"Poland's Concentration Camp"???

I was talking about 1930s and we know that it wasn't just religon in this time. Jewish socialists form Bund (mentioned before) were not religous. They considered Yiddish language as something what gave them unity.

As to Jews and Harry,

Wife of our Minister Sikorski Anne Applebaum has Jewish origin.

I was laghing when German foreign affairs minister visited Poland with his wife and they all were sleeping in Skorskis house. Funny situation from historical point of view.




lets leave it in this way.

What's so funny?

PS: Abour the polish BUND


...doesn't sound sorbish either...compare that with Hochdeutsch:

"Allgemeiner jüdischer Arbeiter Bund in Lite (Litauen?), Polen und Russland"

It wasn't malicious remark. For me it is funny form historical point of view. IMO it is time to move forward and it is let say good sign.




link I have posted is with Jewish thoughts about their origin. They make DNA tests compare it to some nations and they have some ideas.

Ask them about their theories.

(Doron M. Behar,1,* Mark G. Thomas,2,* Karl Skorecki,1 Michael F. Hammer,4
Ekaterina Bulygina,2 Dror Rosengarten,1 Abigail L. Jones,2 Karen Held,2 Vivian Moses,2
David Goldstein,3 Neil Bradman,2 and Michael E. Weale2
1Bruce Rappaport Faculty of Medicine and Research Institute, Technion and Rambam Medical Center, Haifa, Israel; 2The Centre for Genetic
Anthropology and 3The Centre for Population Genetics and Human Health, Department of Biology, University College London, London; and
4Division of Biotechnology, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ)

Nah...you will be sufficient for me! :)

nah you are interesting as well ;) because when you talk about Jews and Yidish you talk like Russians on this forum about Germans...

do Germans look up on Jews ?

Hehe! :-) Well hey...I am an American / Polish citizen of 67% Polish and 33% Ukrainian ethnic roots, born in the USA, whose father (Polish and Ukrainian roots) is Greek Catholic and mother (100% Polish) Roman Catholic. I usually say I'm a Catholic for all intensive purposes, one and the same with slightly different traditions, since both adhere to the Vatican, currently living in Poland, and a very proud Pole, but my heart and soul also love "Kresy" (former Eastern Polish lands) and the rich history of Poland. Is this a sufficient enough definition of one's nationality? Places like Tarnopol, Lwów, Rohatyn, Brzeżany, Skałat, Krzemieniec, Tręmbowla are simply an integral and amazing piece of Polish history and culture. Talking about a mix of King Sobieski and Taras Bulba!!!

Cheers,

Scorpio

Because deep down he admires the Poles and he knows he can never be one, so he finds what he can in his spare time to 'shock' us with. Harry is a spiteful Pom who I suspect somewhere in his past was jilted by a Pole and this is his 'revenge' - and how sweet it is too - trying to get us all afret about Polish concentration camps.


you need a girlfriend (it'll focus your mind on other things), but judging by the way you speak to ladies on this forum that'll be difficult.

In any event, no one here has to admit anything about your so called concentration camps, least not to you. They had nothing to do with you, your family aren't Polish, and you certainly don't qualify as a person to whom recognisance should be delivered.

Here's a lesson for you - when you address Poles, do so with respect, and especially when addressing females, because Poles, unlike your kith and kin, treat women with respect no matter what.

Here's another one - if you want recognisance, address it to the people who should be giving it. Dunno about your line of thinking, but it's pretty clear to me there aren't any Polish commo apparatchiks here.

Here's the last one - communism was forced onto Poland. No popular mandate equals no popular liability, no matter how hard you try. Simple really. Polish blame shifting you say? Could be, but as a legal/political nuance, it outflanks your proposition.

Facts taken in isolation mean nothing - try contextual analysis. Sorry - forgot you don't need to when writing penny a pound tourist flyers.

read this text about Poles and Israel. (in Polish)

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/135311.html

a lot of them still hold Polish flags on their houses in Israel they visit Poland and invest here. Some of them were Polish nationalists ... and are angry that Lwow and Wilno are not in Poland.

(harry go to tlanslator and and read this text)



The fact is that all elites in Israel are Polish Jews.

so Polish Israel realtionship are complicated. Jews from this article joke form Polish-Jewish argues and call it childish. Jews love to argue and complain like Poles. They call their own country balagan(from different article) and it is Polish word and means "mess".

as I have said case is complicated (noticable on this forum)

No...not really...most can't just be arsed with anything jewish...but real hard-core anti-semites are just marginal too...

That is so true.

Question is: what will happen to that country when all of those men simplyv have die-off?! XXI'century's nation of Israel is nothing but spoiled brats with guns, ZERO of intelligence and HATE towards the whole World.

XXI to you: Israeli retards and American Israeli retards and simply dumb American retards, means: TWENTY FIRST (th).

I hope that Isrealis will find compomise with Palestinians becuse everybody needs place to live.

and don't worry about them.

Well done! He did go to university. Graduating in 1938, he would have been forced to sit on the ghetto benches in the segregated lecture halls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto_benches But he missed the limits on the number of Jewish students because those were only introduced for 1937 entry onwards. Apparently he had an L.L. M. but that does not mean he is a lawyer, it just means he has an advanced degree in law. To be a lawyer he would need to be admitted to practice and join the bar association. Which he could not have done, seeing how he was a Jew and the bar association refused to admit Jews from 1937 onwards.


Guess again. I can get a Polish passport any time I want. All I need to do is apply and it’s mine.


We’ve already been through this. I wasn’t born in England, neither were my parents or any of my grandparents.


Carol’s no lady. Carol’s a bigot.
I’m got a girlfriend thanks. Same one for the past ten years. And yes she is Polish.


Have you been to Poland ever? Let’s play a guessing game: which country has the highest rate of domestic voilence? Is it a) Britain, b) Australia, or c) Poland?


So not one single Pole ever assisted the communist regime? No Poles ever joined the Communist party? All Poles always fought communism all the time (apart from when they invaded Czechoslovakia anyway)?

so how it is possible that we had Jewish lawers and doctors in Poland.

so why he moved back with his family form Russia to Poland. why Jews were escaping Germany and going to Poland. Why Jews in 1950s had the same more problems in USA than Jews in Poland in 1930s. Why you moan so much when Poland holded in prisons people who didn,t want Jews on univesities. Why some Polish Jews hold Polish flags on their homes in Israel ? Why French people were packing Jews to trains to Auschitz and Hungarians were paying Germans to kill Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews



were Jews not smart enought to study on American Univerisites? Maybe you will bring some victims of Polish medieval knights ? And tell us that in 21st century it would never happen.

this is interesting part of your link:



as to your other posts bring stats !



no body said that, the fact is that we wouldn't have communism in Poland without Russian soldiers.

You've been trumped and your arguments are now becoming tiresome and desperate Harry. Many people here have shown you up for the sensationalist and virulent bigot you are.

You're a smart guy - my post was pretty clear and you know the answers, though the questions you posed are tangential to the nub of my proposition (we all know obtuse responses are a sign of evasion so you fool no one).

Today's paper FYI

Poland opposes ‘Polish concentration camps’

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/human-interest/?id=82728

I remember reading that in my version. I'm not saying you're wrong, Harry. He recently updated the books and perhaps that was omitted in an earlier release but I do recall reading about that letter, although, I don't have the book in front of me.

Rough: translation = you have been wrong about every assumption you have made about me so now you try to paint me as a bigot to cover your own desperate exit. Point to just one single fact which I have posted here which is not true, I challenge you.
I admit that Jews were evil both during and after the war. I admit that the British could have done more. I admit that the RARAF could have done more. But still to you I’m a bigot, because I will not agree that the Poles were entirely and completely innocent.

You claim that my arguments have been trumped. By whom? An anonymous wikipedia writer vs. the US library of congress: who to believe. A bigot who says that even if Poland ran concentration camps pre-war, he’s proud because they locked up Commies, or Norman Davies: who to believe?

You call me a bigot but fail to question any of my historical facts. You insult what you think is my race but your racist assumptions are flawed. Here’s the rub for you ‘Ozi’ I hold an Australian passport but unlike you I choose not to remain in a nation which suppresses the indigenous people. You however remain in a racist nation. So you tell me: who’s the bigot?

Rough translation: If you love Poland so much. why aren't you here fighting to make it a better place to live?

we need to fight to make the whole world a better place to live.. the way its
going now, everyone fighting ( at each others throats )in a forum doesnt do much
justice either.

I really didnt see anyone say I love poland, more or less I think people are
interested for their own reasons..

and maybe in some way eventually those interested will do something to help
in those areas that need it..

I think alot of us have a hard time swallowing the bad things, negative, as real
as they are, just like anyplace else,... but it also is hard to swallow things
about your own country too, and I suppose the feelings they experienced
are as real to them as our world/life is as real to us and that we dont feel this
way because we live it.

anyway, prob off topic but just feeling like we should all meet somehow in
the middle.. I think that would make it a better place.

In the absence of any indication, and based on your veiled comments as to your mysterious persona, one's only left to assume - I still say you're a Pom. Or perhaps you're an Aussie, seeing as you 'hold' a passport. Whatever.

I don't need to paint you as a bigot. I merely pointed it out to you, as your words here convey it plainly. You're a bigot for your own beliefs and a bigot against Poland and more particularly against it's people.

The issue isn't about the 'facts' you post, because that's not what you're doing. You are making allegations and cherry picking to suit your contentions.



Your admissions on other issues have nothing to do with your position on Poland, so what's your point? The above argument is akin to saying "I have Jewish friends, therefore I can't be anti semitic".



You say the Polish people have to take responsibility for these so called concentration camps. I point out that the prisons were run by the communists. Communism had no popular backing - it was enforced by an alien power, and facilitated by a minority of "Polish" scumbags. Polish people can't be held responsible for it - it's anathema to the concept of popular government. Your argument might have held some water if it was a democratic government at the time, but it wasn't, the implication being that the individual is responsible in a notional sense for the actions (good or bad) of the government they elected.

Your argument may also have held some water if you had pointed out any benefit derived to the Polish people in general, with such benefits had by virtue of the operation of the camps - the rationale being that you profit from misery, you be responsible when called to account. This didn't happen either, did it Harry.

I confirm your argument is trumped, unless you can counter my proposition.



Oh - so now you're the mouthpiece of the US Congress Library and of Norman Davies. I shudder at your lack of shame. Norman Davies at least has the academic impartiality to temper his contentions with historical context.



As I've said before, facts without analysis and context mean nothing. Facts, when you mesh them with opinions, as you've done to create your own agenda, lose their authority and meaning.

For example: - FACT- camps in Poland post WW2. OPINION - Polish people must be responsible for that.

All I've done is counter your opinion with facts of my own - I don't need to challenge your 'facts'. You'd have to agree opinions give way to facts.



My FACT: the Australian Prime Minister and Labour government recently apologised to the aboriginals in a lengthy and pretty exhaustive "sorry" speech.

FACT: the Aboriginal population enjoys a degree of autonomy to conduct their own affairs. They have legal remedies if they are of the view that they are suffering from oppression. True it is to say that the High Court said that their traditional land ownership rights under customary law must give way if they impinge on the Common Law of Australia.

My OPINION: Sure, there may be elements of supression, but because you failed to give me any FACTS to support your OPINION on this point, I could be here forever speculating and assuming what you mean - this is an issue we've had before, isn't it Harry?

Your FACTS: Nil

Your OPINION: Aussie's are racist and by reason of my remaining here, me too.



Need I?



I don't have the means or opportunity to do so unfortunately. The 'war' I 'fight' is against people such as yourselves. You attack, I defend. Your petty, yet quite poisonous, insults and allegations against Poles are not to my taste. When all is said and done, history is all that's left, and I don't want some kid who comes on here to research his/her heritage to read comments from you or your ilk and take them at face value.

Well said and well done, Thank you.

And this Harry seems to be your goal, "deliberate attempt to offend" vs. any lack of knowledge.

"The deputy ambassador of Poland to the Netherlands Artur Habant said that the mistake was rather a result of lack of general knowledge than a "deliberate attempt to offend"

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/human-interest/?id=82728

It is fascinating how you are obsessed with my race. You seem certain that knowing my race would tell you something about me. That is because you are a racist.


It’s not a belief against Poland: it is the knowledge that Poland ran pre and post-war concentration camps. The belief is that a lot of Poles need to face up to the facts of what they did and stop painting themselves as eternal victims.


Fact: this thread is about “Poland’s concentration camp”. Fact: pre-WWII Poland ran a concentration camp. Fact: post-WWII Poland ran a number of concentration camps. Fact: the Polish government attempts to hide the existence of such.



I’m sorry, I didn’t realise that the Communists were in power in Poland before WWII. but clearly they must have been because the pre-war camp was, according to you, run by communists.
BTW: nice attitude that communists can not be Poles. How many members did the Communist party have in Poland?


Well that logic certainly is hard to argue against. But by your logic the German people bear no responsibility for the holocaust: they never elected the Nazis. The NSDAP never won more than a third of the vote in free elections; even after they had taken power and banned their main opposition, they didn’t receive the support of the majority of German voters.


More logic by which you absolve the German people from bearing any responsibility for the holocaust. What benefits did they derive from killing all those Jews?


You’re completely right: I’ve been entirely trumped and you have proved that the German people never bore any responsibility for the holocaust. Although you probably think that Hitler had the right idea but was just an under-achiever, eh Dan?


I am simply repeating what they say: that pre-WWII Poland ran a concentration camp.


How about this: fact Poland ran pre and post-war concentration camps. Analysis: Polish people operated the camps and Polish governments ordered them to be run.


So who does take responsibility for the actions of Polish people?
You miss two tiny little points: firstly there was a concentration camp in pre-war Poland; and secondly, some of the camps in Poland post-WWII were run by Poles on the orders of a government composed of Poles.


Of course you do. You can save up, buy a one-way plane ticket and get a job here.
Oh, sorry, of course you can’t. You’re just a kid living at home with his parents.


The statement that Poland ran pre and post-war concentration camps is not an allegation: it is a matter of historical fact.


Here speaks the voice of experience, eh kid?


Because they were allowed to join before 1937. As my post says.

Does he call prison "Concentration camp" ? Where 15 people from 20 000 priosners died (in 5 years time). Looks like rate of deaths was lower than in modern western prisons.
Does he call camps build by Russian NKVD - Polish ? Where Polish peope who fighted against nazis were brutaly murdered by new Polands occupator.
Does he try to say that communism in Poland was Polish people choice ?
What should we face ?

Yes some people die in prioson. This year Romanian criminal died in Polish prison. One Polish priosner commited suicide. Three had heart atack and died as well. lol.

Russian idiot.

It has nothing to do with any sort of obsession. You could clear it up quite easily by telling us where you're from. Again, you draw a conclusion based on nothing. This is getting bizarre.



When did the argument switch to pre war 'camps'? Can't you digest what I have said about responsibility and blame apportionment?



So what? Is this what you're all upset about? We're sorry Harry - please forgive. Relative to the atrocious things other countries were doing at the time, I don't think too much sleep will be lost.



Nice attempt to obfuscate Harry. Off topic entirely and a bit like comparing apples with lemons too. Hhmm - deaths of several millions of people through a systematic campaign of annihilation v. prison camps: well, you see the difference. Disingenuousness in the extreme.



See above. You want to argue these points, start a new thread. I'll be happy to oblige. Metaphysical debates are great.



Again, you shift the boundaries, and then use the new boundaries to cry foul and push an argument on a slant that wasn't being discussed. Lame. Have some self respect.

Repeating - that's all you're good for. BIG DEAL.



Well, you've been bested by a brat in pampers then, haven't you. Thanks for the free ammunition on that one mate.



And it's an experience I'm sure you'll learn from - just call me Doogie Howser - smartest kid on the planet.

Don't mean to offend Harry, but further comment is just trammeling old ground.

Now, back to your tourist flyers Harry. The Warsaw tourist kiosk is out of your black and white photocopied , 20 point font, misspelt, wonky formatted, dot matrix printed, British stag party guides. I have it on good authority that the last 9 of 10 that you left there 2 years ago were used to scrape the dog excrement off a passing drifter's shoe - apparently, that's all they were good for.

Finally. You agree that Poland did indeed run a pre-war concentration camp. Pity that you can't actually apologise for it.

I suggest you run along like a good little boy. Don't forget to save your pocket money so you can one day visit the country you pretend to belong to and claim to fight a war for. You sad-act t***.

Speaking of "sad-act t***" how are you Harry?



Funny he did, why I don't know because I feel you are in fact the one that owes many an apology. Why do you deny being a Russian Harry?

Largely because I have never been to Russia, neither have my parents, nor my grandparents.

Why do you claim to be Polish Carol? You weren't born here and neither were your parents.

Yes my father was born in eastern Poland. You are right about me, I was born in the USA due to "Communist" takeover of Poland.

Why Jews called Poland ... their paradise?
I agree Poland was not perfect. but in comprison to other countries ... Jews called Poland their paradise.

"Concentration Camp" - name suggests it is a temporary facility to hold a group of people. Name is not implying for it to be a detention or prison. In our painful history we Poles associate it with atrocities; this causes misunderstanding between disputants here. Nothing wrong with that after all in heated, and often off topic squabble (?), everybody learns.
Auschwitz/Oswiecim main camp (these is unchecked information I remember from my father) was originally build as an Austrian military facilities, after Treaty of Versaille buidings were used by some Polish Army unit. Germans expanded it in 1940 and from then on it became famous.
After the WWII Polish authorities were operating it as a prison. As of today KZ Auschwitz it is still being operated by Polish authorities.
Thus, how to name it to avoid confusion? It would not be known if not for Germans converting it to the Auschwitz KZ, it was located in Germany (annexed by the 3rd Reich), it was designed as a KZ and administered by the Germans. There should be no doubt that Germans were responsible for what was done there between 1940 and January 1945.
In any discussion, the point shoud not be to prevail, but by using ones knowledge to educate others, and oneself in the process. It assumes some good will and willingness to learn by both sides. Prerequisite is that both parties know something and are interested in the topic being discussed. Thats why my usual reaction is not to react and let ignorant live in their happy stupidity, it does not harm me and I have no obligation to teach anyone (how selfish).
Harry, it is not directed to you. I found your, however fierce fights, very interesting, and it is because of your comments I writing this. For a long while you were not disclosing your nationality and I enjoyed trying to guess. I did not read all the comments (time). I am sure you find Poles to be chauvinistic and this is true. You have to forgive us for that, but this was what allowed us to survive as a nation against all odds. I assume you live in Warsaw now, since you mention US Embassy in Aleje Ujazdowskie. What a crime it was to build this monstrocity in one of the nicest parts of town. It makes me want to start the Auschwitz again to put an architect (if there was one) and people who approved it there. My hope is that some terrorists are reading this and will get an idea of blowing it up as soon as possible.
General question: Are Jews a nation or is it a religion? I am confused myself. It would be a good new tread, I think.

Because I qualify for seven different passports, I tend not to think of myself as any nationality. I fail to understand why people think that the place they were born, or where their parents were born, in any way identifies them or gives them any identity.


No it isn't. Some Poles are chauvinistic, some are not. But some of every nationality are chauvinistic and some are not.


That is true.


Again, very true. But the way in which the property was taken from the owner is also a crime, and one in which the government of the USA took part.


The architect was Zbigniew Karpinski, the same genius who designed the Eastern Wall complex which runs up the side of Marszalkowska opposite the Palace of Culture.


Don't joke about that. I've always been worried about the security procedures at the embassy, or the consulate to be more exact. Because of the way that everybody who interviewed for a visa has to come back at the same time at the end of the day to collect their decisions, every day there are a good 50 to 100 people standing outside the building at the same time. All it would take is one suicide bomber in a van and most or even all of them would be dead.