What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

It's been said on the forum by a (thankfully) small percentage (mainly Poms) that some Poles whinge about being hard done by.

If that's the case, could someone point me to what Poland got (ie benefit, or simply commensurate consideration) out of the many wars and struggles that Poland participated in for the benefit of others?

(I've kept the parameters of the second paragraph pretty general, so feel free to respond in kind).

We have some cool Turkish stuff from Vienna at Wawel Castle ;)))

Army practice, LOL

there was really one of those instances in the 1000y of poland an then 300 years or so later poland was paid back by losing territory to the ostriches.

ZA WOLNOŚC WASZĄ i NASZĄ is one of the deeply engrained elements of the Polish heritage. Stopping the Mongolians at Legnica in the 1300s (the Polish leader was killed in the fray, but the Mongolian hordes' advance into the heart of Europe was halted. There was also Sobieski's Vienna and Piłsudski's Miracle of the Vistula (1920) that may well have saved Europe from a Bolshevik bloodbath. If the Brits and Frogs has not been so cowardly and calculating, they might have supported Piłsudski's porposal of a pre-emptive allied strike against the fledgeling III Reich before it rose to power. That could have changed the course of world history by preventing WW2. In WW2 Poland was the first to fight till the last day of ther war. It would take another 44 years before the Poles again saved the eastern half of Europe from continued captive-nation status. The Berlin wall would not have come down were it not for the Polish Solidarity revolution.
What did the Poles get out of it? That sounds like something the calculating Czechs might ask who docilely played ball with Hitler and then with Stalin. As a result Praguie was not levelled to the ground the way Warsaw was.
as a result, Poles are known for their valour, courage, patriotism, pride, loyalty sense of honour and dignity and willingness to help the underdog. Is that a lot or too little? I reckon nations with a shopkeeper's mentality would say it doesn't pay.

yes, but only in Poland ;)

See what unrgateful bastards are the nations the brave Poles have saved or aided!

No really Polonius, that what you just posted was a very Poland-centric view of the history with the Poles as some "Übersaints" and it is no wonder if you compare this view with the general view accepted as mainstream in the world that Poles must feel slighted or disrespected.
It just doesn't match!

You mean the old "Poland: First to fight" line? That isn't actually true is it? Well not unless the currently accepted history of the Gliwice incident is completely wrong and Poland actually did attack that radio tower. If Poland didn't, Poland would be second to fight because Germany attacked Poland and therefore Germany was first to fight.

Either way, Poland was first to surrender.


How do you reach the causal link between Solidarity and the fall of the Berlin wall? You could equally easily say that Solidarity wouldn't have happened without the Hungarian and Czech rebellions. It certainly wouldn't have taken the form it did without those two earlier events and the reaction of the Commies would have been different too.

But don't let little things like facts get in the way of your Christ complex....

Harry is talking about Christ complex :)

I can't be Christ, I'm not Polish.

I'm Buddha.

now theres something that seems to get forgotten

Obviously. "Poland: second to fight; first to surrender" doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it?

that's because if you write in austrian books that Sobieski saved Austria from the turks in 1683 they will ask you why Austria invaded Poland 100 years later, if you write in european books that Poland saved Europe from communism in 1920 they will ask you why nobody helped us, and if you write in british books that Poles saved Britain they will ask why Churchill left Poland to Stalin, so it's just better don't write about Poland in books and this is what they actually do...

Polish Squadrons in Battle of Britain


Monte Cassino 1944 Polish Soldiers




Later there was no place for Polish soldiers on Victory parade ... Sikorski has been murdered.

Be like them without PANGS OF CONSCIENCES.





True.

Yes yes, everybody knows Britian gave Poles the opportunity to fly in our Air Forces and didnt charge for the privilige, nor did we send you a bill for all the planes you crashed after we allowed you to use them to regain some of you wounded pride

And where's the thanks we got?

Actually there was a place for Polish servicemen in the London Victory Parade. Polish airmen from the free Polish forces were invited (even though no other 'free' forces were invited, only invites went to official governments, the airmen got a special honour to recognise their contribution to the war) but they refused to attend because they didn't think enough London Poles were invited. The government of Poland was also invited to send servicemen. They didn't decline the invitation but didn't bother to send any servicemen.

Got to love how Poles refusing to attend despite being specially honoured and Poles just not bothering to show up has become, according to Polish folklore, them being deliberately snubbed by being denied invitations.

Poles, not bothering to turn up...?

Never

A vested interest in its own survival . . . perhaps?

I see that you are Italian - I'd keep out of this since the Italians are hardly know for their valour!

you send us a bill for the equipment we used during the war, i don't know if planes were included.

i'm not Italian, I just live in Italy and I got a lot of offences in my life for beeing a Pole.

Actually the British just passed along the Polish share of the bill which the UK got from the USA. I rather doubt that Poland paid up but I know that the UK was still paying off the USA up until the end of 2006.

For what?

The equipment which its forces used that the British had bought from the Americans (bought but not completely paid for until the year before last).

What countries were defended and/or liberated by Poles who used this equipment?

Poland for one.

Where do you think the Liberator bombers that supplied Warsaw during the uprising came from?

Where did you read this?


... It is also notable for the exclusion of all Polish servicemen; hundreds thousands of whom served in the Polish Armed Forces in the West as one of the largest Allied contingents. The 303 squadron was the only Polish unit invited; it declined because the invitation was not extended to any other Polish unit, despite Poland being the fourth largest European ally during World War II. Poles were expected to attend the Moscow Victory Parade of 1945, and the Allies did not want to antagonize Stalin, whose Soviet Union claimed Poland under their sphere of influence. This is considered one of the causes of the feeling of "Western Betrayal" in Poland


If you mean the 303 squadron, thats far from extending it to "all Polish airmen." I suggest you check your manipulated British sources.




Perhaps there is something deeper than just that, no? Maybe you need to do a bit of reading on the subject before making statements like this one.



We'll know for sure, soon enough. Tests on Sikorski's body should be back before January. Already there are some surprising differences between the British physicians examination decades ago, and results of today.

So can any British national tell me why the British govermnent has 'frozen' the documents pertaining to Sikorski's death for 50 years? If it was just an accident, what do they have to lose? I thought the EU strived for transparency? I guess not.



You do not see the stupidity of such a statement?



You have doubts about this? What happened in Czechoslovakia with the German Sudeten party? What about Austrian anchluss? If you have any doubts whatsoever about Hitlers tactics, I recommend you read up about them.

Much of what is known about the Gleiwitz incident comes from the sworn affidavit of Alfred Naujocks at the Nuremberg Trials. According to his testimony, the incident was organized by Naujocks under orders from Reinhard Heydrich and Heinrich Müller, the chief of the Gestapo.[1]

On the night of August 31, 1939 a small group of German operatives, dressed in Polish uniforms and led by Naujocks[2] seized the Gleiwitz station and broadcast a short anti-German message in Polish (sources vary on the content on the message). The Germans' goal was to make the attack and the broadcast look like the work of anti-German Polish saboteurs.[3][2]

In order to make the attack seem more convincing, the Germans brought in Franciszek Honiok, a German Silesian known for sympathizing with the Poles, who had been arrested the previous day by the Gestapo. Honiok was dressed to look like a saboteur; then killed by lethal injection, given gunshot wounds, and left dead at the scene, so that he appeared to have been killed while attacking the station. His corpse was subsequently presented as proof of the attack to the police and press.[4]

In addition to Honiok, several other convicts from the Dachau concentration camp[2] were kept available for this purpose.[3] The Germans referred to them by the code phrase "Konserve" ("canned goods"). For this reason some sources incorrectly refer to the incident as "Operation Canned Goods."[5]

Hardly surprising given the advances made in all of the sciences since that time.



Probably for good reason - it may well be another 50 years before these documets released.



Naive

Yes, but I meant after only the general examination. No detailed tests have come back yet, that will take a while.



Can you name me one?

100 years, and anyone with a voice against Britain will be 6 feet under. Thats exactly what they want.



Is that not in EU's agenda? I don't believe it, either.

That was Polish Army under the Soviet command.


Do these come even close to the human sacrifice of Polish troops whose struggle to defend Britain, which was effective, unlike, not even halfhearted, token expression of sympathy in the form of a few Liberator bombers dropping supplies within territories controlled by Germans, not Poles?

You have some weird sense of fairness.

I stand by my original comment. What was then considered to be thorough may very well be considered "cursory" by today's standards.



The documents have been destroyed.



There will always be historians seeking answers to questions such as yours.




As I understand it, this statement applies to the EU in its current form - and is not applied retrospectively to its member states; as the EU was not in existence at that time, it would be difficult to enforce. I for one do not care for such socio-politcal statements - I am a cynic and tend to view such as a smoke screen.

If so, why havn't they brought this to the publics attention? It would save everyone a lot of trouble. And why would they have been destroyed in the first place? Wasn't it just an 'accident?' Does the British govermnent make a habit out of burning documents pertaining to seemingly innocent cases like this?




Maybe so. But 100 years is a hell of a long time. British govermnent is very pragmatic in their approach. They realize that by then, these historians will most likely be working independently, and not in state interest. Who cares though? We'll be dead by then anyway, and without answers.



I was being quite cynical in my original statement. Next time I'll put an asterix beside it.

As it happens, they do!



Hindsight is a wonderful thing . . . :)



You? Cynical? Never! You strike me as being wholly earnest in your search for the truth.

- If you consider that the 2 most agressive nations in the world: Germany and Russia border with us... And most of the times they end up going against one another.



- Just to set a record straight: Poles ( and some volunteers from other nations) were piloting those Liberators, England gave up on supporting Warsaw uprising right before it actually started.

Do you like to argue for the sport? If not it's frightening example of twisted logic.


And your point would be ...?


The main difference is that earlier rebellions failed; Solidarity won. And opened doors for others.
Btw. Czech rebellion was not really anti-communist but that's another topic entirely.

You wrote this comment just to write this sentence, didn't you?

I must somehow missed the Poles trampling on the Berliner wall in this days in 1989...were there many taking part in the mondays demonstrations in Leipzig?

Funny thing....Dokus have shown that the east german Stasi would have used military if Moskau had backed them. But Gorbatschow showed them the finger as they begged desperatedly....

So...it's more a matter of russian perestroika than the polish Solidarity that the Berlin wall fell!



Ahem....wanna compare histories of Germany and...say....GB...or France...or Spain....or whatever?



How often was that?

Hmmm not all Germans are like Bratwurst. Some know the truth :

Poster from Berlin

Well...I'm glad that most are not like you Luki! :)

I am not German and I'm glad :)

Okay....and that has to do with this topic exactly what???
Just wanting to vituperate again? The virtual bar is that way....