What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

They want the shield, let them have it.
Why would you, as a German, be bothered? Do you really think that between the two evils Russians are the better option?


Factual. not declared.

We here in Europe (especially Germany) have not much means to get energy but to buy it from foreigners. The need and demand is growing, not to mention that newcomers like China will want more and more too...energy in any form will become a bone of contention in the coming decades.
Now working to secure your sources and also broaden your possibilites while we still can is a smart move.

Environmental concerns must be talked about and recognized and I'm sure they will be cleared up. Stop using these arguments when you in truth mean something else!

If Poland is sitting on riches they could send over they should tell us soon!
Russia is one of the biggest energy supplier and frankly we need them...
Poland should join Germany and the EU or they should offer another energy source instead. But they have nothing else to offer....it isn't as if they live by air - they are taking russian energy quite without any problems too!

Rough translation: you have had enough of being made to look stupid by having your lies exposed with facts that you can not argue with.

Well...I just see it as a perfect example of polish stupidity again, repeating what happend seemingly all over polish history again.

They let themselves be used for american purposes, but have to bear the brunt of the neighbours agression and displeasure.
The US is far away, happy to have a pawn obeying their whims but Poland? Not
only bad relationships with Russia but suspiciously and wary treated by many Europeans who know exactly what's happening - not a good way to secure Poland in the EU, playing the squabbler, the divider, the american foot in the EU door..

Just imagine Cuba would have let installed russian military hardware on their territory...the US was so coool about it, weren't they!

Strick that and look carefully at what you are saying. Harry I feel there may be a medication for your issues. First step is to understand you sound like a mixed up, angry, anti Polish fool that cannot read facts. Please stop spitting lies and trying to get others to hate the way you do.

BBoy, Poland has been blackmailed by the Russians a number of times after it joined EU and then NATO. It took a lot of political wrangling and convincing before EU politicians recognized that Poland indeed had reasons to complain in various areas of trade between Poland and Russia. To you it's unsubstantiated whining, to Poles, and to those in EU who care to look at things closely, it is Poland's legitimate concern.

I understand Germany needs energy supplies. All EU countries do. The problem is with bending over, mostly by the Germans lacking vision. What will Germany do in 50 years when oil and gas are gone?

And if the Russians talk about embargo, well... let them sell their oil elsewhere. We'll see how they'll do. Now is a good time too.



Poland is a small and militarily weak country. What do you suggest? Kiss Russian butt? That's been tried and it didn't work too well. Stupidity would be doing the same thing again and expecting different results. That, it seems, was what Germans did having lost WW1 - they started WW2. Now, how stupid was that?

I REALLY pray to my gods that till then (the sooner the better) we found a viable alternative....really I do!!!

is it worth the cost?

Maybe Poland would if they were not held captive until 1989. In time Poland must come up with alternate energy. Just think if Germany was not alone paying for Holocaust and Russia had to compensate for their part how much better off Germany would be.

WWII was a continuation of WWI with a rest of arms inbetween.



They actually HAVE riches to supply Germany and western Europe???

Hindsights a beautiful thing. The policy of pacification was understandable given that WW1 was a fresh memory. A whole generation wiped out, a local skirmish that became a world war because of alliances and treaties.
Because of restored independence maybe Poles have positive memories of WW1, Brits most certainly didnt as we paid a high price for continental belligerence.
Also the Anglo-Polish Mutual Assistance Agreement is vague as to what type of assistance would be given. There was no promise by either country to take military action against an aggressor in the aid of the other. These were the terms that Poland agreed to and no doubt if the table were turned, the terms that Poland would have followed.

As I've said before Carol: quote a single lie I've told here.

I've been quite happy to point out your lies about Polish concentration camps and British support for Poland during the war.

Both had aggreed that they would cover Poland if Germany attacked. France had a longer history and therefore they had 1921 aggreement already and just updated it.



Even after Poland knew they were betrayed they continued to fight for the very allies that they knew were betraying them. This to me says alot.


From Britian;





And from France;



URL

But you failed to write they were run by Jews.
Isn't how you conveniently offer half truths, and thus end up telling lies.

On the same note, when some Polish citizen of Jewish extraction achieves something positive of note then he is a Jew. But when a Polish Jew runs a concentration camp then he is a Pole.

That sort of twisting is what makes you a liar and a dishonest scribe not worth no more than a spit.

We are not whining about why Britain didn't do more for us as we know perfectly well that they did nothing. Period. We helped them as much as we could and are satisfied with Churchill praise. Victory parade in London would have been nice acknowledgment too but we can survive without.
Harry's position though that we owe Britain some big thank you for just declaring war is just silly.


Oh, do explain that. Maybe I'll learn something more after all.


I think some Austrians may disagree

Oh, really?
Considering that for centuries we were between two over ambitious and hungry for our territory morons we did pretty well after all. Surviving as a nation with our own identity, language, culture and independence is a big deal.
And you, crautie, be better careful with criticizing Poland. I can always ask you which war you ever won with all your superiority in everything.

No... I would never be able to kill a baby, no matter if he turned into a monster.

I would want a full grown, adult Hitler, and then, I would kill him with glee.

check out ww2 behind closed doors on bbc i player dated today on bbc2. it focuses on the soviets trying to cover up the katyn massacre,the warsaw uprising and how basically poland was crapped on and lied to.

If we look on Polish poit of veiw

The best solution to reduce losts in popultion was aliance with Soviets all in all we were under their occupation after 1945 ... If soviets have had conquered europe (France, Spain ect) This system would colapse because it was unefficent. Poland would losse less people and infrastructure would had been in much better condition. After all Soviets had done everything they wanted after WWII.

And tell me Łukasz...

You think that Poles would let the Soviet army just march right on through Poland towards France and Spain? What about Germany?
I for one, would not trust the Soviets in such a pact. A defensive alliance, yes, but not one in which Russia uses Poland as a launching pad for assaults to the west.

Germany would had been conquered as well.

I am thinking only about Polish interests seing what have happened in Poland durring WWII and after WWII.

We would had losse much less Polish people there would be no Hitler in Poland only Stalins troops which we had opportunity to see in 1945. If we had been allied with Soviets this ideaological occupation would had been much softer.

From perspective of Polish interests it was the best solution (in 1939).

Well, its worth giving it a thought. Perhaps yes, it would have been best solution for Poles in 1939. But there was still some animosity felt between the two since Polish-Soviet war. Its much easier talking about it now, then it would have been back then. I'm not sure they would be able to settle their differences for one goal. And I'm also not sure if Poland would be able to provide Stalin with attractive terms in creating such an alliance.

Attack Germany, France, Spain? Soviets would be overstretching themselves, and then we as Soviet allies would pay in counter-attack.
How would they possibly be able to govern over such areas?
History has taught us one thing. It is much easier to attack and defeat an enemy in battle, than to hold onto your conquered land.

And even if this occupation was softer, it would surely be harsh. Look how Stalin treated his own blood brothers...

Of course there was annimosity. I am talking from cold caluclated point of view thinking only about Polish interests. Stalin was likley to enter Poland. Finaly he have done so on his conditions in 1944. If we look on numbers of Poles killed by Hitler every aliance which would help to avoid it was good.

If look on numbers of killed people or Warsaw destroyed in more than 90% ... anny other war couldn't be worst.

If we look on Warsaw uprise it was mistake as well and I am not proud of it.

It is funny that the bigest Polish successes were achieved by dyplomacy and people are proud of Warsaw uprising.

Now we are talking about the past not about current politics.

Were the people who ran the camps all Jews? No, they were not.
Were the people who ran the camps all Poles? Yes, they were.
Are you lying, yet again, when you say that the camps were run by Jews? Yes, you are. What a surprise to see you lying.



To you maybe, to me he's a Pole first and a Jew or a Catholic second (second by a long long way). But just out of interest, how many of 303 Squadron were Jewish?



How is it twisting the truth to say that all Polish concentration camps were run by Poles? Must I add that some of those camps were run by Polish Catholics and some were run by Polish Jews in order to make the statement that Poles ran the Polish concentration camps a true statement rather than a lie?

I think you need to learn what a lie is. Here are some examples of lies:
"Poles were not invited to the London Victory Parade."
"Free Poles were not invited to the London Victory Parade."
"WWII lasted only four years."
"WWII ended on May 8/9 1945."
"You are Jewish" (when said to a person who isn't).
"You are homophobic" (when said to a person who works for KPH).
"There is no such thing in history of WW2 as 1943 Warsaw uprising."
These are some of the lies which you have told on this forum, the lies which you have told in just this one thread!




You mean the parade that representatives of both your offcial government and your free forces were invited to attend? Nice to see that some Poles are still trying claim that Poles weren't invited when the facts very clearly show that they were.



You clearly need to learn about history. Go away and do some research about the first RAF raids of WWII.

What does 'cover' mean?

This is article one of the Anglo-Polish Mutual Assistance Agreement:

"Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power."


There is no promise by either country to take military action against an aggressor in the aid of the other.



The Japanese kept fighting even when they new they'd lost. So did the Germans. Poles werent 'fighting for the allies' anymore than the Brits or Americans were.

An official invitation was sent to the Government in Warsaw. Unfortunately, the British had not noticed, until it was too late, that the Warsaw government had not been Britain's wartime ally.

Shortly after VE-Day the Government in Exile lost its recognition (representation of Poland) by Britain.

A last minute invitation was extended but that invitation was declined.

IMO rightly declined...

This is another example of how Stalin outmaneuvered both Churchill and Roosevelt. The latter doing all he could to undercut his British counterpart up until the day he died.

Another myth shattered.

Correction, the invitation was extended on the eve of the parade.



Source?

You.

Technically you're correct an invitation was extended. Like all complicated matters, when in-depth study is conducted one can see phony that invitation happened to be.

The Government in Exile Poles were not to be recognized for fear of upsetting Uncle Joe.



Warsaw Ghetto April '43.

Incorrect use of quote function.

Source?

But the very simple fact still remains: both representatives of the free Poles and the official government of Poland were invited to the parade and neither bothered showing up.

I guess we can go there. "Cover" would mean, respond and help Poland with "all the support and assistance in it's power". I don't feel this was done and IMHO Poland should have been informed that (for whatever reason) help was not forth coming.

Thats an opinion, not a fact. We could argue that Britain actually did much, much more than was required as the agreement was for 'support and assistance' and therefore didnt require Britain to lose its pre eminent position in the world by declaring war on the largest and arguably strongest nation in Europe in the cause of a minor central European nation. Its seems that many Poles on here dont see the war as anything other than a battle for Polish soveriegnty

You need to remember that many Poles think that Copernicus was completely wrong. Copernicus thought that the earth goes round the sun. In reality both the earth and the sun (and the rest of the universe) revolve around Poland....

France and Britian were also concerned. With Poland being attacked first did not mean Nazi's were going to stop with them. We must not forget that at this point no one was aware of the secret pack between Hitler and Stalin. When I was reading up on meetings with Moscow and Britian about Poland, Moscow remained un commited. Of corse France, Britian and Poland had the major concern for self.

I guess it comes down to did France and Britian reaction live up to the contract? IH don't know, like you said, there was more going on than meets the eye.

Could Poland have reacted differently, sure they could have turned over the property being asked for by Nazi. That would not have changed a thing. Hitler and Stalin were taking her anyway.

For all who doesn't know or doesn't understand history, especially for Harry. This is not about - earth and the sun (and the rest of the universe) revolving around Poland... this is about true, very sad true.
And definitely there was more going on then meets the eye. Think about it.



The Betrayal of Poland 1939-1945

By Patrick Joseph Buchanan who was a senior advisor to American presidents Richard Nixon, Gerald Fox, and Ronald Reagan.

---

For all who thinks that British guaranties to Poland were unclear -

British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain stated in the House of Commons on March 31, 1939.




Having secured a guarantee, the Poles now took steps toward coordinating their defensive preparations with the British. On April 4, 1939, Poland's Minister of Foreign Affairs, Józef Beck visited London for talks with Prime Minister Chamberlain and Lord Halifax, the Foreign Secretary. The content of these talks was described in an official communiqué sent from London to Warsaw on April 6th:



Formal Agreement



I WONDER WHAT KIND OF HELP THEY MEANT?

go and see the british and comonwealth war cemeterys thats what kind of help they meant.

I'm surprised that Buchanan who stand for military isolationism admits that FDR indeed betrayed Poland.

I'm not... he's a Republican. ;-)

You clearly need to stop being ridicules on top of ridicules. RAF did nothing until 1940. Unless you did some secret bombing in September 1939 nobody knows about.