Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

For us???
Are you really sure there are no Poles interested in low-cost cars?
My Polish friends are of different opinion

truhlei

according low-cost cottages :))))


I was just checking If you are as good in business as it is considered in Poland. LOL

Now I know why you are so disappointed by democracy and capitalists in '90s :))))

I just imagine western managers coming to your country and tellling nice stories :)))

I know stereotypes about Poles in Russia (calculating, ungrateful, cold, greedy) now I think it is possible we look so in comparison to you :)))

I just think about selling my business in Poland and moving to Russia to do business there :)

And theory about good nation leaded by bloody regime is true. Look as in 1917, now truhlei is living in virtual world created by some dictators like Putin. And with all symphaty to russians ;) we are not going to be submisive in relationships to Putin and his poor manipulated nation (they realy think they are deffnding their country by killing EU citizens or blackmailing)

I killed nobody in my life. Including EU citizens. Please mention at least 5 EU citizens killed by Russia.

Virtual world doesn't subordinate to Kremlin. Internet is free in Russia. I can receive all information about the EU I want. My close relative visits EU states 20 times a year by being top manager of a firm.
We see a real world and you hear only the facts you want to hear.
You are speaking about democracy without any attention to the fact the precesely democratic elections oblige Kremlin to be more agressive toward EU.

There are few stereotypes about Poland in Russia because Russians today have very few information about Poland and very few contacts with Poles.
Calculating? Nothing of the sort. Germans have such reputation.
Greedy? That is also the reputation of West Europeans.
Ungrateful? That is the opinion of some historians. Not of ignorant people. I think Germans may think so. As to Russians, they don't have their own experience by lack of contacts.

Those who have contacts with Poles in firms working here have quite a different impression. They say Poles don't have the same high lewel of self-organization as Germans and that they are looking for easy and sometimes doubtful ways to survive.

As to me, my stereotype isn't common with the majority of Russians. I'm among some millions of Russians who have Polish-speaking and Roman Catholic ancestors left for Russian lands in 19 and early 20 century.
People like me from mixed Polish-speaking - Russian marriages are educated in respect toward Polish-speaking ancestors. That respect appeared among their Russian relatives: wives, husbands. And (very unfrequent thing in Russia) among sons and daughters in law.
If szlachta was of some 10-15% on Crown and Litwa, in Russian lands nearly 95% belonged to very little szlachta. By the end of 19 century they were like British Victorians. Not their manners were first highly estimated by Russian relatives. High moral lewel was their main asset.
Well... Imagine what impression of Poland today can have such person as I

What is your business?

That wasn't western capitalism of its developing period of the first half of 20 century. Socialist Soviet Union had to experience Ford T and Levittown low-cost cottages that were one of the most important conditions for the formation of today western society.
Many protests in Hungary now show that even within EU people feel the necessity of low-cost by receiving an average salary of USD 700 only.
Politicians in the West received today society as heritage and they don't want to know anything about the elements that made it possible years ago. They want the rest of the world only to copy their today life.

I'm weak in business. I only know that low-cost is technologically possible. That the variety of cottage and vehicles models doesn't permit great price reduction. I only know that today low-cost is possible only in case of its global production. Period of peoples's cars is in the past. Multinational low-cost car models are only possible now as well as multinational module cottages. Now the research can take less money and doesn't influence in final price if low-cost is produced in some 100 million and more copies.
That process requires a coordinator. EU bodies can assure the protection and propaganda of such research and reject the resistance of many manufacturers that aren't interested to be in competition with low-cost.

Oh, here comes my Russian buddy Truhlei. Nice to see you again. Have you got Davies's God's Playground already? Right now I'm reading Pushkin's poetry (in Russian) and his stories (in English translation). Sorry for cutting in like that, I just wanted to say hello and really nice to see you.
;)

Puzzler,

I left a great amout of posts especially for you since page 12.

Have you read Szlachcic Zawalnia by Jan Barszczewski?

Not yet. I'll do that. But don't forget^ many people all over the world can'r read thei book because it is out of Internet. Copyright is a good thing but sometimes it can damage History

Read Captain's daughter. The novel was previous to Sienkiewcz books. It seems to be of the same dtyle. I'm sure H.S. read it

That never occures.

Lukasz I'm in opposition to Russian authorities today. Not to Presidential status because his status is the only thing that can unite all Russians i.e. people of very different views.
I'm liberal in internal affairs. I also defend the principle of future Russian permanent military neutral status (like Sweedish one). Russia has to withdraw all its troops from other states and concentrate its attention in the defence of its own territory only, abandoning all military unions with other states because these unions are quite expensive for Russia and not efficient.
I'm sure Russia should ignore US provocations and protest only by words. Sooner or later USA will spend all its force teaching democracy in Iraq or Iran and miltipolar world will come.
These are my ideas. Some 30% of Russians can share them just now.

But I hate those who teach Russians from a secure distance as they taught AK earlier.
I hate those who received democracy as heritage and don't know its mechanisims. Those who give Russians absurd advices and considers that everything depends upon the process of votation.
I hate those who support today Russian "opposition" of Kasparow & Kasianow because such support is very similar to Soviet support of Communist parties in the West. This opposition is marginal. Besides that some of them use National-Bolshewick Party of Limonow (nazi-communist in my opinion) because they don't have enough agressive members and Limonow's fellows are in my opinion like SA in Germany.

All your posts show you take information from such mass media as Wpost for example. Loosers are sent to Russia to write about our reality. Very few specialists such as A. de Lasari are experts but they stick more to cultural issues. Nie is out of critics. To receive defence from them is worse than condenetions from the others.
The way Polish journalists describe Russia is subordinated to their own complex. They look for poor people in the province and listen to their sad stories about poverty. Nobody notices they are lumpens.
As to politics, only stereotypes are repeated. All journalists think all depends upon President in Russia and all depends upon a good choice of a man to this post. That is quite a totalitarian way of thought. People surrounding President and many chiefs downstairts are very interested in this. They don't limit themselves by subordinating and do much despite orders but they are always ready to make a presidential sacrification, to detrone him if necessary (or if he starts controling them) and to show themselves as executive only, as people who onle filfilled orders. The same thing was in 1917. That was by the way the reason why Poland didn't receive independence as promiced in 1914 and became socialist.
An approach like Japanese one of 1945 (King is innocent servants will pay for all) is required in today Russia. That will be the beginning of democratic changes.
But that is rather complicated for narrow minded Polish journalists sent to Russia. They repeat marasmatic ideas of other mass media. It is rather dangerous for reputation and career to contradict worls mass media.
I'm also mass media servant. I know this

The EU is looking for common Enemy. It is quite uneasy to make a European community without this element. New approaches are required. What for? If eurobureaucrat can receive a great salary using the exploitation of old fears. Are they interested in democratic and peaceful Russia? No. In this case they will become unable to keep European attention away from their problems.
We mentioned low-cost as one element only. The situation is rather marasmatic here ans millions of people may feel that. But low-cost means hard activities and possible confrontation with today manufacturers.
Confrontation with Russia is better.
As to Russia, the same thing. Lots of polititians who exploit old stereotypes. They are quite rich to share the interests of the men in the street. For them it is more easy to use obsolete slogans about superpower and past victories (they won't pay their own blood for next victories). They are quite invulnerable becaude the use US precedents in Iraq and EU in Kosovo. They are going to spend the rest of Russian resources for new battles. They all hate middle class because these people may become free and work as in the West and in this way to keep away from inferiority complex. But that will be the end of slavery and magnate dominium.
The only way is to separate middle class (some 20% of population) and to create irregular service for them. In this case businesmen, managers, public sevants military officers and law enforcement bodies officers, i.e. middle classers well feel themselves together and some independence upon magnates. Besides that such Organization will prevent Praetorian rebels and politics in defence of lumpens. That will make many reforms possible because now they aren't carried out by fear that magnates KGB and militars may rebel.
Those who gain money and serve to society will be able to defend themselves.
That was the best way to democracy in European and American history. Consult historians if you have doubts. Besides that extremism never won in stater with irregular bodies.
And what do I hear from the West? I hear that ruling circles should have a zooligic duty to take care of human rights. A crazy idea. Papers and freedoms in papers mean nothing (as well as oppositions and elections) if middle classers don't know how to defend themselves.

Your posts show that you can't imagine a state of 142 mln residents it a great territory isolated from EU and quite invulnerable. Only balance of forces can give freedom. Not a crazy liberast opposition but new structures and a real army (irregular) of middle classers. Only in this case Russia will become softer and concentrated in economic development. Only in this case Russia will be able to survive next gas prices fall without damage to its citizens and neighbours. Only in this case it will become neutral and indifferent.
As to Western mass media, nothing of similar analysis you can read. Only stereotypes. So don't repeat.

Ok truhlei

I see you have positive attitude towards Poland.

So I will give you personal advice. Never count on others, you can get some help but the most important thing is hard work. To be honest nobody will give you "low cost cottages" for free, to make Russia stronger, you should take your opportunity coming from gas and petrol for develpoment. Educate your kids, make taxes lower, promote succesful people (in positive way), And try to change your coutry yourself, invest your money, run your own business, and vote for change. Putin is old KGB spy, you dont need that kind of leader.

You dont have real opposition ?

So why dont you try to make your own political party, when you think that 30% of your society wants liberal Russia living in pace.

No body will do it for you, your own society must do it. And just try to do it, and you will see why we consider Putin as authorative ruler ... Yes try to make local commiety for democracy in Russia, or liberal Russia, you will see ...

Russia needs an intouchable and irresponsable President (terms of Polish Constitution of 1791 you are so admired).
To make the rest touchable and responsable.

You don't read my posts. I wrote that coordination may be in EU or USA. Because such priojects can't be national. That is ab obsolete approach. Why are you again back to the idea that low-cost is smth. like present. You are so charmed by EU present that keep your attention away from the necessities of Poles?

These things are on now. Stimulated by Putin. There are some dissapointed people away but 80% of Russians are for today changes despite many negative points

Well I'll answer. I'm 43. Some 17 years I spent only to learn mechanisms of democratic process. Reading and studying European and American past. These lessons don't come from the West. We, the Russians have to learn ourselves democratic technologies Europeans forgot.
That requires much years.Notice: I don't mention the lack of money and the fact that it is very uneasy to find support of ruling circles. That is my problem.
I only mention that many Russian years are lost for the study of democratic technilogies that should be in many books but in reality are only in RP history.

Try to read I wrote to you and you will see why we consider EU as hostil organization.

Golden words for a primitive indian from Amazonas...
Do you really think Russians are still waiting smbd will help them? What is it? Superiority complex or you want to repeat the words Poles heared in Bonn 15 years ago?

Limonow's National - Bolchewick Party banner. These are those who form opposition with Kasparow. You are admired by this union. The banner doesn't seem similar to anything?

9_5_nk16.gif

truhlei, make your own liberal party, You said that there is about 30% support for real liberals, and they dont have party to vote. 30 % it is good groud ... Why dont you try ?

according EU if you think it exists only because of Russian thread ... no comment.

Lukasz,

I gave you my vision on today Russian situation. My view of the possible ways to reach democratic progress in the state.
I told you something about how I understand democratic theory in general as well as the secure base of free society. I spent much time describing all this.
Yes, I may be wrong. I'm looking for criticism because that can perfect my vision.
Tou didn't analyse my ideas. You didn't look for weak points or contradictions.
The only thing you did was teaching. Using common words any European can tell some african pagan tribe.
What does it look like?

The second question:
If you have such opinion on Russians, why you hate millions of Poles. We are discussing low cost that is also necessary for many Poles?
Do you really thenk an old Polish woman may buy a 2500 USD second-hand and repair it later?
Do you really think each Pole prefers working abroad even if a cottage for his family is available while he works at home? Do you really think Everybody wants to pay 25 years for a little flat in case if a 17000 cottage is available?

EU servants can live easier while they exploit fears. That is what I said. It was written that efficient work for EU people and new approaches are more difficult. Read that again.

I'm trying to do that. But the technology should be unusual for you.
Tell me about your work and I'll give you some marasmatic examples of opinions how to make this business. That will help you to understand me what I mean while discussing Polish mass media about Russia.
By the way the translation of Polish articles about Russia and making it public among Russian internet users is supported by Russian officials.
They want Russians to know what is written about their state. You think Russian authorities keep criticism in secret from society...
The vice versa. They do their best to let Russians know. Western mass media read by Russians is the best Russian govermental propaganda.

Trabant a low cost vehicle will be set in production again to satisfy african people needs.