, about 70% of laws passed in European national parliaments simply transpose EU Directives and Regulations into national law. If they want a country, let's have a vote on it!

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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 11, 10, 19:08 #52

Varsovian:

The EU apparatus pretends at times to be a country, at other times not.

Well, she isn't, she can't and she don't!

Varsovian:

The EU has an unelected President - van Rompuy - chosen by France and Germany and a hopeless Foreign Minister - Catherine Ashton - who, unlike Rumpy (ex-PM of Belgium), has never been elected by anyone, anywhere.

They were elected in the same way as many member states (like Germany for example) choose their presidents too.

Varsovian:

There are no EU parties

You've got to be kidding!
The european Parliament is full of them!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_political_party
Inform yourself BEFORE you post please!

Varsovian:

The Constitution was rejected in democratic votes by Holland, France and Ireland and therefore entered into force.

Last time I looked it was democratically accepted....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon#Ratification

All EU member states had to ratify the Treaty before it could enter into law. A national ratification was completed and registered when the instruments of ratification were lodged with the government of Italy. The month following the deposition of the last national ratification saw the Treaty enter into force across the EU.

Under the original timetable set by the German Presidency of the Council of the European Union in the first half of 2007, the Treaty was scheduled to be fully ratified by the end of 2008, thus entering into force on 1 January 2009. This plan failed however, primarily due to the initial rejection of the Treaty in 2008 by the Irish electorate in a referendum, a decision which was reversed in a second referendum in 2009. Ireland, as required by its constitution, was the only member state to hold referendums on the Treaty. The Czech instrument of ratification was the last to be deposited in Rome on 13 November 2009.[18] Therefore, the Treaty of Lisbon entered into force on 1 December 2009.[19][20]

Varsovian:

Democratic principles do not mean the tyranny of the majority,

Well, as long as the majority get's to decide and you don't share the opinion of the majority you might as well speak of a "tyranny" but it's the best way of government we found to date.
I wonder if you might even less like a REALLY undemocratic...say....King....of Europe who wouldn't even need a treaty!

What we have is by no means perfect...but it's the best we ever had and we all profit from it.
Don't take it for granted! The alternatives would bring nothing better to Europe...

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 11, 10, 19:28 #53
Some interesting reminder to dispell the notion that the EU is something Marsian some Aliens imposed on the poor, unsuspecting Poles...undemocratically! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2973738.stm http://www.poland.gov.pl/Poland%E2%80%99s,way,to,UE,458.html

king polkakamonThreads: 1 Posts: 1,018 Joined: Dec 30, 09 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 20:56 #54
The problems of EU states come from the interior not from the exterior.Basically it is how the elites feel safe playing ping-pong inside EU while keeping the rest in constant move to achieve their(own) stability.

rychlikThreads: 51 Posts: 442 Joined: Aug 6, 08 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 21:32 #55
Do you guys think the EU will try and make Poland into a melting pot like in western Europe?

RevokeNiceThreads: 21 Posts: 2,459 Joined: Jun 20, 09 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 21:35 #56
rychlik: Do you guys think the EU will try and make Poland into a melting pot like in western Europe? of course

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 21:40 #57
rychlik: Do you guys think the EU will try and make Poland into a melting pot like in western Europe? The same as Poles are melting into western Europe countries all the time....

rychlikThreads: 51 Posts: 442 Joined: Aug 6, 08 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 21:40 #58
RevokeNice: of course Hopefully this will not happen too soon.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07 ♂	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 11, 10, 21:46 #59
rychlik: Hopefully this will not happen too soon. What? Poles not being allowed to work in other EU countries? http://www.focus-migration.de/Poland.2810.0.html?&L=1

rychlikThreads: 51 Posts: 442 Joined: Aug 6, 08 ♂	Mar 11, 10, 22:06 #60
Bratwurst Boy: What? Poles not being allowed to work in other EU countries? I was not referring to your last post! Anyways, I don't think too many non-Europeans would be a great idea for Poland.

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